God is evil or having limited power?

Tony,

Perhaps it's not all that easy to distinguish between what is christian and non-christian. After all, many fundemental aspects of Christian doctrine are derived from earlier pagan beliefs.

But of course this problem vanishes if you elect yourself pope. Christinity, in your case for example, is defined in terms of one's own opinions of what the religion should be. I only wish I shared such infallibility.


"This is something I would expect Satan to get pissed off about."

*lol* That's just rich. If you dislike close-mindedness you're a lot like satan.

 

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Actually this is the opposite. Some of the superficial aspects of the Bible are shared in common with paganisms. But the fundamental aspects are in stark contrast with paganism. Even when God gave Israel the Law, he did not demand that they follow it, but asked if they would. God held them to the law only if they agreed with the law, and if any individual did not want to live under the law, they could move to a neighboring nation. Pagan gods demand worship and coerce into obedience.

Simple belief to become saved is opposite of pagan religious beliefs who bribe into following a strict path of works to get you into heaven. In pagan religions, you must do a certain set of things that can outwardly be seen by others. In the Bible it is the heart that matters--the Pharisees at the time who did every outward aspect of the law of God were lashed out against by Jesus, because the motive matters. The basis of Christian faith is a desire for Jesus. Through the desire to follow Jesus comes the works seen by people. The heart is paramount--and it is this that is judged for entrance into heaven. Works are only judged later, after who gets into heaven or hell is decided.

Lastly the people represented in the Bible have faults that are detrimental to the story. Pagan texts either do not include such faults or gloss over them if they must be mentioned. Pagan texts create super people as their saints who follow their gods perfectly. The Bible is strikingly opposite, chronicling the centuries of disobedience of God's <i>chosen people</i>. And even the close followers of Jesus scatter and deny Him at His greatest hour of need. Paganisms would not dare suggest such a thing.

 

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*Originally posted by synaesthesia
Perhaps it's not all that easy to distinguish between what is christian and non-christian. After all, many fundemental aspects of Christian doctrine are derived from earlier pagan beliefs. *
At least, that is what pagans would have us believe.

I do admit that many pagan beliefs bear some similarity to Christian beliefs.
However, I suspect that you are unaware of the sense of humor that the demonic realm possesses.
It is gallows humor, of course, but unfortunately you are the butt of the joke.

An example, "salvation" is relatively common Christian term.
Now, one religion, I can't remember the name (Eckankar, perhaps?), proposes to have people believe that, sure, Jesus exists, but he is from the planet "Salvington."

Imagine the chuckles when someone falls for that one.

You see, Satan doesn't just give up when someone begins to believe in God.
He has a pile of alternate proposals available.

These alternate proposals are where those pagan beliefs come from.

*But of course this problem vanishes if you elect yourself pope.*
Another alternate proposal.

*Christinity, in your case for example, is defined in terms of one's own opinions of what the religion should be.*
Actually, I've got the Bible as a guide.

*If you dislike close-mindedness you're a lot like satan. *

Hey, satan's the most open-minded guy going.
He doesn't care what you believe as long as you die believing it.

 

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"I do admit that many pagan beliefs bear some similarity to Christian beliefs. However, I suspect that you are unaware of the sense of humor that the demonic realm possesses. It is gallows humor, of course, but unfortunately you are the butt of the joke."

More than some, and the practice of such beliefs predates christianity. Perhaps christianity is the demonic alternative sent to lead us away from the God made flesh, born of a virgin, who promises that we will be born again, who turned water into wine, who died and rose again. I am, of course, talking about Osiris, a pagan God.

Oh, yes, thedevildidit. Or was it that the pagan religions had a cultural influence on the development of christianity? The latter theory does have parsimony, conservatism and testability that the former lacks. That's worth some thought.

I wrote:
"Christinity, in your case for example, is defined in terms of one's own opinions of what the religion should be."
To which Tony replies:
"Actually, I've got the Bible as a guide."

You've missed my point tony. Of course by definition christians have the bible as their Guide. That's Christians up to and including the Catholic church. "Ah, but they don't have the true bible!" That may be so but to come to that conclusion you made a judgement based upon sources outside of the bible. (There is also the possibility that your teachers and/or parents made the judgement for you.)

As for those who have the correct bible, there are as many versions of what the bible means as there are people to read it. People do not just differ in minor aspects, there are many important differences of opinion as to how the bible relates to our lives and what it means. Even though all of these people have the bible as their guide, as do you, they come to different conclusions. They make their own judgements, as do you. Similarly, their judgements are reinforced by the opinions of the people around them, by their life experiences and by all the other factors which solidify other supersitions. The doctrine of the Bible's perfection as a guide, (or that of the Korans, Dr. Seuss or the Satanic Bible) undeniably relies upon one's interpretation and selective thinking more than upon any fact of the matter.ˇ

 

*Originally posted by synaesthesia
Perhaps christianity is the demonic alternative sent to lead us away from the God made flesh, born of a virgin, who promises that we will be born again, who turned water into wine, who died and rose again. I am, of course, talking about Osiris, a pagan God.*
Hopefully, you haven't forgotten that the Jews, who had the Old Testament spent hundreds of years living, as a nation, among the Eqyptians.
Of course, that predates Christianity, too, which would explain the timing.
Some of the Egyptians are bound to have heard statements made by Jews.

*Oh, yes, thedevildidit. Or was it that the pagan religions had a cultural influence on the development of christianity?*
You may have a point there.
At one point, the Jews did make a point of getting their swords sharpened by the Philistines, who did make a point of actually sharpening them

Sidebar: why would the Philistines sharpen the swords of their enemies?

