Islam & Science

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by 7x7, Aug 7, 2004.

  1. 7x7 nation of moral Registered Senior Member

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    Many people believe that Quran was written by Mohammed (the prophet), i'm here to explain to people that an illiterate like Muhammad could not.

    i will use few/many examples...all are welcome to praticipate and say thier opnions

     
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  3. 7x7 nation of moral Registered Senior Member

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    this thread is also for those who don't believe in GOD.
     
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  5. 7x7 nation of moral Registered Senior Member

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    2- dead sea
    Q: The lowest district\land in the world?
    A: answer can be found here (the dead sea)
    answer can be found here..
    http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/science/11/10/dead.sea/

     
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  7. 786 Searching for Truth Valued Senior Member

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    He creates you stage by stage in your mothers' wombs in a threefold darkness. That is God, your Lord. Sovereignty is His. There is no god but Him. So what has made you deviate?"
    (The Qur'an, 39:6)

    Indeed this has been proven by modern embryology. That there are three stages. And they are.

    - Pre-embryonic stage
    In this first phase, the zygote grows by division, and when it becomes a cell cluster, it buries itself in the wall of the uterus. While they continue growing, the cells organise themselves in three layers.

    - Embryonic Stage
    The second phase lasts for five and a half weeks, during which the baby is called an "embryo". In this stage, the basic organs and systems of the body start to appear from the cell layers.

    - Fetal stage
    From this stage on, the embryo is called a "foetus". This phase begins at the eighth week of gestation and lasts until the moment of birth. The distinctive characteristic of this stage is that the foetus looks just like a human being, with its face, hands and feet. Although it is only 3 cm. long initially, all of its organs have become apparent. This phase lasts for about 30 weeks, and development continues until the week of delivery.
     
  8. mohammed Registered Member

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    hi 7x7
    im mohammed and i was impressed by ur thread about islam and science
    im a muslim and if i was to make this thread i couldnt have done it better than u did.
     
  9. 7x7 nation of moral Registered Senior Member

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    mohammed, i have many more

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    3- The 40 & 42 nights

    I made my own search and got the following:

     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2004
  10. Ebony Registered Senior Member

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    this is very interesting
     
  11. 7x7 nation of moral Registered Senior Member

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    welcome, any opinions are welcome

    I have many more.... keep in touch
     
  12. 7x7 nation of moral Registered Senior Member

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  13. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    Firstly, flesh doesn’t grow around bones as obviously bones come AFTER flesh.

    The problem with such analogies is that the writings quoted from the Qur’an (or any other superstitous-book) are so vague as to be interpreted to mean absolutly anything. If there really were some sort of divine-inspiration concerning biology - I’m sure it would have included something concerning DNA - maybe that a twisted molecule is used to store information. But the Qur'an doens't even mention atoms (something the Greek were keen on 1000's of years prior).

    Instead we have some mumble jumble that we can obviously conclude is useless as it was never used to contribute anything whatsoever to the study of developmental biology (or curative medicine for that matter). You're taking information you have NOW and ad hoc applying it to vague verses in an ancient text.

    By that sort of rational we could also conclude Greek deities were communicating information to the Greeks and therefore this information somehow validates these deities existence:

    By the Greek poet Pindar in the 5th century BC.

    This poem clearly illustrates that the Greeks knew the sun was a star just like all other stars in the universe and therefore the worship of Greek Gods is valid. (Not to mention the notion of "atoms" was an ancient Greek idea).

    Anyway, we can make the point quickly, I see you have a section on the creation of the Universe. As physists are still at odds as to how it occurred. Why don’t you tell us right now, according to the Qur’an, how was the universe created? In a Big Bang? Re occurring? In one place or in many? Is there one or are there multiple?

    I hope my comments are not offending, it’s just the there is nothing scientific nor useful in the phrase: “Then He turned to the heaven when it was smoke” whatsoever. There just isn't any meaning.
     
  14. 7x7 nation of moral Registered Senior Member

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    First I would like to welcome you, I hope we can have good argument. I'm not offended and you have the right to ask.

    I can't post long text based from other resoucrs beacuse it is aginst the rules of forum.





    Read it again:

    says in the Qur'aan about the stages of the creation of man: Man we did create from a quintessence (of clay); Then we placed as (a drop of) sperm (nutfah) in a place firmly fixed; Then we made the sperm into a clot of congealed blood (alaqah); Then of that clot we made a (fetus) lump (mudghah); then we made out of that lump bones and clothed the bones with flesh; then we developed out of it another creature. (Qur'aan 23:12-14)

    First what is mudghah? Isn't it a flesh also? YES, it is.
    So we get:
    Flesh-Bones-Flesh covers bones (The cover here is muscles)

    This indicates that out of the chewed lump stage, bones and muscles form. This is in accordance with embryological development. First the bones form as cartilage models and then the muscles (flesh) develop around them from the somatic mesoderm


    Then it says:

    "Then We developed out of it another creature."

    No offend but you can't be better that Dr Keith Moore who approved that the Quran stages are accurate 100%

    You are totally wrong. Quran mentions the atom. You were confident by saying " Quran dose not even mention Atom" and using other confident sentences and I'm now confident that your information (if you have any) about Quran is wrong.



    I preferred to post it (the atom) at separate post, read my next post please.


    Honestly I don't see it a big deal. They had good scientists, the discovered that the earth isn't flat. They were among the best I the world. But before Quran came we had the lowest level of knowledge at all fields.

