Why the skeptics fear UFOs - AKA, The debunkers have something to hide

sorry wes
no i havent but the theme is commonplace.

blind stupidity? envision something for me. the way i see it is...either it works or it doesnt. the fringe has always been around. i see no threat. et will become the new religion only after he shows himself. until then our current paradigm can handle a bit of crackpottery

yes! even those who think the sky might fall if you let your guard down

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*i like to anchor this (paradigms) to actual shit as i do not have this aptitude foe abstraction as you do. lemme think some shit up

 

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Re: Re: Why the skeptics fear UFOs, AKA The debunkers have something to hide

Well, I would like to see an end to all of the ridicule on both sides, but that IS fantasy. I support the study of UFOs but I support no particular interpretation of the phenomenon; nor do I deny that reasons exist for all of the ET buffs beliefs. However, aside from the claim that something very unusual and highly energetic flies around the sky at times, I try very hard to remain neutral.

I see very little correlation to free energy devices and UFOs. There is no reason to consider any free energy machine that one can't turn on, inspect, and test. UFOs on the other hand are rare, typically brief in appearance, and not repeatable by nature. Also, the two subjects hardly compare in scope. What amazes me is not that we find debunkers, what amazes me is how many there are, and how much conviction they assert often with little knowledge of the subject. It becomes more like a religion. My motives are clear; I just want to know what they are. Why should I have to put up with people like Q for having this interest?

There is plenty of evidence, but most debunkers are not willing to make the effort to learn. I post evidence and no one responds. The posts just roll on by.

I have posted the Iran document a number of times but no one responds.

So, is the UFO culture growing larger or getting smaller? What is your goal? Are you making progress with the current approach? Of course I mean the debunking crowd in general, not just you.

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Yes, I did get a little defensive. We Ufologist put up with a lot of personal attacks; sometimes I get my hackles up.

Agreed. With the volume of reports available, IMO it becomes impossible to completely dismiss the subject. Something unusual must be flying around from time to time. To me this conclusion seems unavoidable. I can sympathize with the ET crowd, but that is just too far of a stretch for me unless ET lands in my pasture or next to Tom Brokaw on the evening news.

I'm not passing judgment on Q. This may or may not apply; I don't know Qs motives or psychological profile. Actually, I've seen some posters at un-moderated sites that are much worse than Q. There was one guy at Deja - or the site once purchased as Deja - that would call you every name in the book as soon as you showed up.

Also, you know that skeptics and debunkers use language like "nuts" ," fanatics" etc, etc, etc, with reckless disregard for any respectful discourse. This is just, somehow, by whatever rationalization, OK. However, the debunkers are so greatly insulted when they get a little taste of their own medicine.

 

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This is a good point. If the ETH were true, it would shake up my worldview pretty well I think. Still, SOP for the debunkers is to claim the objective high ground; I think this is not always, but sometimes fallacious. Many debunkers go away when faced with evidence they can't reasonably explain.

How many debunkers claim this as their motive? This is about honesty. Also, like I said over at PF, this is intended more for those who have an interest; though the objections are obviously expected. These are my personal observations. Since the motives of the UFO crowd are continually challenged, it only seems fair and worth mentioning that this works both ways.

 

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For obvious reasons none could admit this as a motive: were it true, it would dash their credibility. To conceal a motive of fear is not an issue of deceit versus honesty, either. To assert that it is means you are sure those debunkers motivated by fear are consciously aware of it. In fact, though, my experience is that people running on potentially embarrassing motives have them burried under layers of rationalization they themselves can't see through.

Again, I question the usefullness of saying anything about debunkers and skeptics in general. They are a mixed bag, just like any group of people you might apply a label to, and no characterization is going to cover all of them, or even most of them, well. Most of the debunkers I have seen on TV presenting their cases haven't struck me as objectionable people: they're not making ad hominem arguments, saying abusive or insulting things, or behaving agressively.

For your reading pleasure I will admit to often being motivated by fear in my skeptical dabblings, but it isn't the fear you think it is. I am leary of buying into compelling sounding claims of the extrordinary, getting exited about them, and then later finding out they were bogus. Like most humans, I very much dislike disapointment.

