i am hindu and live wth moslems all my life and know wat they belive and wat not but you christians sound like universe's most confuse people. i disagree with both of you but again i think christian confused them self pretty bad.
Please discuss the points raised in contention if you want to quote from it. I'm not trying to prove that christians are better than muslims but if you can't say why you think christians are confused or what sect of christians you think are confused, then there's really no point even trying to discuss anything with you.
Well, since you wont give a straight answer in any form, I might as well dig deeper. The simple point is, that starting a thread like this is quite pointless, merely an occaision to slag off a religion you dislike. Then, you seem to post from the Quran a lot, yet take umbrage at the thread on the origins of said Quran. Therefore, I smell some double standards. If you are simlpy you, why this urgent need to debate how bad some other religion is with people? From my point as an agnostic, its silly, just get on with yous own religion and youll find out eventually how it goes.
Well I don't mind Flores questions. It's odd that she uses Pslam 22. It's somewhat of a messianic prophesy but beyond that, there's no reason to believe that it is a literal prophesy. Eve means the mother of all women. Before the fall, she was called the women. Similarly, Mary the women who is sinless is called the women by Jesus and John. The verses before this creation account say, "In the image God he created them male and female" or something ilke that. There's no reason to assume that women were not created in the image of God. Here, you might want to compare your creation interpretation with the gnostic interpretations of these verses. If Adam was created perfectly, then where did this negative force come from? There are men who are vegetarians if you haven't noticed. I hope you are joking. Your claim to women's superiority is similar to Hitler's claims concerning the Jews. Why do you suppose women were the first slaves? I thought that you just said that the positive force was women? Wouldn't a union of the positive and negative forces create an imperfect slightly negative and slightly positive being?
You can't dig deeper with me, you'll be so disapointed and bored, because I'm as simple as could be...All you're going to get is what I've been saying all along. That's not true. I respect christians quite a bit, and that's why I question some of the things that I can't understand. Not because I dislike them, that's not me...I question christians the same way I hammer my sister and my husband on certain issues just to bridge the gaps in thoughts and reach closer understanding and compremises. The end product is two educated entities and a whole lot of understanding and closeness. I believe I have made myself clear on the thread origins of Quran. While I don't care much about the origin of a peace of work, I'm quite interested in the content and merit of the works. Posts from the Quran that I use, I find quite amazing and true and I use them like I would quote Socrates or any other philosopher. I don't care if Socrates had a failed marriage and was quite an unrightous dude...I liked his views on rightousness and that's how I view the Quran..merely from a content point of view. You are smelling your own upper lip for that's the most closest to you... I don't sense any urgency???Why do you sense any?? My world has existed fine before and through and after sciforums....Don't mistake pass time BS with urgency. I'm not waiting for you to click by Start button....My life is going on as we speak.
That's where I and other muslims disagree with you. God know the outcome of every action, yet we chose the action to make from an array of choices also known by god. God doesn't force us to commit evil nor good. We commit and our reactions are delineated in god's eternal map. I don't seek to change your mind regarding Jesus as god, although it bothers me quite a bit not to see eye on eye with you on that point. Something deep inside of me prohibits me from associating anyone with my creator...accepting that my god is a human like Jesus is the equivalent of chaining me for eternity in a hell fire....I won't define my creator and I won't place him in a jar of my making...I will hold up my idealistic high undefinable views about my creator in a place that couldn't be touched and I seek that place for refuge againest any hardship. But such a thing is terribly wrong and prohibited by the Quran. I didn't say that being dead gets us closer to god. It merely exposes to us the truth about our lives and we might like or not like what we see. I don't accept 80% of what MW says about god...specially the fact that we are gods and we are already in heaven....Are you happy now? So do I with every bone in my body. And which cult doctrin are you speaking of? I don't care to get to deep in this discussion because it's void. The key is to live our lives knowing that we are under the ever watchfull eyes of god.. God is always present for the good and the bad....This on it's own is the greatest deterrent from sin. God still watches sinners, but sinners don't care about god so they continue what they're doing...Others feel god's presence in their life more and are more carefull to act properly in the presence of god. I feel god's presence more in private..I almost feel every step I take and the air is quite heavy for me when I'm alone. God is always present, but feeling god's presence is a mental state.
Alot of Christians as well but there is a muslim sect that believes sort of what I believe on this issue. I simply believe that God could if he wanted to know our actions. Yet to give us free will, he allows us to make our own decisions. This is supported somewhat by the words used by Moses in the old testamented. Moses said that Yahweh was testing them in order to find out if they truely loved them. A God who knows the future would not need to find out nor test. Thus I interpret "all-knowing" to be the past, preset, and good deal of the future but not the entire future. God may know the future consequences of every possible choice but not know the choice we will make. Well do what your concience demands. I don't claim to define God who defines himself. In some ways it seems that you are limiting God's humbleness. Yes, I know. It's wrong not because the skin is between you and God but because suicide is sinful. Denial of sin seperating us from God would result in a similar conclusion to that which I gave you. I thought you would be happy. There was quite a few suicide cults.