*The latter theory does have parsimony, conservatism and testability that the former lacks. That's worth some thought.*
Yes, think, think, think.
I gave it some thought.

*Of course by definition christians have the bible as their Guide. That's Christians up to and including the Catholic church.
"Ah, but they don't have the true bible!"*
Well, whatever Bible they have they don't believe, so the issue of which Bible they have is moot.
Of course, not believing the Bible they do have pretty much disqualifies them from being Christians.

*(There is also the possibility that your teachers and/or parents made the judgement for you.)*
A possibility, maybe, an actuality, no.
I can't think of a single teacher I've had that was a Christian and my parents aren't.

*As for those who have the correct bible, there are as many versions of what the bible means as there are people to read it.*
The more accurate way of phrasing that would be that there are as many versions of the Bible as there are people who do NOT read it.

*Even though all of these people have the bible as their guide, as do you, they come to different conclusions.*
Of course, having a guide is not the same as using it.

*The doctrine of the Bible's perfection as a guide, (or that of the Korans, Dr. Seuss or the Satanic Bible) undeniably relies upon one's interpretation and selective thinking more than upon any fact of the matter.*
Interestingly, that is quite true.
I've selected the Bible as the source of wisdom.
Others select whatever, pretty much at random, or as influenced by teachers, parents, etc.

One should never underestimate the influence of teachers.
Take questioning as an example.

How many people were told by their teachers to question, question, question in order to learn?
The silly fools, did they forget to tell you that answers are how you actually learn?

 

Try again, Tony1, but have better material next time

Chalk up another vote for Tony1's self-centered faith.

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Nice excuse

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I love the way Christians resort to the response, "Well, they aren't Christians." So exclusive a club y'all have, where so many of you think that people whose ideas don't exactly mimick yours are wrong. After all, it's the perfect tale, it's one message, and it's accessible and therefore clearly stated, right? That's why everyone seems to get different results. Sure you can point to love thy neighbor, but, as with most of Chrisitian "love", there is a question of how loving it is, as opposed to how satisfying it is to the Christian's needy ego.

Ahhh ... the Devil did it.

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So these aren't actual Christians, as you've claimed, but Christians under the Satanic sway of everyone with more convincing, more demonstrable faiths? How is it that the Devil's diversity crept in?

So they're not actual Christians? They believe too much of other people's philosophies? You're really limiting the number here.

Again, what is an actual Christian?

So far we see 1) They aren't Christians.
2) They are Christians but they've been taught by Buddhists.
3) They are Christians but they believe Hindus.
4) They are Christians but they don't tend to their faith.

Tony1, what is an actual Christian?

Tony1, your statements are exactly what indicates that such diversity is not acceptable to you. There are many Christians who would think you're nuts, but, since they disagree with you, they're either not Christians, or they are Christians who believe in other doctrines? :rolleyes"

How ridiculous can you get, Tony1?

I might wonder how you know the character of Satan so well ....

You can do better than that, Tony1 ... can't you?

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Aww, look at that ... Tony1 has learned to repeat people. Do better, Tony1.

Yes, we might.

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Tony1, why are you so afraid to look at how involvement with this book affects the individiuals who involve themselves? The failure of the Bible to incite society to behave any better than under any other condition is expected; however, since Christians are supposed to be walking in the way of Christ, we would think the quality of life would increase where there are large numbers of Christians. You can make a case for income, but you can also make a case for the actual state of the society around us: Christians note the recent social chaos whenever complaining that they can't force kids to pray Christian prayers in schools. Is it somehow irrelevant? Of course it is! Now quality of life is defined by ... well, what is it today? Since the Christians decide, and ne'er shall the standards meet ....?

Then why did you say it was, silly?

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Really, are you that dumb?

In other words, you have no clue what you're talking about, much less what I am talking about. Thanks for clearing that up, Tony1.

Actually, Tony1, if you weren't so busy trying to convince yourself you're smart, you might have noticed that I've never said it should be made illegal. Rather, I'd like y'all to start putting your money where your mouth is, and show the benefits of Christian living to society, instead of dragging it down. Of course, I don't expect you to be capable of that.

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,
Tiassa

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Yes. It seems to me that Christians go out of their way to find religions to complain about. I'm sorry, but I just don't hear witches complaining about books in school libraries; I don't even hear it from Jews and Muslims; I don't hear it from Buddhists, Hindus, atheists, Theosophists, or Yzedic Devil Worshippers. Music? Gender equality? Hello?

Indeed they are. It was during my lifetime that the last people were prosecuted for witchcraft and sorcery in the US. British anti-sorcery laws remained in place until the second half of the 20th century, as well.

Who ever said that I wanted to ban Christianity? I would rather that Christians stop claiming the power to ostracize ideas and people as their right. I wish Christians would start living up to some of that loving potential they spend so much time huffing about. In other words, I would love to see some evidence that your faith has a better effect on society than doling out food to hungry people that need not be hungry. I would love to see Christianity fix some of the miseries it takes on instead of simply treating the symptoms in hopes of reaping the converts. Let your strength be your calling card, not the hopelessness of living in a society where Christians are among the most divisive voices.

Let's take this slowly.