-Zooby

 

My motives as a skeptic, and occasional debunker, ... where to start.

Ah, other people's beliefs, then my personality traits, let's start there.

When you are young, people try and tell you things, and they don't always explain why they are telling you, or why they feel the need to, or why they believe what they are saying, or indeed, if they do actually believe it.

So, my first steps towards skepticism, was with religion. There were a few people I met when I was young, that tried to tell me about religion, and god, and Jesus. But, for some reason, I was one of those kids that always asked 'why', and I wanted an answer to that, and no answer was not satisfactory. 'Just 'cos' didn't cut it with me. Nobody who ever tried selling me God could answer any of my questions satifactorily, still can't. I recall a conversation I had with a neighbour, who was trying to sell me the creation story. As luck would have it, I'd just been given a book about dinosaurs, so I asked her about them. She said they had never existed, as they aren't listed in the bible. Well, I'd seen fossils (which is why I'd ended up with the book) so something didn't fit. Of course, as I got older, religion started to make far more sense. Is was about corrupt flawed people keeping control of other people using fear and paranoia. Well, I wasn't fearful, or prone to paranoia about my eternal soul, so I could see it for what it was. A business, looking out for itself.

And then I come across other people. New agers, who'll believe in just about anything, as long as they don't have to stop doing anything they enjoy doing.

Hippies. Enough said, already.

UFOlogists. Ah, and the come in so many types! From quite academic studious types, to complete flakes. The flakes are easy to discount. 'Ahuh, you were abducted, and told the secrets of the Universe, but you can't tell me, or the Universe will end.' etc. Same as religion really, a few sincere people, drowned out by vast majority of people who will believe in anything.

But you have studious types, who earnestly look at what is recorded. I looked too, as I found it passingly interesting, although my interest was more in the psychology of the believers.

Let's start with definitions. U.F.O.

Unidentified
Flying
Object

Right, I'm going to be strict here. Stealth aircraft are not 'Unidentified' Somebody knows what they are. They are more correctly 'secret'. Just because the observer doesn't know, doesn't matter. We can't educate all six billion of us to stop making mis-identifications, so we have to work around the observer somewhat. Terrestrial aircraft are built and flown by somebody, and they know what they are doing. If folks think this is the cause of UFO sightings, they should perhaps look for a better descriptive term, like 'plane spotter'.

Flying. No Venus. Not Mars. Not shooting stars. Not camera shake of a bright star, but something showing controlled flight. So a turn or two would be nice. A single blurry photograph does not show controlled flight, and how come we see so many single shots? I'd snap as many as I could, I'd get a series.

Object. Something which we can measure, hopefully. Not 'Projections of intelligence from a different vibration' or other Orgone related hippy BS. When we start with this stuff, we're opening up to all manner of theories, invisible pink Giraffes in space included. Let's not start, or we have to accept everything as being possible.

So, radar data, there is some, but as the earth is covered in radars, and not a single object takes off or lands without an aquaintance of mine getting an IR picture of it's engine and trail, we should be tripping over data, if it's there. So if it is there, there is a conspiracy. A huge one, many nations are in on it, and very few people squeal.

And wouldn't a good PR exerise for a US hating radical govt, be to publish radar data, and implicate the US in a coverup? Proving they are the great satan and not to be trusted?

Sifting through it all. Firstly, we have to accept that there is so much fakery, deception, and sheer lunacy, that the few honest people are really hard to find. It becomes a business, for many, selling 'the truth' to the faithful. Alien cults, for Pete's sake. Rael. The 'Higher Source' Heaven's Gate mob. Scientologists. That guy that sold UFO images on CD here, that eventually admitted he took photos of the sky, and then played with them in Photoshop until he saw things. Shameful.

So we have very little compelling data . Very few credible people, and a HUGE conspiracy theory.

Being a skeptic is the only place to be. I'll change my mind if I see compelling evidence. But just like the case for god, I haven't seen any yet. And, like evidence for god, I don't expect to be _sold_ such things.

