capitalism needs a reality check

Discussion in 'Science & Society' started by OmgaRoot, Oct 8, 2003.

  1. OmgaRoot Registered Senior Member

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    This isn't another generic capitlism bad communism good type of topic, which im trying to establish an alternative goverment. I think that we have been blinded by American capitalism, that because we sit here and watch it do evil things. Im not suporting capitlism, I wont deny it has done horrffic stuff, but Capitlism is very powerfull and what if we were to reform it, keep the basic ideas, just put new people into power. Life if capitlsim has the ablity to make someone be on top of the game, cant we use capitlism to our advantage. And in even the russians had vangards so, it seems that we cant just let out society fix it's self, we still need someone controling us regardless.
     
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  3. Quasi Registered Senior Member

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    I guess I really don't understand- USA capitolism is supposed to be market capitalism- one in which an open and free society chooses its leaders and is transparent. The US Constitution forbids the gov. from engaging in hidden treaties. So everything the gov. does is theoretically out there in the open for the media to report. I agree now that the media is almost a pure monopoly our democracy is in trouble. Also the rampant cheating in the US which the gov. is allowing for the time being. But all in all, we are aware of these problems, and will change. Virtually all other forms of gov. are rampant with corruption and graft, they merely cover it up (North Korea.) Has capitolism done terrible things? Yep. Is it better than any other form? IMHO Yes. But at least it is out there for us to see and judge, and make the system better. Any socialist type government is run by pinheads who have their own secret agendas and can control far more than they should in a healthy society. The world is far far better off with what the US has done that without.
     
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  5. Cowboy My Aim Is True Valued Senior Member

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    What are the horrible things that capitalism has done?

    Since when did the more-socialist-by-the-minute America become a capitalist country?
     
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  7. Clockwood You Forgot Poland Registered Senior Member

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    Capitalism can do nothing. It just lets other people to have the opportunity do do aas they wish, for good or ill. Is it evil? Nah. It just lets human nature be seen for what it is.

    Capitalism is what you get whenever the government isn't micromanaging everything in the country.
     
  8. Deadwood Registered Senior Member

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    Agree with you there.

    However, we must also remember that government does have some control over these bad things via statute law, regulations, taxes and subsidies etc. Thus, capitalism may be better controlled.

    Whereas, a socialist government who controls the market has way more power than individuals. And if individuals have a high influence on government, this may lead to corruption.

    Whereas, in a capitalist market, there are more individuals with more rights and freedoms. A capitalist government will act more to create efficient market outcomes imo.
     
  9. Watcher Just another old creaker Registered Senior Member

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    how to answer this question?

    A capitalist country?? Hardly - there will probably never be any purely "capitalist" countries. All successful countries have various socialized constructs; military, police, highways, etc. It's hard to imagine ANY country functioning in the modern world without some level of socialization.

    But America "becoming more socialist by the minute"? America has slid further and further to the Right over the last three decades.
     
  10. BigBlueHead Great Tealnoggin! Registered Senior Member

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    I'm sure that they blew up that oil producing country so that they could SHARE the oil... with EVERYONE! Of course that was the government.

    Well then, how about suing African countries to keep them from using AIDS drugs from India? That's a pretty horrible thing, and done by capitalism I would say.

    How about various sweat shops all around the world abusing the locals to produce cheap consumer goods?

    I remember a show that was out a little while ago about a company called Kader Industrial Toy that made stuffed animals in a factory in Thailand. There was a fire in the building, and company security locked all of the doors so that the employees wouldn't be able to steal any of the toys. 188 people died; they cleared them out and hired more.

    There's a summary on this particular incident at this URL:
    http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Senate/8931/dbt-nyt2.html

    But crap like this happens all the time. This, for instance, is nothing compared to the Union Carbide accident in India that killed 3000 people and crippled 20,000. But, that was a while ago so most people have either forgotten or assume that things are better now.

    Offhand I'd say that was pretty horrible.
     
  11. tablariddim forexU2 Valued Senior Member

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    Capitalism has a very nasty face on the cutting edge, one we never really see.

    Capitalism can work, within a framework of rules. Recently, rules were drafted designed to protect the ecosphere, a world treaty was presented... America refused to sign. A nasty face indeed.
     