1) Dan the poor fool pagan converts to Christianity.
2) What is Dan's commitment toward God?
3) Dan must cease the behavior God calls sinful.
4) Why is sinful behavior sinful? Because it hurts people. (Or, rather, it hurts God, which shows that this whole thing is just a pathetic ego trip, so I'm trying to stay with the applicable instead fo noting the delusional aspect of your faith.)
5) When Dan ceases sinful--hurtful--behavior, less people are being hurt by his actions.
6) When many people take the faith, shouldn't their collective behavior be less hurtful than the sinners'?

Or is that too much to ask?

If you're acting like the savages you're trying to transcend, what is the purpose? To be redeemed for being just as much of a sinner? It seems then that it's greed that compels the faithful, and if you're only adhering to God's word solely to earn salvation, it won't work, because then you're praying loudly on the streetcorner like a hypocrite: Look, God, notice me! I did another good thing today ... must be right on that fast-track to the heavenly abode ....

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Be it, don't dream it.

thanx,
Tiassa

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Yes, this is true, and it happens countless times all across the country and the world. It is often not only less hurtful but very helpful to the people involved.

We aren't--name something bad done by Christians, and I'll name something worse done by pagans. It is dishonest to hold up some fringe part of any group up and characterize the whole group that way.

I think Lieberman was on the crusade to stop R-rated films from being advertised to children. As far as political concerns are, I'm not even going to consider any argument about Christianity being bad because it counters some part of a value-system you made up for yourself. You're not going to force your value system on me.

You don't have to do much to "earn your salvation". Here's what a theif on a cross next to Jesus did:

Then he [the thief] said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom." Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."
Luke 23:42-43

It is clear here that a Christian can be sure he's going to heaven within several seconds. Good acts follow after this assurance is already in place. Christians do good acts out of their love for God, not because God is holding out a carrot on a stick.

 

I guess you are thinking that giving people food in third world coutries is taking advantage of them? Now I see you lack of compassion. Asking us to give an example but just skimp out on all of the neccessities of life.

What do you mean? they can have birth control if they want? However, I do disagree with the pill since it is aborting the child albeit in an extremely early state. But it is that persons choice to have sex if they want to. This is why in Christianity you aren't supposed to have sex before marriage.

But what about other Satanists who killed their parents. Raped chidren. Pulled six week old puppies apart at Marilyn Manson rock concerts, have anal sex on stage, rape women on stage. Which is the true satanist? If anyone who claimed to be Christian did these things, I would probably say they were the satanist.

Now if everyone who does these things what I have just stated and also does what you stated this brings a definite contradiction. What I have stated hurts many. What you have stated hurts none. So which am I to believe is the true satanist? Or are they all satanist?

You say
"and, like I noted, the Satanist crimes were largely committed by people whose faith was reactionary and not genuine."

and also

"Sure, they're Satanists, but they're individuals, like the individual Christians who commit crimes against other people."

I Say
Their faith is not genuine and they are still individuals. The individual has the choice to go against the teaching of the faith. But doing so does not imply that the faith teaches what the individual has done.

They may be poor answers but certainly not any poorer than the people who Christianity helps.

I often wonder what you really want when I give examples of how Christianity helps those less fortunate then ourselves helping them to survive because they've been dealt worser cards then ourselves. I am beginning to think that you really don't care about these people. You accuse Christianity of not doing anything, perhaps you should open your eyes and take a look around. I'm not talking about newspapers and media. There are a lot of quiet achievers who do not help others to gain media coverage but to actually help others. Some governments even depend on us. If it wasn't for handing out desperately needed food supplies many would be dead, while you call me cheap. You may think of my posts as cheap, but please do not speak of the least of my brethren when you mock them.

 

So shallow, Deadwood ... so ... Now

Deadwood--

Aah, so contemporary, and so devoted to the righteousness of those enthralled by the faith ....

I like the way you take the typically-Christian leap. I say something about feeding those who need not be hungry (as in, in the first place), and you take that as a statement against feeding the hungry? The question at hand is how to reduce the number of hungry people, but the charity of feeding a hungry soul is so much more appealing and visible, isn't it? Did you miss the point on purpose? It wouldn't surprise me.

In the case of Africa and Southeast Asia, we might make a case based on Weber's The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism, that the larger miseries suffered by the third world are economic necessities based upon the Capitalist model. Certainly that Capitalist spirit has driven a number of social ills, and if Weber's derivations are accurate--as they seem to be--then something so absurd as the American capitalism which depends on the suffering of other people found its origin among the ethical structure of Protestant Chrisitan faith. It's a point worth examining.

And then, yes, the feeding of the hungry is taking advantage of them because to begin to fix the problem--to create the ability among these people to feed themselves (to teach the men to fish, as the Bible quip goes)--is apparently too expensive for the bottom line. One is maintaining the symptom to reap the profit generated by the disease.

But, to be more specific, I was speaking of something much more direct. Take homeless youth for example. Some chose to leave home because of troubles perceived in their familial relationship; some feel alienated by various forms of abuse. Yet we see outreach with a focus on conversion, instead of an effort to rally the Christian consciences to encourage their children to stay in the stability of the family. Sure, it's charitable to feed them, but it does seem like a racket when society does its utmost to create more homeless youth. Perhaps a more educated application of Christian values in those Christian homes fled by desperate youth would reduce the number of hungry mouths to feed, sell, or exploit. One might choose, in their Christian conscience, to not only act against the symptom, but to demand social policies which combat the greater disease. In this case, I look to the term liberal religion, which scholar Peter Williams defines as:

When I see charity relief focused on transmitting the religious message, I often wonder if one is working toward a beneficient social environment, or else recruiting (as such, in the US) numbers to exploit democracy toward the continuance of values demonstrated to create the alienation, the pressure, the confines in which the homeless and hungry are bred. The failure of any faithful to adequately address this issue goes a long way toward my conclusion that the larger part of Christian charity is wasted, since the values of those Christians will compel them to contribute to a malevolent social environment. But that's just what is observable in my culture, and we know that what is observable takes a back seat to proclaimed dogma any day.