 

In one of the Carlos Castenada books the character of Don Juan says to Carlos, "Just scratch the surface, and everyone believes in magic."

I was reminded of this a few years later when it came up in conversation that a friend, who was all business and no nonsence, revealed he felt he had had a psychic dream or two.

I've thought about this alot, and I believe the reason that just under the surface we all believe in "magic" (fill in the name of your "magic": UFOs, ghosts, telekinesis, etc) is that the fundamental perception of the world we form as children doesn't go away, it just gets overlaid with adult beliefs. The erroneous childhood beliefs stay, more dormant in some people than others.

 

Dude, the fringe is a necessity.. but that doesn't change the nature of the pardigm eh? I think the pardigm handles crackpottery quite well, as it should, with great skepticism.

Note that if crackpottery is true, then eventually the paradigm has no choice but to yield to it. IMO, that is beautiful.

You know I must be all fucked up. LOL. I have this propensity to think "everything is as it should be". Go figure eh?

 

I post evidence and no one responds. The posts just roll on by.

I have posted the Iran document a number of times but no one responds. (ivan seeking)

this is what i have noticed. i'll try again.

here is another that has been ignored. i'll add the belgium flap. shouldnt be that hard to debunk. an explantion for the phenomena should be offered. merely criticizing is not good enough

i will start a thread. the premise is simple. we know that sentient life is possible in the universe. (humans) we know of a habitable planet. (earth) we know of a spacefaring society in this universe. (humans)

i now postulate that it is probable that we are not alone, that there are other habitable planets
i further postulate that, given the ufo phenomena, we are being visited

let the debunkers come out in all their mad, dogmatic glory. i dare you!
it should be a cakewalk for you guys.

Keep your arguments as abstract and theoretical as possible. This will "send the message" that accepted theory overrides any actual evidence that might challenge it--and that therefore no such evidence is worth examining.

Avoid examining the actual evidence. This allows you to say with impunity, "I have seen absolutely no evidence to support such ridiculous claims!" (Note that this technique has withstood the test of time, and dates back at least to the age of Galileo. By simply refusing to look through his telescope, the ecclesiastical authorities bought the Church over three centuries' worth of denial free and clear!)

 

Re: Re: Why the skeptics fear UFOs, AKA The debunkers have something to hide

this is great! james cuts thru the bullshit like no other.

On July 19, 1952, both Washington National Airport and Andrews Air Force Base started getting a lot of returns on their radar screens, while at the same time lights in the sky were visible to the human eye. Andrews Air Force base was notified and two fighter jets were scrambled to intercept, but the objects disappeared by the time the F-94s arrived. (johnl)

what are these guys thinking off? rather than analyse radar, dispatch jets to investigate, they really should have the priests come out and explain the anomalies. perhaps a definitive report during sunday mass!

good going james.

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We can look for vague radar echos.

read it and weep! this just about sums up the pathological state of denial the pseudoskeptics labor under.

 

it is the procedure that is fucked up. the movement into the mainstream is marred with unecessary obstacles. your "peer reviewing to death". is a prime example. a legitimate procedure in the scientific method is being abused by a dogmatic establishment. i see no reason to tolerate this.

examples abound. the energy industry. i think we can move into a oil free economy right now! it is the current paradigm of the entrenched interests that is being forced down my throat. the same pseudo skeptical tactics used by ufo debunkers are employed by the industry against the alt energy crowd.

on and in it goes. instead of being dragged kicking and screaming into a new era of stuff, i'd rather they hang for treason

 

That's why you're a dirty leftist idealog.

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Hehe. I used to be one too.

Then I was educated. The IE program opened my eyes to realities I hadn't really contemplated prior to that experience. For instance, the amazing complicated bullshit it takes to make a simple shit like a ball-point pen. Pick up any object in the room you're in right now and study it. Do you have a freakin clue how it came to be? I mean, really have you thought about all the shit that goes into making sure there is gas for your car, or oil, or any of the related bullshit?

