Does any one believe in any God anymore?

I read a thread that stated there couldn't be a Christian God. I AM NOT TRYING TO PROVE THEM RIGHT OR WRONG! Most of the responses agreed with the athesist view, I was wondering if anyone does believe. I'm feelinga bit alone in my faith in a supreme being

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I'll ante up, sort of ....

Let's just say I'm vaguely theist. I'm inclined to say "Don't ask me to define that."

I'm generally quite reserved with the details on two grounds. First, it's a private relationship. Second, it makes no sense to anybody but me. As long as those two things are clear, we're doing just fine.

But if I were to write it as a story, it would include the sense of purpose found among the dancing farondolae of L'Engle. The goddess herself is an Earth-generated spirit of Life; her divine benefit is that she is clued in toward that sense of purpose. The supreme cause is removed and impersonal; it is the event we call Universe; notions of gods and goddesses can become quite real in the sense that they have a measurable effect on human conduct.

I have mentioned before to Cris (somewhere, but please, I don't feel like digging that one out; it was a random aside in a strange thread I can't remember) that the goddess is somewhat a personal psychosis; it's the nearest short explanation I can give that makes any sense to anybody. The essential function of this goddess is to create a sense of center that is A) removed from me, personally; B) considerate of larger issues than individual organisms.

A) As I have lamented of other faiths, notions of redemption or salvation make religious faith an issue of greed. I'll stand on that since such a massive digression is beside our point today. But it's splattered all over a couple of debates in the Christian forum. (I recall that I harped on Tony1 on this point, but I'm not entirely sure; it's probably in one of those war-torn threads he and I left behind.) To believe in this sense of purpose in the Universe, I have come to know a goddess who makes no personal demands of me in the sense of, well ... my primary experience otherwise is with the God of the Christians. Atheism works, too, but its philosophical center does not quite suit me. (I have, before, asserted that what separates me from atheists is probably a matter of vocabulary, and nobody has been particularly inclined to argue that point, so I suppose there's that.) But this sense of purpose I've recognized relates smoothly with other, more worldly principles--such as Liberty or Community--that I've come to believe in.

B) Something about species. For what reason did we humans, who are fiercely independent and individualist, come together in the convention called society? This does come back to greed, in a way. For instance, Capitalism: it describes a condition, but what happens when it is made a cause? People's greed compels them to enrich themselves at the detriment--not merely the financial expense--of others. At some point, this enrichment becomes detrimental to the capitalist: there is a brilliant Hap Kliban pen-and-ink cartoon entitled Industrialist, which depicts a decrepit industrialist in dark glasses and a white suit sitting at a table and delicately eating a plate of severed hands with a trident fork. At some point, one's greed becomes so consuming that they create detriments in their own immediate community. Even if you're the toughest crime-boss, your own home turf eventually becomes exceptionally dangerous as a result of the conditions born of avarice. Watch the Drug War in the US, for instance; the sleeping giant is stirring. People are just starting to figure out that the Drug War is about money and that it's responsible for most of the damage it claims to fight. (Note re: money--Most libertarians on this issue fix the beginning of the modern Drug War on the 1937 Marihuana Tax Stamp Act; commercial legislation, US Constitution I.8.iii.) Okay, so the point actually being, as relates to the Goddess: By remembering my place in the living order, reminded by the fixation of the figurehead in a planetary and not individual scheme, I am more compelled to consider whether my benefit comes as a natural part of the economy sucessfully extracted, or at the direct and calculated detriment of others. The point of the Goddess being of the Spirit of Life is that she thus constantly considers as much of the whole of life as the situation either requires or allows.

So much of redemptive religion seems to fix the figurehead to a Universal scheme while refusing to consider that said figurehead might have a place for humanity in the scheme that is not the center of Creation's reason. I remember finding it impossible to work past the limits of a God that was All, yet required such individual attention; when I realized that such schemes as redemptive religions put humanity at the center of the Universe's reason for being, I also realized that this is not necessarily true.

