Prove this to me and I will worship you as a God.....

You lost me with that question.
I was saying that in real life people accept (whether they know it or not) that nothing can be proven beyond all doubt when you bring the concept of questioning existence itself into play.
However, in challenges such as these (without the caveat of reasonable faith and doubt as supporting evidence) the request is to prove beyond any possible doubt with no agreed upon concessions, which, of course, is impossible.

 

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And I think that is basically what Sargentlard was getting at in the second post on this thread.

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Yep.
Pretty much.

Pretty bright guy, that sarge.

 

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'Splain, please.

 

Originally Posted by wesmorris
An interesting note is that if you don't recognize your concessions, they aren't concessions, but proven knowledge, regardless of the logic of the matter, the limiting factor is the comprehension of the subject.

Like a christian's faith in jesus. You know the deal as well as I, so that's all good for us, but if a person (the subject, pardon if I was vague) can't understand the deal, then it's not a deal at all to them. They believe whatever the shit they can believe... whatever they've learned to believe at any given moment. If you are inable to know the deal because you're already got a different one, or the real deal just won't fit in your head, or hell maybe it's true for prety much anyone... your comprehension of your environment at any moment is always the limit of your knowledge of the isness of your environment. So if you don't get the whole tentative nature of knowledge, no amount of information will change your pre-existing rejection of the potential knowledge injection. It is rejected like an incompatable organ.

I know I should have been able to say that more succinctly. Meh.

 

OK. I think I get you.
a.) But does that make the Christian's faith in Jesus proven knowledge, thereby insisting that everyone creates their own reality?
b.) Or does it simply state that people will believe what they will, regardless of reality, as a result of ignorance and lack of insight?

If you say that (a.) everyone creates their own reality, then you just conceeded that those Christians who believe that Jesus=God is a FACT are correct, and in effect nullified everything you just said, and proved that, in at least one reality, daydream_believer is not God, and I just got myself a personal slave and worshipper.

If you say that (b.) people will believe what they will regardless of truth, due to ignorance and lack of insight:
a.) How do you know you are not the ignorant one? And since you may be, then you, in effect, just nullified everything you just said because you conceeded that you may not know jack-shit, including the fact that you don't know jack-shit, so option (a.) could very well be true.
b.) Who defines truth and who judges reality? If you can't answer that key question, then, of course, you are back to option (a.) again, in that everyone creates their own reality and no one can judge them and tell them they are wrong because everyone is the sole judge of their own reality.

So, no matter what course you choose, you are the sole judge of your reality and what you say is fact simply IS.

I say that daydream_believer is NOT God.
daydream_believer, I will be expecting 10% of your paycheck in the mail, and, of course, you have to evangelize and get me a whole flock to pay me 10% and be my slaves.
Also, on the 1st, 9th, 14th and 23rd of each month, I will be expecting a burnt offering of an infidel that does not believe in me (150 of them every February the 29th).
Eventually everyone will either believe that I am God, thereby fulfilling my prophecy, or I will have accomplished my goal of ridding this world of the human disease.
*snickers and wrings his hands like a maniacal evil villain*

 

Stand in line one_raven.

 

It makes it proven knowledge to them yeah. The validity of it, or applicablity to the isness of their environment is utterly disconnected from them because of the arrangement/limit of their comprehension. Fail to ask the right questions and you can live in your own little fantasy world until your hand is forced. Given that most people don't even know epistemology is a word, nor do they spend much time or question the foundation of knowledge, they simply cannot get the reason that knowledge is tentative... so to them it simply isn't real. Again, unless their hand is forced (which is damned near impossible especially given that what like 90% of the planet is with them), they can simply pretend your reasoning is wrong or they truly can't understand it (and maybe are not at all motivated to do so). Do they create their own reality? Well, everyone does in the sense that "this is what I think reality is". Again, that is not necessarily attached to the isness of their environment or anything of cognitive substance at all. in essence, all personal reality is fantasy... but if you don't know that, you can't start at a place (like reason) which attempts to agree on some common ground.