I'm not defending the oil industry, I'm trying to point out practical bullshit that the idealog seems to pave over with hap hap happy thoughts.

Uhm, spookz, my brother, have you considered the logistics of such a task? You don't switch energies overnight. SO many issues of note arise. A couple to consider might be:

The magnitude of sunk costs in the current energy industry and all the implicaitons thereof (which are staggeringly huge).

The infrastructure/distribution system required to collect, refine and distribute oil energy products.

The massive chunk of the economy that depends on oil money for stability, including banks, retailers, service companies, manufacturers... hell man I'll be most businesses AND individuals depend directly on the oil energy industry in ways they don't even realize. Don't forget about all the people who get their paychecks and thus support themselves and their families from it. This is all the way up and down the distribution system mentioned above.

Know what I mean?

Changes are imperative, but have to be implemented at a pace that leads to the smallest amount of disruption, because disruption leads to starvation.

The allocation of scarce resources man. Look into it.

If you are a pussy enough to let the bullshit be shoved down your throat, you deserve it. Nobody says you have to buy what they're selling. Most people do because they aren't capable of leaving the fold and still maintaining a rational perspective.

that is just such a load of paranoid crap. all conscious elements of all things at all times are moving to maximize their percieved profit function. get your mind around that and you'll see that the fuckers have a right to try to put up as many barriers to market entry as possible, and you have a right to get around them to the best of your ability. such is the way. if alternative shit was so damn smooth, we'd be using it right now, that's all there really is to it. remember to take into consideration that to be smooth... you have to be able to get it where it's needed. otherwise it's just absent and mofos aint happy.

indeed.

i can appreciate your zeal, but it is misplaced. you should be careful not to hang the man who feeds you, or someone you love.

 

you go off on a whacked tangent that is removed from what i speak off. what you say makes sense from a capitalist point of view. i approach it from the r&d angle. research is directed the current paradigm ala the industry status quo. those that have an independent bent are given short shrift. scientists are compromised by fat cheques to suppress or distort research.

Look into it.

you dare patronize me?

If you are a pussy enough to let the bullshit be shoved down your throat, you deserve it. Nobody says you have to buy what they're selling. Most people do because they aren't capable of leaving the fold and still maintaining a rational perspective.

why you miserable little shit. tell me how i can live a practical and efficient life adopting green technologies at this time without paying thru my ass? it is only when industry adopts these as routine and economies of scale make it possible to afford this stuff. until then i have to buy what they sell me. contrary to your fuckin opinion, i aint no long haired, wild eyed freak.

Uhm, spookz, my brother, have you considered the logistics of such a task? You don't switch energies overnight.

you fucking trolling my ass? scum! where did i say "overnight"

that is just such a load of paranoid crap.

lemme show you why it aint

*get past the leftist rhetoric moron

 

/you go off on a whacked tangent that is removed from what i speak off.

You gave an example. I showed why it was somewhat silly.

/what you say makes sense from a capitalist point of view.

just claiming it doesn't really help me understand why you think i'm on crack.

/i approach it from the r&d angle. research is directed the current paradigm ala the industry status quo.

research takes cash. you know how it works, why complain?

/those that have an independent bent are given short shrift.

*sigh*

Why do you think that is? Goddamn dude, you know if you can prove that your shit is straight someone will buy into it. The problem is actually doing that.

/scientists are compromised by fat cheques to suppress or distort research.

It's all part of the process. I agree that shit should be minimized, but how do you propose to control it? IMO, it has to work itself out on its own.

/you dare patronize me?

I guess. It just didn't seem like you were really thinking much when you said " i think we can move into a oil free economy right now!", so I gave you a damn speech as to why that wasn't very well thought out.

/why you miserable little shit.

miserable little shit? show some respect, ass. you know my comments are in earnest. they might not be applicable or useful, but that.. hey quit making me defend my intent asshole. I don't appreciate it and you shoudl fucking know better.

/tell me how i can live a practical and efficient life adopting green technologies at this time without paying thru my ass?

i don't see how that is pertinent. obviously, it is not economically feasible to blah blah through green blah blah or mofos would be all up in it.