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In the modern day, some women can have birth control. But in our country, Christians still rage against it, along with sex education and the other things that prevent unwanted children being raised in alienating homes. But this is the modern perspective; Emma Goldman was thrown in prison in the early part of the 20th century for offending Christian sensibilities--she advocated birth control. Heck, a potential cancer treatment was made illegal in this country for a number of years because one of its components can be used in a drug cocktail to cause a miscarriage. The 1980's, in the face of growing venereal epidemic and a rising teen birth rate, saw our surgeon general advocating pushing his president's line: abstinence is the only appropriate solution. Now, since you've mentioned sex before marriage, whence comes the idea that one is endangering their soul, as the pandemic parental declaration seemed to be in religious homes where a young female was discovered to be sexually active? This, I believe, is part of the greater sense of alienation that, for instance, compels youths to move to the street. I knew girls who came to school with bruises: not because their boyfriends put them there, but because their loving parents did in an effort to show them how unchristian their behavior was. But I live in a state where we continually argue over whether or not youth have the right or capability of establishing their own sanity, so I can't imagine why they would be alienated, therefore fleeing, and therefore lost and hungry.

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What about Christians who rape their children and keep them silent with myths of hell and punishment: don't say anything about it because the Bible says not to say anything bad about Mommy and Daddy--it's in the Ten Commandments. Now you and I know this is exploitative crap, but to the mind of a child between, say, two and ten, who routinely vomits her own father's ejaculate ... it's a different world.

Now, you have brought to light an interesting conundrum. I, for one, will not claim that These people to whom you refer are not Satanists. To the other, nor will I claim that they are not Democrats, Republicans, country music fans, ad nauseam. Which of these labels shall we blame for their crimes? Here we see people who do not understand the tenets of their faith, yet how many of these Satanists to whom you refer are even familiar with the points outlined by Anton LaVey, who wrote the modern interpretation of Satanism? I can guarantee you that, in gross numbers, more crimes have been committed against children, more cruelties visited on animals, and more profitable sex acts performed by people claiming to believe in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior than those who are Satanists. To say that a Christian committing such crimes is a satanist is a cheap excuse: this misguided Christian is still a Christian--that they are misguided is an issue of interpretation and communication. Apparently God spoke to them so clearly that they couldn't understand. And I know it's nice to have a Devil at this point to write the communicative failure to, but that's as cheap an answer as any, since God is superlative in his knowledge and capability.

You'll have to be more clear if I miss your point. But I think that voting for a tax cut while knowing that one is reducing the educative power of a beneficient social environment in order to finance that personal reward is sinful through greed. I think many people are hurt by the simple effect of that many other people pursuing their own ends without regard for the effects. It reminds me of Castaic, California, where a bored kid took a Zippo to a sagebrush, and accidentally ended up burning thousands of acres. Should we blame the kid for starting the fire? Heck, he only set the one brush on fire; the rest aren't his problem ....

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You can claim all you want that this or that act of impropriety is "not Christian"--it's a nice way of blanching out the ranks, Tony1-style. But the simple fact remains that this is the best these people could do with that Book, and it still amounts to creating a malevolent social environment. People do not flourish under God's word, they merely endure. And the effect of that burden is massive. Ask yourself why workers in Latin America make such low wages, and then follow the justification trail up to the top of American corporations and government institutions, and count how many Christians you cross along the way who are doling out the cheap excuses. Take a look around at how many Christians will promote social division in quest of personal satisfaction of faith. Suddenly, you realize there aren't really any Christians left; there's only those who claim there are, those who hate their brethren, and then the clear minority that are happy enough to worship God and do what they can for all people, regardless of faith--but these last, as has been noted at Sciforums, are either not Christians or are actual Christians who believe in other doctrines.

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The faith, then, has done one of two things. Either:

1) Inspired a person to wrongdoing through inadequate interpretation brought about by superstition and a lack of education, or,

2) Failed to convey its central purpose, and proven itself useless on what turns out to be a fairly large scale.

Thus, it is up to the faith to provide better education of the faith, or else to revamp itself and make itself of use--these are largely part of the same effort, in my opinion.

Ooh, a cute turn of phrase ... is it good enough to be merely like everyone else? I thought Christians were aspiring toward something greater.

I want Christianity to stop being a primary factor in the generation of the less fortunate. The more cynical side of me says that if Christianity ever does this, they will run out of desperate people to convert. On the flip-side, the faith might attract adherents, then, due to its efficacy in the world, as opposed to its opportunity to escape a misery that is larger than any one person.

More specifically, I accuse Christianity of creating problems, and of treating the symptom instead of the disease.

Perhaps the rest of you should learn from them. What harm could it do, other than to your self-aggrandized egos?

Again, we get into international economies, and what people in charge choose to make of their own personal values; Weber was largely right, and that's what is so difficult. Many of the reliefs of the modern day are made necessary by the sins of Christians past.

Which should I speak of, then, those who vote for social division and economic supremacy, or those who rape their children and say they believe in Jesus? Or what about those with nothing to do but try to distract humanity from any real progress? Oh, that's the most of them, in one form or the other. But I will remember your appeal for the next time you couch yourself in superstition about other cultures. I mean, to ask you, it would seem that the whole of crimes committed by religous people are the relatively few committed specifically for Satan. (And we're discounting here the Christian excuse, The Devil made me do it.)