When I belonged to a redemptive religion, I looked to God and saw myself; this was my salvation, this was my peace, this was my, my, my, mine, mine, double-mine! Or, uh ... something a little like that.

When I look at this little psychosis I've constructed to filter information, I see life. Whether or not one believes in God, life is much better for everyone around you if you stop worrying during this lifetime about salvation and just concentrate on Living.

The sense of purpose is more important to me than the figurehead, and what's nice is that she doesn't mind because that's the point. Therein lies the only personal problem I have with being atheist myself: I actually have a comeback for Camus--Yeah, mate, but that doesn't change the fact that it's all pointless. Which is odd, in a sense. My birth is actually quite the little accident; you'd think I would find some comfort in the transition from believing that humanity is a slim chance in the Unviverse--essentially an accident--to accepting that given the nature of the Universe, humanity is a statistical necessity. But being a statistical necessity isn't much better than being born of a prostitute, either. Perhaps that's why I feel no necessary kinship to the Christian Father of All, but you'd think that I would have taken some comfort from exploiting one or another atheistic perspectives on the matter. Ooh--maybe that's my little psychosis: mother issues. However, that would probably relate more to the mother I actually have as compared to a shadow of my past, so psychoanalyze all you want.

I take from theism a structure for the sense of purpose I acknowledge. I take from atheism the objective fact that the Universe is not extraneous; however we have arrived at humanity, we most certainly have arrived; we're here, we are not extraneous. I like to note that, since most of the atheists I associated with during my attempt at atheism were the bitter-artist, no-purpose-in-living, eventual heroin user philosophers, there are reasons why I developed the Camusite response I have. See? No system's perfect. Just make sure you don't accept one that claims to be.

Avoid superstion; strip it naked if you can. Life is much easier when you're not afraid. Well, okay ... you just find more important things to be afraid of, but life's like that, you know?

Is this what Michael Stipe meant when he sang, Oh no, I've said too much ... haven't said enough?

thanx,
Tiassa

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Welll..
I would definitely say I'm a theist, in the same sense that Bhuddists are....
Define your 'God' and I'll get back to you.

 

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thecurly1
try to avoid the perversion of thought that states you should not seek the knoledge of god!
for it is great wisdom to find a superior being and learn as much as possible from it!
more so to allow it to teach you and thus learn.

groove on

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therculy 1, you ain't alone.

 

That's right. Don't let the majority view get you down. You're certainly not alone in a belief of God.

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Remember what Jesus tells us:

<i>"John 15:18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.
John 15:19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you."</i>

~Caleb

 

Yeah, count me in to!

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Hurrah!

Go, team, go!

Amen!

Would y'all like some skirts and pompoms?

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So here's the question: Walk through any Jesus Fair, right? And employ those kinds of vague affirmations of faith. Are you all praising the same version of God? Your lack of commentary seems to signify that you are all in doctrinal and interpretive consensus, and I guarantee you that's not true.

At the Jesus Fair, you might have just "Praised Him" with a man who is reinforced by your praise because he feels the kinship of others who think that Jesus wants him to rid the world of blacks and jews.

Might I suggest a little better effort to actualize the potential of that cheer-squad faith?

thanx,
Tiassa

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I take it that's in lieu of an answer?

Puh-leeze.

--Tiassa

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Quote from this, Quote from that!

Why is is that most people, when attempting to defend their god or religious beliefs immediately swing into the "quotes" from some version of the bible or other? Do these god fearing people not have a mind of their own? As for their literacy, I will put that down to typing errors which we are all prone to, as we don't have a god to guide our hands! Religious zealots spout the almighty, threats of eternal damnation and this goddamn bible thing - they have no originality of thought. If you actually believe in the existence of god - in whatever form, then that's fine by me but please stop spouting all that religious claptrap and threatening me with hellfire. There is no hell by the way - the only place we go to after this is utopia - THIS existence is hell! I had better define that Utopian statement hadn't I? I think that there is a life after this, on purely personal grounds, but I do. However, I think it is in the form of "astral planes" - a further stage in evolution of the mind - not the soul - the mind. Consider this, if when we die, there is nothing, just "black" - what was the point of us being here? Not to serve HIM who must be obeyed, but to earn our stripes so to speak. Like the god lovers - I can't prove a word, but it will be intersting to find out, but I'm in no rush!!