/it is only when industry adopts these as routine and economies of scale make it possible to afford this stuff.

so you think your punk ass should just prescribe what industry should or shouldn't do? do you even understand the problem? can you demonstrate that you do? have you ever had to cost justify the procurement of new equipment spookz? i gaurentee that if it were financially gainful for industry to adopt "these" as you put it, they would be all over it. do you think they are stupid?

/until then i have to buy what they sell me.

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I think you're talking out your ass.

/contrary to your fuckin opinion, i aint no long haired, wild eyed freak.

whatever hippy.

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hehe.

/you fucking trolling my ass? scum!

You know it's funny that the biggest fucking troll on this board would project that bullshit onto everyone he encounters. get this through your fucking skull - ass, i don't fucking troll.

/where did i say "overnight"

Sure seemed like this " i think we can move into a oil free economy right now!" implies overnight. further, if you don't mean over night, then you can be happy that the transition has already started, they are still in the phase of determining which will win out for the replacement though.

/lemme show you why it aint

/*get past the leftist rhetoric moron

You saying you're a leftist rhetoric moron?

Spookz, calling me a fucking moron or an idiot is really fucking well, idiotic and moronic. Cut the fucking bullshit asshole. I don't appreciate it.

 

You know it's funny that the biggest fucking troll on this board would project that bullshit onto everyone he encounters. get this through your fucking skull - ass, i don't fucking troll.

answer the fucking question. where did i say "overnight". "right now" only implies that we have the tech and it can be implemented

you imply i demand "overnight" changes, you fucking try to paint me as unreasonable and unrealistic. that is trolling.

i do not give a damn what you appreciate! comprende? if you cannot adopt a civil fucking tone with me, expect the same. do not fucking whine, boy!

 

/answer the fucking question. where did i say "overnight". "right now" only implies that we have the tech and it can be implemented.

I already answered the question. To me your "right now" implied we should just bail on everything we have, adopt something new and go with it. If you meant something different, you could have simply stated so and avoided accusing me of trolling and calling me a moron, bitch.

/you imply i demand "overnight" changes, you fucking try to paint me as unreasonable and unrealistic. that is trolling.

Fuck you. Your statement seemed that way to me. I did not attack your character, call you stupid, blah blah. I did give you shit about being a leftist, but I figured you smart enough to know I was just giving you hell you dirty hippy bastard.

/i do not give a damn what you appreciate!

Then you're an asshole.

/comprende?

Clear enough.

/if you cannot adopt a civil fucking tone with me, expect the same. do not fucking whine, boy!

Show me where I whined hypocrite. Show me where my tone was not civil asshole. You know you get what you give with me brother. I would expect more from you. You have to show respect to get it.

 

To me your "right now" implied we should just bail on everything we have, adopt something new and go with it.

excellent. your lack of respect and the fact you should know that nobody in their right mind could expect to "bail on everything". yet you assume that i do. you do not bother to give me the benefit of the doubt or ask for clarification. for chrissake! how would i get to goddamn work, if there aint no gas at the pump? no alternatives! and this scenario is what you would have me implementing overnight?

it is your lack of fucking respect is what brings this on

Show me where I whined hypocrite.

"Spookz, calling me a fucking moron or an idiot is really fucking well, idiotic and moronic. Cut the fucking bullshit asshole. I don't appreciate it."

Show me where my tone was not civil asshole.

"If you are a pussy enough to let the bullshit be shoved down your throat, you deserve it.

"that is just such a load of paranoid crap.

You know you get what you give with me brother.

my sentiments exactly. lets play

You have to show respect to get it.

my words as well. this could get interesting. since the head seem to be on hiatus or recuperating, you can sub

 

research takes cash. you know how it works, why complain?

what are you nuts? how it works? accept the status quo? be a good little worker?