Take your self-righteousness and stuff it. The House That Jesus Built is infected and sick right now, and its people would rather treat the symptoms and remain contagious in their illness than to clean house, treat the disease, and carry on in the healthful glow that is the Promise of their faith.

--Tiassa

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Re: Try again, Tony1, but have better material next time

*Originally posted by tiassa
How is it that the Devil's diversity crept in?*

Easy.
It is God vs. Satan.
Satan can't win, so he goes after people.
After all, he got you, didn't he?

*So far we see 1) They aren't Christians.*
Those would be people who deny Jesus.

*2) They are Christians but they've been taught by Buddhists.*
They would be buddhists, believing that life is permeated with suffering caused by desire, that suffering ceases when desire ceases, and that enlightenment is obtained through right conduct, etc., but using Christian-sounding terminology.

*3) They are Christians but they believe Hindus.*
They would be Hindus.
For example, church-attenders who perform yoga are Hindus.
If you do Christianity, you are Christian, but if you do Hinduism, then you are Hindu, regardless of what you say.

*4) They are Christians but they don't tend to their faith.*
Those would simply be laboring under some serious deception.

But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
(James 1:22, KJV).


*what is an actual Christian?*
One who confesses that Jesus is Lord and believes in his heart that Jesus was raised from the dead.
One who believes that Jesus was an actual flesh and blood person.
One who is a doer of the word and not a hearer only.

*your statements are exactly what indicates that such diversity is not acceptable to you.*
The diversity is acceptable, just do not think I wish to become a Hindu, or a Catholic, or Buddhist, etc.

*There are many Christians who would think you're nuts,*
Oh well.
I know people who attempt to combine Hinduism with Christianity, as an example, and it just doesn't fly.

*I might wonder how you know the character of Satan so well*
Well, wonder no more.
I get a lot of insight from your own posts.

*Christians note the recent social chaos whenever complaining that they can't force kids to pray Christian prayers in schools.*
You have completely lost your mind.
The laws force kids NOT to pray, and still you complain.

*Then why did you say it was, silly?*
I don't think I'd say that it was superstition to believe in your goddess.
After all, you say you've seen her, and I'll take your word for it.
I will go as far as to say it is STUPID to believe in your goddess.

*I'm sorry, but I just don't hear witches complaining about books in school libraries; I don't even hear it from Jews and Muslims; I don't hear it from Buddhists, Hindus, atheists, Theosophists, or Yzedic Devil Worshippers.*

I propose that you are deaf.

*Hello?*

Yup, we're still here even though you can't hear us.

*It was during my lifetime that the last people were prosecuted for witchcraft and sorcery in the US. British anti-sorcery laws remained in place until the second half of the 20th century, as well.*

Things have improved dramatically since then.
Crime rates soared to never-before-seen heights shortly after those laws were repealed.
From the tenor of your posts, it seems that you favor high crime rates.

*Originally posted by Deadwood
I often wonder what you really want when I give examples of how Christianity helps those less fortunate then ourselves helping them to survive because they've been dealt worser cards then ourselves. I am beginning to think that you really don't care about these people.*

You are just beginning to think that?
tiassa just plain, flat-out does not care.

What throws him off constantly is his inability to distinguish between Christianity and Catholicism, because of his major gripe with Catholicism, having attended a Catholic school.

Of course, I can't fault him for that, since most people exposed to Catholicism have problems with it.

*Originally posted by tiassa
The question at hand is how to reduce the number of hungry people, but the charity of feeding a hungry soul is so much more appealing and visible, isn't it?*

Well, duh.
The way to reduce the number of hungry people is to feed hungry people.
As soon as you feed a hungry person, he isn't hungry anymore.
Of course, that is just too obvious.

*Heck, a potential cancer treatment was made illegal in this country for a number of years because one of its components can be used in a drug cocktail to cause a miscarriage.*

You are almost completely insane.
The drug caused horrendous birth defects.

*I can guarantee you that, in gross numbers, more crimes have been committed against children, more cruelties visited on animals, and more profitable sex acts performed by people claiming to believe in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior than those who are Satanists.*

Of course, Satan is a liar.
So in the spirit of that, you would actually say that.
Whether it is true or not, barely remains open to question.
Support for Satan is support for lying, so any such support will be in the form of a lie.

Even though you cleverly inserted "claiming to believe" in your statement, the truth is that Satanists "claim" to believe in Jesus Christ, also, as it suits them.
Thus Satanists are in both groups.

 

--
“For example, church-attenders who perform yoga are Hindus.”
--

I don’t think so. To be a hindu means to subscribe to a certain class of doctrines. Yoga is simply stretching exercises. Although there may traditionally be religious associations with it, to participate does not involve conversion. (Similar sorts of instances would be martial arts, christmas, halloween and clapping your hands.)

--
“If you do Christianity, you are Christian, but if you do Hinduism, then you are Hindu, regardless of what you say.”
--

Although this is strictly speaking a tautology, in light of your last comment I’m inclined to read it as,
“If tony1 thinks you are a Hindu, you are, regardless of what you say.” Remember, the criterion by which a Hindu or a Christian is defined does not involve your opinion.

--
“One who is a doer of the word and not a hearer only.”
--

‘Let you who is without sin cast the first stone.’

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“*I might wonder how you know the character of Satan so well*
Well, wonder no more.
I get a lot of insight from your own posts.”

