Perhaps the reason for this sudden appeal requires some simple explanation: I'm skipping work today due to a mystery illness that appears to have yesterday's two doctors without an answer and has found a total of six doctors unwilling to give a specific diagnosis. To the one hand, it's kind of intriguing watching this thing: asympotmatic and inconsistent, behaving like a bacterial infection yet not responding to flouroquinolone treatment (I'm beginning a fifth round today, and have the sixth--a high-end gatofloxcin that I have thus far refused to take for lack of consistent symptom sitting on the shelf.) The only downside of it is that I can't see out of one eye very well, and I'm skipping work at the one time of year that I don't want to. For the comfort of those who have offered their concern to my state in the past, let me reassure that the most devastating possibilities have been ruled out by a host of bloodwork. Nonetheless, it's frustrating. But the alterations of perspective I have undergone burning my brain senseless for two days on this latest round have left me with little desire to fight this morning (okay, this afternoon, but damn did I need sleep ....) And it is amid this slightly-depressed passivity that I find an absolutely golden perspective that I have not, hitherto, given fair consideration. To my fellow pagan, atheist, and otherwise non-Christian posters who have suffered the brunt of Lawdog's offenses: * I have accused Lawdog of being a provocateur. This is most likely inaccurate, but I stand behind my assertion that only someone who hates the Church could possibly set the ducks up to be knocked down so easily. It's uncanny in this sense, and resembles the dark portrait of hatred that I, too, would paint as the essence of Christian church history. But it may be that Lawdog is not a provocateur, but someone so wholly enthralled by the nature of his faith that he cannot escape. He seems to be pushing its results to theoretic extremity, reflecting the human extremity of the faith's history. Could it be that this hater of persons is not really an aggressive hater of persons but rather a frightened, trapped intellect pressing the seams, hoping that someone will hand him a logical out that he can accept and put to work for him hacking away the visceral bonds of a fear inspired by faith? There are those times that when you find an answer, you wonder how you ever missed it. When the answer occurs to you, there comes simultaneous relief at having achieved the answer and the puzzlement of how you missed the obvious detail. In this sense, the question has occurred to Lawdog, whatever form it might take: should this be true, then our responses to such fulsome rhetoric might be inappropriate. By enacting the most desperate results of the faith, Lawdog hopes to discover the method by which those who have escaped did so. As we corral these aspects of the faith, and buttress ourselves against them, though, the purveyor of the faith--e.g. Lawdog--still suffers from the nagging Christian doubt in human character that makes them feel personally persecuted when the dogma fails. Thus he feels legitimately persecuted by what is a world of promise to him, and retreats further inside his shadows to wonder if maybe the shadows weren't right all along. In this case, we owe Lawdog our love and assistance. He knows that others have escaped, for we the non-Christians of the world are evidence. From such a combative heritage, though, this is the only way he knows how to find that path: quest and combat. It could simply be that the data is wrongly ordered, and sets off certain responses too early, whereas if we can find the key to Lawdog's pattern, we might anticipate those alarms and bypass them, offering him the easiest chance in history to lay down the sword and shield down by the riverside and walk away from the battle. It could simply be that he wishes to escape the extreme hypocrisy he enacts with his words. Perhaps how we, the non-believers respond, can help him do what he knows the right thing is. To Lawdog: I think I get it now. I want you to know that it is okay to walk away from that faith: you achieve a greater portion of God's Will when you do. My basic assumption of human nature is its inherent devotion to life, and therefore goodness. This is a hard principle, I understand, when you're taught for a lifetime of inherent human depravity and moral poverty. I walked away from Christian faith starting when I was thirteen. It was twelve years later that I officially rejected the assumption of inherent evil. It's three years after that and I'm still merely beginning to see the potential of the inherent human goodness. I have an entire lifetime ahead of me to learn about this Universe around me, and suddenly it's a wonderful, beautiful, dazzling event. Love yourself for your place amid it, and it will love you in return, though that's as cryptic as anything else. Everything in the Universe occurs for a reason, and where you once would write that to God, you can henceforth understand that it's an expected result of a diverse and puzzling Universe. But that puzzle is its joy. Instead of gods or governments being overlords, they are results of life. And watching them from that perspective makes life itself quite amusing. But I cannot invite you, for the gates at the edge of our living realm stand ever open, and if we don't put a flashing neon invitation above it, it's merely because that's tacky. But it's a short hike up the hill from the river, and much easier when you've laid down the sword and shield. And, yes ... we would welcome you to the ranks of the living, for Life celebrates itself, and would