Yeah mostly B.

They create their own virtual reality.

Can't. Only have levels of confidence based on evidence.

Such is true, but I've made the concession that it is reasonable to be reasonable in an attempt to establish a building block for myself and a foundation for mutual comprehension (since to me it is reasonable to assume you exist, even though you might not - it is of no difference to me as you seem to exist and I can find no evidence to the contrary so effectually you do exist, regardless of the isness of anything).

Sure.

We have to agree to try to be reasonable and hash it out from there. Ultimately, I do this for myself.. but I keep it as tentative. Things for which I've see no exception recieve less attention in practical application. Gravity is pretty reliable as far as I can tell. Most of that whole phsyics thing seems pretty worth paying attention too. Really, the ultimate judge of reality is "i think therefore I am". It's up to you to decide how to continue to be. Generally, it behooves us to give a little respect to physics or we tend to get dead pretty quick.

You only have your impression of reality to go on. I tentatively judge my environment and use that data to survive and endeavor to increase my capability for comprehending my environment, even though it might all be bullshit. It seems to me that there does exist an environment external to myself, and thusly it seems that there is a maximum and minimum correlation of one's personal reality and the isness of the environment.

I have faith in reason, so I tentatively judge the isness of reality with full knowledge that it could all be incorrect.

I agree.

Good luck with all that! I think your hand will be forced.

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Of course you have every right to pretend that is isn't even if it is. That might cause an impass in our respective perceptions though eh?

 

hows this;
the matter/energy (the stuff the universe is made of) cannot be destroyed,only changed,so it obviously was never created,it always existed in some form/shape!

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------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jesus loves you!everyone else thinks you're an asshole

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one_raven....u wish! as if that is proof. I could have just imagined your reply on the screen, and imagined a birth certificate and imagined a world that says it's older than me, even though it isn't. I put this post up here because i think it's kinda funny that anyone can claim that they created the universe and no one can disprove it, or even proove they trhemselves exist to do valid disproving. i didn't mean to upset anyone or get there hopes up. i was just using an interesting way of pointing out a fact i think is rather funny and generate some discussion on the implications of it in our everyday lives. Now i better stop writing because tonight i am the bitch from hell and i'm blaming pms, but i am really a super bitch tonight.

 

But if your PMS is just imaginary...

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But seriously, thanks, it was indeed an entertaining topic.

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Wesmorris and one_raven had some interesting spin on the subject. An enjoyable read.

 

hahahaha! Wes, I love you, man! You explain my theories better than I do!

I don't feel a need to write my book any more - you write it! I'll just sit here enjoying these fun threads.

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I'm reading all your stuff, saying "he needs to add "truth for them" for it to make sense...", and then in the post above you put "proven knowledge to them"

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hahahaha! great stuff, great stuff.

God, I sound like a lunitic, don't I?
Wes, I'd love to try and clarify this theory down more - can we use the "your function" thread you started to attempt writing all this down in paragraph form?

 

Alright, if you created the universe than must know it pretty well. All i have to do is ask a question about the configuration of the universe that you cant answer correctly.

Lets start with and easy one. Describe my back yard.

 

but what if he created the universe purposely entering randomness into it such that even he wouldn't know everything about it? (sorry Neutrino, I'm an attention hog.

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)

 

Bugger. You know you could have at least given it a chance. He might not have thought of that and id have a religion devoted to me now.

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Or... You don't have a back yard, you just think you do. If you can't prove you exist, you certainly can't prove you have a back yard.

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touche. But if the universe with Nutrino's backyard doesn't exist, then daydream couldn't have created it.

 

Proof I exist: I do.
Proof you're not God: Strike me down now you crazy fool! Still standing, oh? mercy you say? Well then, the sheer proof is this: you're not.

 

Esstazq - assuming that a creator of the world would be omnipotent in that world, you may have gotten it. If Daydream can't prove to you that he *is* God, then he can't be God...