  12. Watcher Just another old creaker Registered Senior Member

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    tablariddim

    Hmmm we don't see "the nasty face" as you put it? You must not work in the Corporate world, are you a student? Really you aren't identifying the root cause here... it's not "capitalism", per se, as Marx so naively believed. Remember, he had no clue regarding the technological Powershift that has allowed the Corporate State that we know today to be established.

    Maybe you think it is a subtle distinction, but at root, it's Corporate power that is driving forward. Of course you can argue that it's simply a manifestation of "capitalism", but it is an important distinction, and one that everyone should clearly understand.

    As far as "protecting the ecosphere", yes that's important and it's certainly on my list of priorities, but I would state that you are foolishly and emotionally addressing a symptom or result, not truly exposing the root cause of the problem, which is the emergence of an unregulated and unchecked Corporate State.
     
  13. tablariddim forexU2 Valued Senior Member

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    I put my argument rather simplistically, but when I used the term capitalism in the context of 'the cutting edge' it was meant to imply the corporations, it wouldn't be the corner shop or local bar would it?

    And when I said there should be rules governing the workings of capitalism (corporations), you put it better by saying the corporate state should be checked and regulated. No real dispute.

    The way I see things, is that the large corporations are trying to gain control of everything in this world, this is called capitalism and as a former businessman, I can understand them, from the view that they have to create profits, trouble is, at what cost?

    Within a few generations, the third world, as it gets better educated and richer, will shrink and they will have their own corporations, all vying for a piece of this planet's resources and I can understand that too, because their people want a better standard of living as well.

    This is one reason the concept of Global Marketing was created, so that Western companies can get their feet in as many foreign doors as possible, before the competition gets stronger.

    If things are left unchecked, as they are now, if America, currently the richest nation and owner of the largest international corporations refuses to sign accords and treaties designed for the good of everyone now, then, by the time the others enter the fray, it will surely be too late. There will be a frenzied attempt by all to consolidate, the stakes super high, the risks of real world war stupendous and that's without taking into account the ill state of the ecosystem, which will get far worse.
     
  14. DeeCee Valued Senior Member

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    1,793
    "Money is a sign of poverty"
    Ian M Banks
     
  15. Watcher Just another old creaker Registered Senior Member

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    we agree on nearly everything...

    But you keep referring to "America" as the problem. Back in the 19th Century when the Manifesto was developed, there might have been some validity to identifying a country or a government as a capitalist entity... but today that's not really relevant.

    In fact, we can't even truly talk about "the West" as the engine of Capitalism anymore. The large corporations are truly Global, and the trend will continue.

    What I find interesting is that you consider the "state of the ecosystem" your worst nightmare. That will be the least of your worries as the trend for Corporate globalization continues.

    By the way, I really don't see any way of reversing this trend. Do you really believe that a few protests in Seattle, Washington or a few voices on some obscure Web site are going to deflect the momentum of the mighty Corporate State?
     
  16. tablariddim forexU2 Valued Senior Member

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    By the way, I really don't see any way of reversing this trend. Do you really believe that a few protests in Seattle, Washington....

    No.
     
  17. tempusme Registered Senior Member

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    how does that work?

    capitalism - like all other forms of organizational systems - are only as "evil" as the people who make compromise it. capitalism, however, will always be the best system because it gives the people the right to make their decisions. (corporations are people too...)
     
  18. Watcher Just another old creaker Registered Senior Member

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    ramblings of an old man

    I am certainly not arguing that communism is a better system than capitalism, if that's what you are thinking! That was a failed experiment thrice over; so we can set that aside. And I've made no statements about good and evil (until now).

    In the last half of the twentieth century there were several important "shifts", to steal a Tofflerism, which were destined to change the face of capitalism as it was understood prior to WWII.

    I see the changes breaking down like this:

    Information technology; computers, software, artificial intelligence
    Communications technology; radio, satellites, television, Internet
    Military capabilities; Weapons of mass destruction
    Transportation systems; Interstate highways, space travel
    Manufacturing automation; Machine tools, CAD/CAM/CAE
    Agricultural advances; Megafarms

    What's the point in all this? What does this have to do with corporations? Weren't all of these advances simply "progress", progress which allowed more and more people to enjoy more and more prosperity?