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Well ...,

To be honest, Bobby, I originally posted the cheerleader slam while in a moment of foul temper; I do, however, think it funny that the only person giving an answer in this topic that amounts to more than a cheap, sound-bite affirmation isn't Christian.

But it was a provocative slam, and I figured your biblical turnaround missed the mark just enough: You criticized the board in my own eye--well, I, for one, gave a few minutes thought to my answer to the topic before posting; board accommodated. I could, just as easily, let the fluffy, pompom affirmations go without a word of comment, and it would probably be best if I did.

But you don't seem to be intentionally sidelining the topic (Loone), threatening people (Lawdog), or posting evidence against your opponents that you would not accept as true within your own system (various); neither the stupidity, the menace, nor the hypocrisy is there to lash at. So if I'm just going to stick my nose in and sneeze at everyone ... well, I gotta expect something in return, right?

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But, cheerleader slams aside, I am curious about what it means to a Christian to vaguely praise God: we know about human diversity.

As an example: in high school, I was associated with a family that experienced ... well, internal difficulties. When all shook out, there were three opinions present: what Daddy did was wrong; Daddy didn't do it; and Daddy may have been wrong or not, but you shouldn't dishonor your parents by saying such nasty things about them.

Whether or not Daddy did the wrong thing is something never satisfactorily dismissed, but that's my opinion ten years later. What was most disturbing was the segment of this family's church that felt the children were in a state of unrepentant sin for telling people what had happened. When I look across an aisle at them and here them praising Jesus, I wonder how their heart sits with God; I will not praise Him who endorses the abuse of a child.

I expected to find a comfortable solidarity in paganism: I did not. Rather, and what still impresses me today, these spirits are unwilling to set aside personal values of moral right and wrong merely to achieve the appearance of solidarity. And that taught me more than any number of years among the Christians. But I do wonder whether or not y'all give a rip about those things. You may possibly be celebrating a God who believes in things you find immoral, and doing so because solidarity is more important than propriety; when an entire community is improper, you're all damned, and God doesn't seem to care about the young spirits who never had a chance to experience His mercy in its truest form. (Okay, I'm stopping here because it seems I'm extending the argument into yet another facet.)

Diversity is a wonderful thing in the world, except where solidarity and homogony are required: e.g. Christian faith. I'm just curious whether or not the situation is recognized; how one deals with it is entirely another subject.

You might cross paths with someone at a religious festival; you might say, Praise Jesus. The person who says it back to you is comforted by your solidarity, and your faith in Jesus who is on his side because we're all imperfect sinners, so raping his daughters is forgiveable, but what's with that Devil's influence making them talk so horribly about their parents?

You can, with that vague affirmation, encourage greater harm to human spirits and bodies, and to the mission of your Christ most holy.

thanx,
Tiassa

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I just find myself...

...wondering if Tiassa has left anything for me to say, LOL.

I am pagan, and worship a divine being loosely identified as Mother Earth in Her female aspect, and the GreenMan in His male aspect. I'm probably a bit more religious about it that Tiassa is, but overall I think he and I have similar thoughts on the subject.

 

Mother Nature & Son Herne

I do not think that Mother Nature and her son Herne want to be worshipped? Respect would be more in line with their doctrine. Respect for the planet we live on, respect for her forests and waters, as with the native american - they were more in tune, so I have been told, with nature than anyone.....

 

Decided to check ...