Hm.. You know, I think this is a kind of compliment.

Regards,
Synaesthesia

 

*Originally posted by synaesthesia
To be a hindu means to subscribe to a certain class of doctrines. Yoga is simply stretching exercises. Although there may traditionally be religious associations with it, to participate does not involve conversion.*
If that were true then the Hindu missionaries who are very serious about pushing yoga are all completely off-base, and you're the only one who is correct.
The Hindus don't care if you're being religious or not; all they care about is that you do yoga, because they know that is Hinduism.

*“If tony1 thinks you are a Hindu, you are, regardless of what you say.” Remember, the criterion by which a Hindu or a Christian is defined does not involve your opinion.*
While your last statement is right on the money, your first isn't.
If the Hindus think you are a Hindu then you are a Hindu.
The way they decide whether you are Hindu is whether you do Hindu things.
Ask any TM instructor or Hindu missionary and they will tell you that they don't care if you say you are Christian as long as you do Hindu things.

*“*I might wonder how you know the character of Satan so well*
Well, wonder no more.
I get a lot of insight from your own posts.”

Hm.. You know, I think this is a kind of compliment.*

I'm glad you think it's a compliment.
I was going to apologize since I was actually referring to tiassa's posts rather than yours.
But if you're taking it as a compliment, I'll leave it at that.

 

---
"If that were true then the Hindu missionaries who are very serious about pushing yoga are all completely off-base, and you're the only one who is correct.
The Hindus don't care if you're being religious or not; all they care about is that you do yoga, because they know that is Hinduism.
...
Ask any TM instructor or Hindu missionary and they will tell you that they don't care if you say you are Christian as long as you do Hindu things."
---

You're quite right in thinking that yoga has been associated with Hinduism. Indeed, in some contexts, it is used as an integral part of their belief system. (as you mentioned Hindu missionaries can be involved in yoga.) Your assumption that people who enjoy yoga actually believe or are interested in Hinduism is ungrounded. Most people involved with yoga here in the west, do it for health rather than religious purposes. To be involved with yoga doesn't anymore mean that you are hindu than using your local cult's dry cleaning store make you a starship candidate. Yes, it may be the case that dry cleaning is a sacrament to the cult but there are Christian people who simply want to get those dang stains out of their sunday cloths.

---
"I was going to apologize since I was actually referring to tiassa's posts rather than yours."
---

Oh, yes I know. It's just that if Satan's character is discernable through Tissa, she must be rather evil and important in the supernatural battle for the souls of men. That's what I meant by "a kind of compliment".

 

*Originally posted by synaesthesia
You're quite right in thinking that yoga has been associated with Hinduism.*
Shit is "associated" with feces, too.

*Indeed, in some contexts, it is used as an integral part of their belief system. (as you mentioned Hindu missionaries can be involved in yoga.)*
In "some" contexts?
"Part" of their belief system?
"can be involved?"

You appear to be unclear on the connection between Hindus and yoga.

The Hindu is the person and yoga is what the person does.

*Your assumption that people who enjoy yoga actually believe or are interested in Hinduism is ungrounded.*

Since I stated the opposite, I'm fairly sure that I'm not "assuming" that.

*Most people involved with yoga here in the west, do it for health rather than religious purposes. *

Hence the success of Hindu missionaries.
People in the west are too stupid to understand that yoga is Hinduism.
People in the east know it is.

* To be involved with yoga doesn't anymore mean that you are hindu than using your local cult's dry cleaning store make you a starship candidate.*

Cute, but you're just a sucker for the yogis.
As I said, they don't care what you believe; they want you to do yoga.
If you believe that yoga is for your health, they DON'T CARE.
As long as you do yoga, you are the sucker.

It's like going to Las Vegas.
The casino owners don't care if you're there for your health or for your religion, as long as you play.
They don't even care whether you win or lose, as long as you play.
Time will take care of the rest.


*It's just that if Satan's character is discernable through Tissa, she must be rather evil and important in the supernatural battle for the souls of men.*

Satan is a "she?"

 

---
"*Originally posted by synaesthesia
You're quite right in thinking that yoga has been associated with Hinduism.*
Shit is "associated" with feces, too."
---

You'd think yoga practice involved burning crosses on someone's lawn! I don't quite see why your view of stretching exercises is so tainted with acrimony. Don't you occasionally stretch in the morning with a nice refreshing yawn?


---
"As I said, they don't care what you believe; they want you to do yoga.
If you believe that yoga is for your health, they DON'T CARE.
As long as you do yoga, you are the sucker.
It's like going to Las Vegas. The casino owners don't care if you're there for your health.."
---

I'll stop the quote there. Let's just step back a moment and remember what you are trying to argue. If you do yoga, you are a Hindu. Hmm, what have you said regarding that? Well, you’ve said "if you do hindu things you are a hindu" and you've stated specifically that one such hindu thing is yoga. Well that is a valid argument, the conclusion follows from the premises, which is an improvement.

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There are two main elements of your argument that I'd like to address. I am guessing that the ambiguity around what constitutes a Hindu forms a major portion of your misconception. The fact is, by definition a hindu is an adherent of Hinduism. Hinduism is characterized primarily by a belief in reincarnation, that a supreme being of many forms and natures exist and by the view that opposing theories are aspects of one eternal truth. If you lack such beliefs you cannot qualify as a Hindu, even if you do otherwise "Hindu things".