rejoice that one chose to come away from the shadows of that valley of death. But I think I get it now, Lawdog. And I want you to know it's okay. If you need an historical unmounting of the Mother Church, start with Arius and Athanasius, and then read back through Irenaeus and on to the Apostolic Fathers: the transparency of the Church and its resulting faith make its impact so insubstantial you can brush it away like dust. And once you figure out the folly of Nicaea, the history that has occurred since then takes its proper place as well. And when and if that wave of shame strikes, for it often does, know that it's okay: we who walked away felt it once, too, and as those who never suffered from Christian faith (e.g. Atheists, lifetime pagans, Buddhists, &c.) have never claimed to never be wrong, I'm quite sure that they, too, know the feeling of disgusted amazement which possesses a conscience during periods of conflicting principles. It can be overwhelming, and none of us would laugh--many of us have friends who didn't make it through that period, and we miss them terribly. But you've brought yourself to an interesting crossroad, Lawdog. We're here to offer what advice we can, and we'll tell you its okay every step of the way because we believe that it truly is. But it is up to you to cast aside the heavy armor of this warring God. And the living will truly rejoice and welcome you to the new place you find yourself. The pagans will not pray, petition, or cast on your behalf because propriety forbids it unless your permission is obtained. But know that we'll be rooting for you as you climb the hillside: we'll be doing the Wave. in the peace of Life, Tiassa Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
WOW...Tiassa that one was great!!! I appologise to everyone for butting in (again) but I think that I owe Tiassa a "thank you" at least. I wrote and re-wrote this post to try and convey how impressed I was with your insite (above) but really all I want to say is it was great I could have done with something like that when I first came to SciForums and I sincerley hope that Lawdog gets some benefit from it, although if he doesn't I'm sure plenty of people will....so well done Tiassa...that is one of your best. Hope your illness get's sorted out soon.
Dear Tiassa, Perhaps you do not believe in the Devil, but he is real and is using you to fight against the Truth of Christ. If our faith is fluff, then why do you spend so much time railing against it? if its only fantasy, a mind-trap, what harm is there in letting us pray in peace to our God, believing in our folly that some great monarch will come to restore Christiandom and Universal Faith. That Christ will come to judge us all. Why do you want to convince me out of it, after all, I can only harm myself, do you have a sense of Love and Mercy for your fellow man, seeing me in pain as you suppose? HMMM, that sounds Christian. ""I think I get it now. I want you to know that it is okay to walk away from that faith: you achieve a greater portion of God's Will when you do."" HERE YOU ARE TRYING TO CONVince me out of MY Faith, doing to me exactly what you cant bear in Christians. Its not ok. Thats apostasy, infidelity, which like adultery, is abhorrent ""My basic assumption of human nature is its inherent devotion to life, and therefore goodness."' IF HUMAN NATURE is not fallen , as you seem to imply, then why have men been so active in wars, persecutions and abortions throughout the millenia? Surely you could try to blame this on religion, but we know that men can do just fine in their wars without religion, as communists like Stalin have demonstrated. I think that Life, true living, requires a devotion to Eternity, the source of Life and Goodness. Yet still, I ask you, whence arises Goodness? Can you touch or see it, do the 5 senses tell you that goodness exists? This is an invisible reality that does not pass away. It arises from invisible God, who is the source of Goodness and is infinitely Good. This is a hard principle, I understand, when you're taught for a lifetime of inherent human depravity and moral poverty. I was not raised indoctrinated by the Faith. God chose me at the age of 31 to follow his path more deeply. Before that I was involved in various New Age groups. I found that the pagan system does not admit the reality of God, nor does it help humans to grow, but turns people into self oriented by spiritual pride. Just like you say, "Love yourself" and it will love me in return. Why worship Creation when you can worship the creator. You will not become fully realized until you learn to Love in the way St Francis and Jesus taught. The first step is accepting the Truth. "But that puzzle is its joy. Instead of gods or governments being overlords, they are results of life. And watching them from that perspective makes life itself quite amusing." Some will laugh all the way to the grave. But when they see the Son of Man coming in glory and judgement they shall weep into Eternity. "But I think I get it now, Lawdog. And I want you to know it's okay. If you need an historical unmounting of the Mother Church, start with Arius and Athanasius, and then read back through Irenaeus and on to the Apostolic Fathers: the transparency of the Church and its resulting faith make its impact so insubstantial you can brush it away like dust. And once you figure out the folly of Nicaea, the history that has occurred since then takes its proper place as well." I have done this, reading the works in the original language in Latin. It reveals the reality of the Church. The rest of your letter is very patronizing, and shows that you are angry, not at me, but at God.