I believe in that also. God taught this concept in detail to Moses in the Quran. Remember the story of the angle that Moses was allowed to follow on the condition that he doesn't ask him why the angel did the thing he did under the command of god. Another aspect of free will that people often miss is accepting god's will and being in peace with it. We often acts out on our will and refuse to accept god's will....death is a good example. Thanks I don't wish to impose humbleness on god, because that's an oxymoron....meaning that I'm belittling god. Muslim say Allaho Akbar, meaning god is great..We don't say that god is humble. Suicide is indeed sinful except when you are saving another person....Isn't that what christians proclaim Jesus or god did??. Gave up his only son to save the world. I don't believe the concept, but it's as close to suicide as suicide gets. And they are all crazy...first for joining a cult, and second for wasting a valuable life that was given to them by god. People that take their lives away don't deserve a break from god.
Well one of the things that Moses said was to follow God because God is holy. Those who are holy are humble and I find greatness in humbleness. When you say that God is merciful, it is a rejection of God's pridefulness. Since as muslims you believe that God is the source of all goodness, unless if humbleness is evil, God is humble. Jesus did not commit suicide. He was going to die and he merely let the world kill him.
Nope, that still doesnt make that much sense. Or rather it does, but obliquely. Maybe you can learn to do it in a nicer way then. Well if the origins simply dont matter, why question someones interest in them? FAiling that, at the end of the day, quoting bits you like from the Quran is in a way, merely subjective. Suits you, but how do yuo know its right? Maybe I have a cold. oh right, so it is just pass time BS to you? I never intended to press any of your buttons.
I have no idea, and don't start pointing fingers - It wasn't me! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Perhaps not so much in (most) Christian Doctorine, but in the religions of India it is accpeted that, for example, Kali is Brahma, God is both iminate and trancendent, it is not a condradiction, and infact teaches one of the most important aspects of Advaita Vedanta. You can see this same view expressed in such schools of thought as Kabbalah and Sufism, to give them rough terms, and (is) can be applied in terms of Christianity. Though in the Judaic/Christian/Islamic traditions those that have attained oness with God ie. "I am in my Father, and my Father in Me" "Moses came like one of those who are consumed by desire and lost in love. Moses came without Moses. He came when nothing of Moses remained in Moses." are not usualy Deiafied, aprt from Jesus, but this is quite ok, are your devotion isn't to any man, but to The Word, or Logos, (Another name Sat, -Meister Eckhart wrote, "Between the Soul and The Onle Begotten Son, there is no difference") so it not realy realy anything but sevotion to your own true self, which is one with God, it IS none other than devotion to God, though not the negatively existant, Father. The statement of, "I AM," and "I AM THAT I AM" are expressing this non-dual state of consciousness that exists in a person completely unified with God, the same thing can be found in Buddhism, Taoism, (we have covered,) Hinduism, Islam, and most genuine esoteric/occult sects.
I don't quite see becoming one with God, one with God's plan in perfect submision would make us "I AM". You mean this don't you? "are not usually Deified, apart from Jesus, but this quite ok because your devotion isn't to any man, but to The Word, or Logos" Worshiping that which is not God is falsehood.
Then wouldn't being a Christian be a sacrelige in itself? If there is just one God, and Jesus is not it, then wouldn't worshipping, praying to, holding as holy and basing a religion on the words of this mere man break at least the first commandment? Regarding this topic in general... From an old post of mine on this forum:
:bugeye: Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! I don't know what that is response to. You quoted me where I was saying that his early followers imbellished the tales of Jesus and his actions, and said that? Sorry, I have no idea what you are talking about. Please explain it.
The Word IS God, John:1+ God is I AM, we don't we become this, "When the Perfect comes, the part passes away" There is only God. A concequence of this is that we become as near to perfect as a human can be, which entails being a vessle for divine will.
Yeah, you have given the steps how Jesus needed to be God to christians, that you don't agree with. But the presence of Holy Ghost besides the 'unique' God (unique - as declared by God himself) tells something to me (though most of the christians might not agree with me !). That, holy ghost is the attributes of God in action and Jesus is one of the main attributes, Love (in flesh). Follow the path of Love you get redemption and if you follow other paths that are not as manifested explicitly as Love then there is a chance of straying. Jesus seems to be the safest path to christians. Before the christians and atheists bounce on me, say "Merry Christmas". Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
That's suicide. I'm not saying that Jesus did that, because I don't believe in that. You have two choices to explain Jesus death: 1- Jesus was indeed at the mercy of the romans, then Jesus was killed or murdered. 2- Jesus died for a preset purpose of saving humanity and he accepted to die in advance, then his death was planned and it's indeed suicide. So you either killed him or he crucified himself in a suicide...Which one is it? The third option that muslims and I follow is: The Women [4.157] And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the apostle of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure.
I didn't question the interest nor was I the starter of the Origin of the Quran thread. I'll say this one more time in different words and I hope you get it. "Digging deeper can always explain inconsistencies, but it will never explain perfection." Reading the Quran doesn't leave me with a sense that I need to dig any deeper. Reading the bible leaves me with a great sense and need of digging deeper. And hence come my infinite questions and the subject of this thread. Of course it's subjective and i never claimed it to be anything else. I subjectively with every personal bone in my body inspired and intrigued by the Quran and certain parts of the bible. And I know it's right the same way I know and I sure that I'm alive. It's an individual feeling, and It makes sense to ME. the keyword being ME. Absolutely.....I'm in the same boat as you.