In a similar vein, engaging in activites also practiced by adherents of a religion doesn't make everyone who does them a member. Buddhist monks developed martial arts which they practiced as an integral aspect of their religious system. I practice these same martial arts and I, much like those who practice yoga, am very well aware of the religious and military roots of the practice. Does all of this mean that I am a Buddhist? Of course not, I don't subscribe to the belief system. (By the way, the instructors at my martial arts school DO care about the health of their students.) Does the fact that does cultish things by going to our dry cleaners make them an adherent of that UFO cult? Well, go ahead, accept the logical consequences of your assertion, the fact that I give presents at Christmas makes me a Christian.


Yoga is done for health purposes. It doesn’t matter what any given instructor thinks (Although it’s unduly cynical and unrealistic to think that none of them care about the whole point that people do yoga for, they won’t get any clients that way.), the fact is that it is good for you. The reason people are willing to exchange their money for goods (a yoga do-it-yourself video) or services (instruction at a gym) is because they value the aforementioned goods and services more than the possession of the capital. Everyone profits.

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--
“Hence the success of Hindu missionaries.
People in the west are too stupid to understand that yoga is Hinduism.
People in the east know it is.”
--

a)Tony1 lives in the west.
b)People in the west are too stupid to understand that yoga is Hinduism.
c)Tony1 is a person.

d)Tony1 is too stupid to understand that yoga is Hinduism.

This is, of course, absurd. You are not too stupid to see that yoga is Hinduism. As a matter of fact, it isn’t but that doesn’t mean you lack the intelligence to perceive such a fact, if it was indeed the case.

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But the true absurdity of your statement lies in your assertion that the success of Hindu missionaries is due to the fact that they get people to be hindus without anyone having any idea that they had converted. A person who is a a true, god-fearing, bible abiding, orthodox christian can, whilst being totally and utterly unaltered in every other way, become a hindu by doing yoga, a Buddhist by practicing Shaolin and a cult member by taking care of their clothing.

But hey, my arguments are wrong because I’m just a sucker for the yogis... Or is that a false premise compounded with the genetic fallacy?

Regards,
Synaesthesia
"Ah! Don't say you agree with me. When people agree with me I always feel that I must be wrong." --Oscar Wilde
(removed duplicate signature)

 

*Originally posted by synaesthesia
I don't quite see why your view of stretching exercises is so tainted with acrimony. Don't you occasionally stretch in the morning with a nice refreshing yawn?*

If yoga is just stretching, then why are you putting so much effort into this discussion?
Besides, if that is all it consisted of, then those Hindu missionaries put a LOT of effort into convincing people to stretch and yawn.

*The fact is, by definition a hindu is an adherent of Hinduism. Hinduism is characterized primarily by a belief in reincarnation, that a supreme being of many forms and natures exist and by the view that opposing theories are aspects of one eternal truth. If you lack such beliefs you cannot qualify as a Hindu, even if you do otherwise "Hindu things".*

Adherents are recognized by what they do.

*In a similar vein, engaging in activites also practiced by adherents of a religion doesn't make everyone who does them a member.*

This shows a fundamental lack of understanding of religion.

*I practice these same martial arts and I, much like those who practice yoga, am very well aware of the religious and military roots of the practice. Does all of this mean that I am a Buddhist?*

Of course, it does.
It makes you a confused Buddhist who performs the actions while at the same time questioning the validity of Buddhist belief.

*(By the way, the instructors at my martial arts school DO care about the health of their students.)*
Of course they do; sick students don't pay.

*Well, go ahead, accept the logical consequences of your assertion, the fact that I give presents at Christmas makes me a Christian.*

Based on previous arguments presented on this forum, that would make you pagan/Catholic.

*It doesn’t matter what any given instructor thinks*

That is my point, of course.

* (Although it’s unduly cynical and unrealistic to think that none of them care about the whole point that people do yoga for, they won’t get any clients that way.), the fact is that it is good for you. ...
Everyone profits.*

Well, not quite everybody.
The practitioner gives up his/her eternal life.


*a)Tony1 lives in the west.
b)People in the west are too stupid to understand that yoga is Hinduism.
c)Tony1 is a person.

d)Tony1 is too stupid to understand that yoga is Hinduism. *

Your grasp of logic leaves something to be desired.
I didn't say, "All" people in the west.

*This is, of course, absurd. You are not too stupid to see that yoga is Hinduism.*

That is correct.
Again, that is my point.

*But the true absurdity of your statement lies in your assertion that the success of Hindu missionaries is due to the fact that they get people to be hindus without anyone having any idea that they had converted.*

That is Hinduism at its "finest."
They are much cleverer than you are.

*A person who is a a true, god-fearing, bible abiding, orthodox christian can, whilst being totally and utterly unaltered in every other way, become a hindu by doing yoga, a Buddhist by practicing Shaolin.*

If they were abiding by the Bible, they wouldn't be doing things such as that, and they wouldn't be Christians, regardless of how many church pews they leave buttprints on.

Therefore whosoever hears these sayings of mine, and does them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
And every one that hears these sayings of mine, and does them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
(Matthew 7:24-27, KJV).


*Ah! Don't say you agree with me. When people agree with me I always feel that I must be wrong." --Oscar Wilde*

I must be right.

 

Thought Police? Where?

Show me one law in the US that forces a child to not pray, and I'll take you by the hand and walk you down to the ACLU, and afterward, we can get some ice cream.

re: what is an actual Christian?

Specific enough.