The Lawdog speaketh Well, I tried. It's a better portrait than the alternatives. Forgive me if I just couldn't let it set on you being either stupid or cruel. See, that's the thing: based on my principle of human goodness, it is inappropriate to think of you as so inhumanly disgusting as your faith tantrums have painted you to be. Do you realize you threatened death and elimination to an entire culture? What if tomorrow I decided to get up and kill all the Baptists? Isn't that a little inappropriate? At least? So it's up to you, Lawdog. I thought I'd take a gamble on you and try to figure out why your soul-expressions are so polluted with hatred. So what would you rather I think: That you're confused, or an ignorant jackass? (Edit here: conextual difficulties resulting from a fourteen-hour interruption; Radiohead was worth it, though.) But it sounds like you've got it all figured out. Like this: Oh, that clears it right up, doesn't it? Yawn. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! You sound like my father. It sounds even more ridiculous now, coming from you. The answer should be quite clear, Lawdog. It's a murderous, hateful faith. Normally, I hold that people can believe what they want, but I'm severely worried that someone's going to turn up dead before my point gets through. You know, if tomorrow you go out and act on your words, and someone ends up dead, there will be absolutely no point to having made my point, because someone else would still be dead at the hands of a Christian. I can say certain words time and time again until I've etched such a horror from my heart, but it wouldn't change the fact that peace will have failed because of Christianity. Because you have endorsed murder and threatened people who believe different things than you with destruction. Hello?! What is the harm in letting neo-Nazis "worship"? Well, they want to kill all the Jews, so at some point we just have to deny them the right to do that in the name of their creed. You, Lawdog, have threatened people with violence and endorsed murders committed in the name of Jesus' peace. At some point it is unacceptable; it was unacceptable five hundred years ago, two thousand years ago, and as many years as there are before Christ came along and raised a generation of suicidal martyrs and bloodlusting propaganda artists. Your kind of hatred, Lawdog, is pretty much what Jesus wanted to defeat in his community. No, Lawdog, I'm trying to protect other people. It seemed a worthwhile route to go, to see if you were perhaps trying to escape by those means. 'Tis better to have tried and learned better than to leave a soul hurt and alone in that shadowed valley of death. But you're entitled to believe whatever you want, and I will rail against your violent hatred so long as you choose to convey it. Unlike the Christian version, my approach doesn't involve setting you on fire, or raping you, or flaying the skin from your still-living bones. Lawdog, if you are incapable of figuring out the difference between offering something to someone for their benefit and threatening their lives for their benefit, then you're demonstrating exactly what is wrong with Christianity. The shallow, spiteful delusion that killing peole is good for them: what is it with you Christians that two millennia haven't helped you figure out what the hell Thou shall not kill means? Adultery? That's a great comparison. I noticed murder wasn't on the abhorrent list; is there a reason for this? Oh, of course there is .... Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Maybe if you understood history, you'd figure it out. Economic necessity, combined with uneducated superstition, human greed (even in bare economies), and a lack of means to accomplish certain things in society. One of the things to note about Socialism is that said Socialists are quite correct in their assertion that the Earth can sustain a human population of at least sixty billion. But would that really be good for humanity itself? I doubt it; the requirements of homogenous sustenance would weaken humanity. But when villages were starving, the people sought food by any means necessary, including warfare. We still see this today. But what happens when someone is convinced that there is something more important than life itself worth fighting for: perhaps one's soul? Read your Old Testament: God ordered the Jews to kill for essentially reasons of pride. This heritage exists in Christianity, too. But you already know that, and are quite proud of it, so I don't need expand on that much. Warfare is as much a part of human history as economic need, and the pride of it is as old as religion itself. Like I said: economy. I think that devotion is inherent in people until contrived religion buries it beneath the egotistical assumption of devotion. You know, hypocrites praying on streetcorners, and so forth? Nicene Creeds, confessions of faith .... Okay .... That's, uh ... nice. Notions of good and evil are, like notions of