Red Devil,

Although I was quite sure you were referring to 'Hermes', decided to check and found that 'Herne' is a small city in W.Germany, in the Ruhr area. The question is, was it a typo or something else, a Pagan thing?

Also, I wouldn't bet my moccasins on the Native Americans. Their 'being in tune with nature' was more a matter of lack of technology, relatively small numbers in a large land, and being nomadic. They'd just move on then things got too yucky and when they returned, Mother Nature had pretty well done her thing. They had more respect for the animals they depended on than the land, something they lived on but didn't 'own' in the European sense. But, they did protect their 'territory'.

 

Chagur

The way I see it is that these people lived their lives in a way which made least impact on their. They knew they would return to that land...

anyways you can claim that their impact was small because a lack of technology but I would suggest that it was deliberate. I.e. they didn't try to change the land through technology because of their lifestyle (i.e. one with nature). Take a look at europeans and the first thing they did is clear the forest and start a farm, domesticate the animals, damn rivers, etc etc etc.....I would think that native Americans would have been able to achieve all these things IF they wanted them.

 

Naturally ...

By the time the Europeans came to this continent they were already an agrarian/technological culture. The Native Americans for the most part were hunter/gatherers except for a couple of groups in the South West (the Hopi and the Anasazi/Pueblo).

As to what they would have achieved 'IF they had wanted them' can't really be discussed. How do you 'want' something you have no knowledge of? Further, for the most part, they had everything they needed since their needs were in keeping with what was available. And it wasn't because they were 'one with nature', that was purely a European creation - Just like the 'noble savage'.

 

Chagur

Fine I'll Concede (sp?), however not because you made a point which convinced me I was wrong but because this is an argument too hard to have (if that makes sense). You will claim they didn't impact the land because they were too primitive and I'll argue that it was a choice of theirs...at the end of the day neigher of us will be any closer to what is true.....

I too live in a country that has nomadic, primitve native people..and euro's here also killed them off took land which they claimed didn't belong to anyone (because they are nomadic)...and claimed their culture only respected the land because they were too primitive to destroy it...however if you look at the culture you HAVE to atleast entertain the fact that maybe these people were happy to stay primitive because of their kinship to the land....At least all the aboriginal lores/myths are very much to do with the land...they actually call it mother.
Also the aboriginals had contact with advanced cultures as did the native americans....and that influence didn't advance the native people....

 

Chagur

No, chagur, I meant Herne. Here in the UK Herne is the "son of nature" and, without researching it, has been for thousands of years. I will check it out and get back to you.

 

You got me Red

LOL, I suppose I figured nobody would know what I was talking about enough to be picky with my wording.

You're right, "worship" is the wrong word, I used it because I thought it would be understood best here.

Herne is a God, He's the leader of the wild hunt in Anglo-saxon legend. He's sometimes seen as another version of Cernunnos, who leads the wild hunt for the Celts, or Odin who leads the wild hunt for the Teutonic peoples. (I got this last bit out of my dictionary, I'm not personally familiar with any legends with Odin leading a Wild Hunt...) I actually happen to have a little pewter statue of Herne on my computer - He is depicted as a man wearing a loincloth and a deer headdress, horns intact. He carrys a knife and a staff with a crescent moon at the top. One of the many versions of the God showing His connection with nature and the wild beasts in particular.

But back to "worship" - I should more accurately say I recognize the connection between myself and the natural world around me. I recognize divinity in nature, and I respect those forces and invite them into my life. My holidays and celebrations center around attunement to the seasons. I mold my life around the planet - I do my best to minimize any negative impact I have upon this globe. My church would consist of the whole world - anywhere wild and free is my temple.

Sound better?

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Hey, Red Devil ...

Save yourself the effort, found it with the help of 'Google' (aren't search engines great?) Should have known better than to have relied on a single source ... and been a bit less arrogant. My apologies.

"Herne the Hunter" - fascinating, and a myth I wasn't familiar with.

Thanks.

Chagur