Votorx, >>Hey if I made an exact clone of myself and put him on Asia while I was in the U.S, technically wouldn't I be in 2 places at once? No, dang it: What about the countinuty and preservation of identity? That clone would have your identity, but be in a different geographical position. The clone wouldn't know it is a clone. It would think it is you. You would think you are the clone. Neither of you could know about eachother. I wonder what would happen if you two would meet though??
Actually this is where the problem lies! With the advent of quantum theory, it seems "logical" contradictions CAN exist! Ever hear of Schrodingers Cat? Apparently u can be alive and dead at the same time Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Every event in the universe has a probability of occuring and if u believe in the many worlds theory, everything HAS and HASN'T happened!!!
You know what? I think people make up these super fancy theories just to keep their big brains busy -- or else they would be too able to see the misery of this world, the misery they helped creating with those huge brains.
Ahh but what do you call me who comes up with these not so super and fancy but theories never less to keep MY big brain busy, meanwhile I still recognize the misery of this world Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Me, I would probably put myself into a mental hospital if I didn't know about the clone or heard that its possible to actually clone humans Why would I think I'm the clone?
I agree that this is where the problem lies. Logical contradictions can exist for sure, but not physically. If you have an example to counter that, please provide a link to it or something. I understand Quantum Tunneling and Electron Instantaneous change stuff (I can't remember what that's called) but neither are necessarily physical logical contradictions as far as I know. Both phenomenon have explanations that I've heard that counter the notion of contradiction. I don't remember the one for quantum tunelling, and the one about the electron thing is about information, so doesn't really count towards a physical contradiction. That's a strong conclusion to draw from that experiment for the reason that it's wholly dependent on the observer. In other words, perhaps to you I can be alive and dead at the same time, but I'd maintain that to the cat (or me if I were in the box), whether or not I'm dead is not at issue. Hehe, you don't know the probability of "every event in the universe occuring" so your statement is false. Your belief in a theory doesn't mean that it's pertinent.
Which super fancy theories? What about seeing the joy in this world? Why misery? What? What does that even mean? The super fancy theories lead to misery? Are you just depressed or something?
How can the clone know it is a clone? If a clone is your perfect duplicate, then it thinks it is you.
Thanks for the concern. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! I was pissed about Schrodinger actually thinking of killing that cat! I hope he didn't try it out. And yes, I am a bit depressed, sorry to say so. It'll get better.
Oh, and yes, I'm not all that wrong about the super fancy theories. Think of the experiments they do on animals -- growing tumors and such. Think of nuclear bombs they threw down in the Bikini area. Those scientists were so busy with their super fancy theories, that they just forgot to think of the consequences of what they were doing. In the American deserts, where they did experimetns, there is still radioactive green sand, melted into clots from the explosion.
Yes, that's the thing! If the observed time is T, and in this time, I moved from S1 to S2, then I was at TWO places in the SAME time. But if you say that, they you are also saying that it takes NO time to get from S1 to S2. So far, it does take time to get from S1 or S2. Or, if you do wish to be at S1 and S2 at the same time, then your identity is NOT the same; meaning that some other, *variant* part/version of you (which you know nothing of!) is in S2, while you are in S1. This is why, when arguing about things, we should render them proper coordinates of time and space. "Logical contradictions can exist for sure, but not physically": they exist in our minds and due to our misunderstanding/misconception.
No. It is illogical u must agree, that particles can come out of empty space. So is the reality of 'negative energy'! Both of these are REAL and PHYSICAL things which have to be considered illogical. What statement is false? The illogical contradiction is real and physical in that it happens. It is just that we're using the wrong word for it. Perhaps there IS NO such thing as "illogical"!!!
If I woke up one day not remembering where I was and I came out of a place where I know clones are produced, then I know there's something wrong. Meanwhile, I am aware of my present state before I get cloned, therefore I know I am the original since it wouldn't just be memories, I am actually experiance my past rather than remembering it. P.S - I asked why I would think I was a clone, not why the clone would think they were me...
I would say that if the observation shows that particles can come from empty space, then that it is logical to believe it is so. Perhaps it's illogical if you don't know the context in which space yields particles. Perhaps particles from empty space is a bullshit explanation of a more involved phenomenon that can be currently understood. I don't know anything about that except that "negative" is generally a simple reference utility and doesn't necessarily imply any contradiction that I'm aware of. Perhaps you can be more clear. Perhaps you can't really demonstrate for sure that there is a physical contradiction. You have failed to make that case. I'm not saying you can't, you simply haven't done so. I'd guess it would be hard to circumvent the whole "perhaps we just don't understand the system clearly" argument though. Wow me damnit. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Votorx, >>I asked why I would think I was a clone, not why the clone would think they were me How would you know which is the clone and which is you, if you two would be the SAME? How would the clone know that it is a clone? I just watched a bit of "The Sixth Day" with Arnie, and I had the luck to see that very part when he finds out he's been cloned. The thing is that both the clone and the original think that they are what technically is the original! Which is the original and which is the clone is something that *only the maker* of the clone, an outside observer can know -- while the clone and you can't know it. If they cloned you, they'd take your mind-print right before they'd clone you, so the clone would wake up to life with the exact same mind-print you had before they'd cloned you. Unless of course, it would be specified otherwise. Like if they'd take your mind-print a while earlier. But then that thing wouldn't be a perfect clone. Anyhow, I think that there is a very simple and realistic solution to your problem: Right now, we cannot make instant adult clones. We don't have the knowledge and the technology to do it. Therefore we also don't know what it would be like if there would be clones of that kind, we can only make intelligent guesses. It's like Jules Verne and the old sci-fi crew: they too made intelligent guesses about what would be like if ... . As later, science has made real what they were dreaming of, the actual thing has characteristics they didn't know and didn't predict rightly. John, >>The illogical contradiction is real and physical in that it happens. It is just that we're using the wrong word for it. Perhaps there IS NO such thing as "illogical"!!! Are you attempting to actually make claims about das Ding an sich? Of course there is no such thing as "illogical" per se. To us, everything is just as what it appears to us. We cannot make claims about das Ding an sich. Das Ding an sich is whatever it is, and we make claims about it as *we* see fit. Then, these claims can be illogical, but this is due to our specific observation, not because of das Ding an sich.
There are 2 things that I Believe in. It's Past Day Reference (PDR) and Present Day Awareness (PDA). At this moment I am aware of my present day situations/events and actions. My clone would only have a Past Day Reference meaning he will only be dependant on memories and ideas that I originally have. He will think that he witness present day awareness during the past but in reality I know that Im the only one who witness PDA. Since, at this moment there is no clone, it know that I am the original. Of course if there was a clone made at birth, then I have no way of knowing if im the clone or not.
Why is it logical to believe so? It wouldn't have been a century ago! How about a more concrete example. It is often said that a triangle whose angles do not add up to 180<sup>o</sup> is illogical. It was impossible for people to realise that space itself could be curved and that even in this universe, very few triangles will add up to exactly 180<sup>o</sup>!!! Rosa caught on to the most important bit of my last post which was the fact that the word logical (or the idea of 'logic') may not be as concrete as we once thought Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