aesthetics, something that comes about when a species can afford the luxury of having morals. * Consider the bacteria species I'm currently dismissing from active duty in my body, most likely staphylococcus or pneumococcus: now you and I know that the dumbest thing to do in times of economic stress is overpopulate; that's partway how you got into the mess in the first place. Yet as the economy turns sour beneath a gatofloxicin trend, the bacteria will prepare for a species-oriented battle of attrition: it is not the luxury of considering the needs of individual bacteria, but the perpetuation of the species within the environment. So in this sense, perhaps the overpopulation is smart. Does this translate all the way up the life chain to the human Third World? Perhaps that's beyond the scope, but I should have the idea polished enough to argue in ten or so years. But if we put the bacterial strategy into human terms, what are the morals of unchecked reproduction? From the bacterial perspective, can the species afford morals? The luxury of morals is presently a human affair. Good and evil are purely human considerations. Goodness reflects life. Evil, like murder, reflects death. I cannot argue with your opinion, and shall not. However, when you wrote that paganism makes people self-oriented by spiritual pride, I officially became Mighty Curious what you call a religion in which you are sinful by the nature of your birth and the whole of your life is devoted to an effort for redemption. A self-improvement course? But, since you chose as a responsible adult to assume the worst in everybody, there really isn't an excuse, is there? And just like Christian advocate and author Bob Larsen, you can't quote someone correctly even if you have a written example in front of you. Makes me wonder if Christians aren't still bitter about that printing press thing; I suppose we, the pagans, should be--it gave the Bible to the masses, and fostered murderous thoughts like your own. Ummm ... because it's more immediately relevant? If your Creator wants to be a part of our lives, He should not be such a prick and stay hidden in his room all day. Funny, I always thought the first step was finding the Truth. You can save yourself a lot of embarrassment that way. Now you're compelling me to quote movies: Scary, scary. Aren't we scary? You really should have something more argumentative than superstition. But, if it's the best you can do .... Was this before or after you accepted them as the Truth? Aww, Lawdog, that's what happens when you choose to believe the worst of people. Look at it from my perspective: If the scenario proved true, and we chased you back into the shadow of your valley of death, not only will we have done the world in general a disservice, but we will have pushed a soul back into the murky depths of superstition and hatred. There's no excuse for not trying. But clear one thing up for me: Was that you or your God that threatened an entire culture and endorsed murder? Oh, that's right! It was both of you. But thank you for clearing up that you chose to be the person we've all come to know. It so aptly demonstrates the power of Christian faith. --Tiassa Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Nice try, Tiassa Tiassa, Well, you did what you could. I'm afraid Lawdog is a lost cause (but I'm sure you suspected that before you even began). I'm somewhat concerned about your unilateral blindness, but confused as to whether that is a symptom of your illness or a reaction to the treatment? Then I was <i>really</i> confused when you said you were asymptomatic. Did they rule out a TIA? MS? I certainly hope it is nothing serious and that you are feeling better soon. Take care of yourself, Tiassa. Blessings, Emerald
You have a perfect opportunity to prove your point. Medical science vs. the healing power of God. When I am in situations approaching the gravity of yours, I prefer to be healed.
A little bit of care, a lot of Tequin Medical science has come through again; the only thing I did to reinforce its march through the microbial quagmire was to obey that little spirit called common sense ... you know, don't go get a hooker, don't dance in knee-deep sewage, wash my hands before treating my eyes. Sorry, but there was no laying on of hands. I must agree with you that I prefer to be healed as well. That's what gatofloxicin is for. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! thanx, Tiassa Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Jesus healed surprisingly few by laying on of hands. Faith is what healed those he talked to. Well, that is what you had faith in. Sooner or later, you will get something that you won't have faith in medical science for.
Everything dies, Tony Not even the stars burn forever. We've seen a few blow up, so it's fair to say this. But everything dies, and thus far it's mere myth that one can cheat Death by playing keleb for God. thanx, Tiassa Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