Again, specific enough. And what I mean by this in both cases is contrasted by the glaring difficulty of your next condition:

Um ... yeah. The Catholic Inquisitors thought they were doing and not just hearing. In the modern day, the OCA thinks they're doing and not just hearing. Televangelism in general thinks it's doing and not just screwing the whole thing up while begging for money. I can cite "what's wrong with Christianity", and put up a theological work exemplifying the problem; regardless of the scope of its influence, you would deny that as "too Catholic"; so I might then follow up with a modern televangelist and an evil-plagued sermon, and you will deny that as "Satanic influence"; and then I might put up an old, Puritan sermon like, say, Edwards' Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God ... was that too Catholic or too old? Jack Chick? X number of voters in a given state? It seems as if we're still relying on your definitions, Tony1, so why don't you enlighten us on what a doer and not a hearer does?

That doesn't cover the range of your outlandish exploitation of the concept of the Devil. I'm touched, really, I am, but you have also admitted that you have no genuine ideas about the Satan you bandy about, but that's no surprise.

You should remember that I've also met your Christos. And your Satan.

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Why do you just continue to stick your foot in your mouth? Is it for our amusement? Then stop, because it's really quite sad. You remind me of that dude on "Jackass" who goes out to get his ass kicked all the time.

Demonstrate that: I'll even repeat the list for you--

* Wiccans
* Jews
* Muslims
* Buddhists
* Hindus
* atheists
* Theosophists
* Yzedic Devil worshippers

Your task in defense of the appearance of credibility is to produce a legitimate protest against a book in a library in which the protest is lodged amid any of the above-listed ideas, and documents itself as such.

And the crime rate has grown ever since Christians showed up on this continent. Your point?

What's really stupid about that is that a marijuana advocate can point out that crime and social violence has been rising since the prohibition of marijuana in 1937, but I believe that point was wasted on you before.

Why don't marijuana advocates point out the correllation of crime rate and the Marihuana Tax Stamp Act of 1937? Because it's just as stupid as the same argument made about the removal of prayer from public schools. Your present failed point is even more ridiculous.

Did you eat too much of the Brown Acid while at medical school?

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Hey, that's a children's joke: How many fish can a glutton eat on an empty stomach? One, then his stomach isn't empty anymore. You would think, Tony1 that if your illogic was logical, that we might run out of hungry mouths to feed. Your cheap answer demonstrates once again that you are in severe need of greater reading comprehension. Or is it Attention Deficit Disorder? There are some fine, speedy drugs which can take care of that for you ... and you can even get them from your doctor. Oh, wait ... then you'd be taking communion to the religion of medical science.

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And why would you trust the word of all these medical religionists?

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And furthermore, Tony1 ... cancer/death/cancer/life? Hello?

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Frankly, Tony1, I think a woman's concentration would be on living through the cancer ... should we let them die of ovarian cancer since a hysterectomy stops them from reproducing?

Is that a tongue-twister, or do I recognize really old Catholic theology there?

And thus Christians are in both groups too. Go figure!

Again, Tony1, you are the sterling image of the Christian intellect.

--Tiassa

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GOD, is LOVE, not Evil!

Tiassa and all others, the Lord our GOD is not evil nor is He weak in any since! He is the Lord of all Creation and is the Mightiest Being in and beyond all existence ! He is who He have said He is, and that the Bible is His very word to Man! Beware the great deception that is falling on this land, that there "be no truths, moral-absolutes, and no GOD!!"

Man was and is [though fallen] created in the image of his Creator of all life and matter, Almighty All-knowing, All-wise, All loving , and caring GOD above all creation! If this was not so, we would not even exist! To you who do not, are say, refuse to believe, then mankind is greatly devalued, and there will soon come a day where life is so cheapened that there would be slavery, anarchy, dictatorships will dominate the Earth, even cannibalism legalized, that is not impossible, all Hell can and will break lose upon this Earth just because that some people in power had decided that we, the humanrace was 'not' made in the image of GOD our loving Creator! That to do as we please, is to do that which is Evil! Evil in the sight of GOD, and man that has good moral since! The Bible does say that we were created in His image for a good purpose and reason, that we could have an personal relationship with GOD through JESUS Christ the Son of GOD who is my 'advocate' in Heaven! Yes I even I could go before the Throne of Grace through JESUS my Lord and saviour, and though I and countless others could never deserve it, JESUS had paid the toll in full at Calvary's Cross!

The only ones here that are truly ignorant are those that reject the Word of GOD (GOD of Abraham), and tries so hard on this Forum to make a mockery of it! This is the age of Grace and many shall sin and keep on sinning till there time comes, then the Judgment of GOD ye may have to face all alone! Our GOD is GOD, and JESUS our Saviour there one in the same , but separate person's yet one!

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Be not wise in your own eyes! Man's views are too short sighted to come to any conclusions apart from that 'wisdom that is above all man's, and angles, and devils! ...UFO's and that sort!

GOD is good, and He loves you! Willing that none should perish, but to come to His Son JESUS for remission of sins!

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A couple of questions

Tiassa

If someone believed in making war and yet went under a title of Pacifist are they still are Pacifist.

If Hitler said he was a pacifist, would that mean he was a pacifist.

I have asked you about Satanists before who don't follow "do what ever you want as long as you don't hurt anyone." You said they are still Satanist.

So therefore, I say to you, call the inquistitors what you want, but are they actually following Christian ideals?
Were the Satanists following Satanist ideals who weren't doing "whatever you want as long as you don't hurt anyone"?

tiassa

What is cheap about feeding people who are hungry. No one likes being hungry so please stop knocking it and calling it cheap.