Why do you think that is? Goddamn dude, you know if you can prove that your shit is straight someone will buy into it. The problem is actually doing that.

doing what? proving or buying? if i have to settle for a sub standard product simply because market forces dictate i have to

It's all part of the process. I agree that shit should be minimized, but how do you propose to control it? IMO, it has to work itself out on its own.

reform, oversight, regulations. there are tons of socialistic laws that look after the interests of the consumer. what country do you live in? microsoft? baby bells? blah?

I guess. It just didn't seem like you were really thinking much when you said " i think we can move into a oil free economy right now!", so I gave you a damn speech as to why that wasn't very well thought out.

no, you said.... "the allocation of scarce resources. look into it". what resources? oil? cash?

i don't see how that is pertinent. obviously, it is not economically feasible to blah blah through green blah blah or mofos would be all up in it.

why you shit, didnt you advise me to...["Nobody says you have to buy what they're selling." and you now claim it aint "pertinent"? troll!

so you think your punk ass should just prescribe what industry should or shouldn't do? do you even understand the problem? can you demonstrate that you do? have you ever had to cost justify the procurement of new equipment spookz? i gaurentee that if it were financially gainful for industry to adopt "these" as you put it, they would be all over it. do you think they are stupid?

yes! the govt regulates all industry that pertains to infrastructure. the govt represents me. i dictate! secondly. restructuring major industries is usually done under govt auspices with my money!

You know it's funny that the biggest fucking troll on this board

show me a deliberate troll. i dare you! show me malice/misrepresentation/deceit! i dare you!

 

one liner

the energy industry. i think we can move into a oil free economy right now! (spookz)

you must be hungry wes, to troll this thread on a sentence

 

/excellent. your lack of respect and the fact you should know that nobody in their right mind could expect to "bail on everything". yet you assume that i do.

whatever dude. i went with what I thought you said. you could have easily corrected me yet you chose to troll. *shrug*

/you do not bother to give me the benefit of the doubt or ask for clarification.

bah, it seemed obvious. to me "right now" is fucking "right now". don't blame me for your poor choice of words, correct me if I mistake your fucking meaning.

/for chrissake! how would i get to goddamn work, if there aint no gas at the pump? no alternatives!

my point is that alternatives for things so pervasive and needed are not simple. i'm guessing to change major fuel sources in a society like this is a minimum of 20 years given current stuff. yet you seem to summarize it as "i think we can move into a oil free economy right now!". any suggestions on which fuel? have to performed a long term feasibility study? how will it be complimented or dissed by emerging tech?

/and this scenario is what you would have me implementing overnight?

that's what it basically sounded like you were saying, yeah. hey I can't keep track of where you stashed your brain. hehe.

/it is your lack of fucking respect is what brings this on

it couldn't possibly be that you had a poor choice of words or a simple misunderstanding right?

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you have still selectively avoided more poinyant issues to haggle about stupid bullshit. don't whine boy!

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dude, your statement is still basically the same. come on then spooks, what energy source should industry start switching to? fuel cells are on the way you know, some businesses (though very few at this point, as it is still new tech) have already switched. are you going to go out and perform the risk analysis/cost benefit analysis of procuring equipment for all those compainies you think shoudl be hung as traitors? YOU are the punk who is lacking respect for the shit that is keeping you alive and comfy right now. Diss it if you want but I'm gonna splain to you why I think you're wrong for doing so.

you see spookz, i want to understand. about some things I think i DO understand. we could make this productive, but you want to troll eh? then you call me disrespectful?

/Show me where I whined hypocrite.

/"Spookz, calling me a fucking moron or an idiot is really fucking well, idiotic and moronic. Cut the fucking bullshit asshole. I don't appreciate it."

That is a statement of fact.

/Show me where my tone was not civil asshole.

/"If you are a pussy enough to let the bullshit be shoved down your throat, you deserve it.

That is a statement of fact.

/"that is just such a load of paranoid crap.

That is a statement of opinion, exactly what it seemed to me. If you don't think it is, explain yourself. How is that uncivil? It sounded like a damn load of paranoid crap. Shall we revisit? "the same pseudo skeptical tactics used by ufo debunkers are employed by the industry against the alt energy crowd." Yeah, it still seems like a load of paranoid crap. I already explained why.