    My answer to those questions before ~1980, would have been yes. Corporations DID use those advances to extend a certain amount of wealth and prosperity to the masses, as the nice profits resulting from manufacturing automation were distributed, to some extent, throughout the class structures.

    Today? The times they are-a-changing, tempusme. Here in 2003, in case you haven't noticed, this old boat of a Corporate State is getting a little creaky.

    Why, you might ask? After all, corporations are people too!

    Actually corporations today, in 2003 are a LOT more than people. A large global corporation today is an extremely complex machine that is constituted of "human resources", "information systems" and "manufacturing systems". And the interesting thing is that large corporations are beginning to take on the characteristics of the automation systems that support them; the only difference is that the product being shipped out the door at the end of the day is maximum profit and maximum growth. And the system is designed to do whatever is necessary to achieve those ends. It has absolutely nothing to do with "good" or "evil".

    And the cost? Simply the dehumanization of man...

    Enough of these mumblings. Let me leave you with a final thought.

    “Let us all strive to be the very best human resource we can be.”
     
  19. candy Valued Senior Member

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    1,074
    I do not see it so much as the boat getting leaky as that in the 1990's somebody let the pirates have free run of the boat. The corporate scandals are not really as much about companies taking advantage of consumers and workers as it is about members of management groups taking advantage of everyone else (consumers, stockholders, and workers). So far it seems like the have pretty much gotten away with what they did.
     
  20. guthrie paradox generator Registered Senior Member

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    4,089
    If you imagine having enough of everything such that nobody has to go without anything, then you dont need anything to measure the worth of anything, since you dont have to save up and buy it or anything like that. It is more of an extreme idealistic case though. At the moment, its something to day dream about.
     
  21. Raha Registered Senior Member

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    Haha. You really believe this? Your choices in capitalism are in fact very limited and so are your decisions. The problem is that you are educated not to realize it.
    Best system in what way? Capitalism only proved to be most vital and stable system in recent era (note that ancient slave systems lasted for some thousands years, feudal systems 1000-2000 years, while capitalism is still pretty young - not more than 200-300 years or so) the failure of socialism might be only temporary one (first attempts to establish capitalistic democracy were also unsuccessful) and it can return in some modified form. We just do not know.
    Now - I lived in socialism and saw its fall. It was interesting. And I can compare. Unfortunately it is quite impossible to describe you the complexity of socialism as I remember it. There was not only socialism - there was also Russian oppression and it is quite difficult to separate those two. But when Gorbatchov came to power, Russian rule became less apparent and so the last years of Czech socialism were not bad at all. Personal freedom was limited in some aspects, but strangely enough, there was more freedom in other areas. For instance - there was a lot of police surveillance to which we were used to, so it was quite easy to avoid problems because everybody knew what he can do publicly and what not. On the other hand, as a side effect of that police surveillance, the crime level was rather low, so we felt generally much safer than now. And I think that one's feeling of personal safety is also part of personal freedom. If you are "free" to do what you want but scared to death you do not enjoy much freedom. Another example - there was a law that everybody of proper age must be employed unless he is too ill or so. So you didn't need to care about job - I think this is also kind of freedom, isn't it?
    Do not think after reading this post that I miss our old totalitarian system - not at all! I just wanted to say that it had its benefits and yes - there are people here who say they were better then and they are probably right.
    So once again - there are no "good" and "bad" systems. There are only systems that survive and those who do not. It's as simple as that.
     
  22. Nasor Valued Senior Member

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    People here seem to be confusing economic systems with political systems. Remember, capitalism merely means that people are free to buy, produce, and work however they choose. You can have capitalism in brutally oppressive dictatorships and socialism in democratically elected governments.
     
  23. Raha Registered Senior Member

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    Theoretically you are right. But in practice there is always very strong relations. Especially when we speak about socialism and/or communism - the central planning economy is a part of their ideology/policy. Other regimes - like that of Hitler's Germany, for instance - were/are totalitarian and capitalistic by definition, but the fact is that you just cannot achieve free market inside authoritative regime. If you (as a dictator) allow that, you would sooner or later face a group of rich and powerful people, who will be a threat to your power.
    Today's China is trying to be "capitalistic socialism" - we will see how it will go...
    On the other hand - how would you achieve central planning in democratic country? To carry on the plan, you must have a political power to enforce it.
     

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