    We have big part for astronomy in Quran. I will bring some next.


    First of all, Quran isn't science book. It is religion book but also contains some scientific facts which been used by god, mainly, as proofs for disbelievers.

    I'm using these proofs, to prove that prophet Muhammd did not write the quran and the Quran is the words of Allah (God)

    The Quranic phrase simply says, our universe origin is clouds. Not very complicated. I have brought sources when I posted the thread before., you can read at the creation of universe thread also you can read next:

    Remember Quran is not a science book so not all scientific facts are in details.

    Again Quran is not a scientific book, but about the DNA, There is no mention to DNA (the word) in Quran, but there is very close phrase that could be used to refer to DNA and genes.

    Quran says that human are going to change\modify the creatures of god. (women:118)
    I don't have the english translation now.

    Honestly I saw that myself during a scientific show. I saw a rabbit that can flash light blue/green color (his skin) at dark. They said that the modified his genes with sea-animal. God did not create rabbit can flash, Human changed it.
    I could see that human are changing the of creatures god as god told in Quran.
     
  15. 7x7 nation of moral Registered Senior Member

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    5-The atom

    the phrase says that atom isn't not the smallest unit of matter.
     
  16. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    If the Qur’an says the Universe originated in clouds then it is saying something for which we have no evidence. There’s certainly a big difference b/w the origin of the universe and the origin of galaxies. As the prior preceded the later. So in reality, the Qur’an could say the Universe’s origin is a Baklava. As of now there is no way to know.

    The account of the different stages in embryology as described by the Qur'an, ar-Razi and al-Quff is identical to that taught by Galen, writing in around AD 150 in Pergamum (Bergama in modern Turkey). Galen taught that the embryo developed in four stages as detailed below.

    Here’s an English translation of the Qur'an: Sura 23:13-14

    The first stage, geniture, corresponds to [nutfah], the drop of semen; the second stage, a bloody vascularised foetus with unshaped brain, liver and heart ("when it has been filled with blood") corresponds to [alaqa], the blood clot; the third stage "has the form of flesh" and corresponds to [mugdah], the morsel of chewed flesh. The fourth and final stage, puer, was when all the organs were well formed, joints were freely moveable, and the foetus began to move. If there is still some doubt about the clear link being described here between the Galenic and the Qur'anic stages, it may be pointed out that it was early Muslim doctors, including Ibn-Qayyim, who first spotted the similarity. Basim Musallam, Director of the Centre of Middle Eastern Studies at the University of Cambridge concludes
    To me, at the very least, the writers of the Qur’an have simply copied the most famous of Greek physicians, Galen, into a verse. Galen was known through out the ME and certainly known at the time and place when the Qur’an was compiled and canonized.

    Regardless, the verse is so obscure as to mean anything. And there is nothing in the verse that Galen didn't also write. So there is nothing divine about it. If some deity wanted to demonstrates it’s authenticity then it could have simply stated something clearly such that only scientists would know - such as DNA.
     
  17. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    I have read this three times through and I do not see where it states that an atom is not the smallest unit of matter? Which says something about the obscurity I was referring to.

    If anything it seems to suggest (Who knows the unseen From Whom is not hidden The least little atom) that the atom is the smallest unit. At the very least we can conclude that anything smaller than the atom is not known to the Lord or the verse would have said that instead of using the word "Atom". By choosing the word “Atom” I must conclude that the author thought that Atom was the smallest – or doesn’t know anything smaller. As you said the atom is not the smallest unit of matter. Therefore, anything larger than the smallest could be used in this sentence. Lets word-substitute and see what it means: (Who knows the unseen From Whom is not hidden The least little Baklava. Now it seems to say anything smaller than a Baklava is unknown to God. As far as meaning is concerned Atom may as well be a Baklava.

    So why pick Atom over any other measure of space?

    It must have some special meaning?

    As the Lord picked the word Atom I must conclude that an Atom is as small as the lord is willing to confess to knowing something about.

    Lets extrapolate this out: We know that energy and mass are related. Energy can be represented by waves. Waves are indeed smaller than an atom – and in fact is how the central area (or lack there of) of the pi-orbital is explained in said atoms. As such, you and I are also represented by waves (albeit extremely small ones). We are waves. So God can not know about us (or anything made of matter).

    You see the problem with obscurity and making up something ad hoc?

    PS: It's ironic that the verse should end with "Perspicuous" as it is anything but plain to the understanding due to clarity and precision of presentation!!!
     
  18. 7x7 nation of moral Registered Senior Member

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    First, try to show some respect to other side during argument, even if you don't believe of what he is saying.
    If you don't I'm not willing to continue with you.
    This thread for smart people, who uses their mind and respect each other not making fun of the symbols that belong to them.

    Can you give us information of what are you saying?
    Where do you rate "heavens" in Universe category or Galaxy category?

    Don't you read what I write?

    Big Bang according to many scientists (search web site) is the origin of universe and it is based on clouds.


    Nebula- a cloud of dust and gas in space, from which new stars are created
    The first origin for material is the universe's creation itself: Soon after its birth, atoms were created in the universe, and it is from these that the first dust and gas clouds formed. This means that the gas and dust that make up this type of nebula were not created in a star, but are the original matter from the beginnings of the universe.


    Again, next time when you write something, try to give more information and sources of what are you saying.
    Not just throwing words around.

    The sentence is very clear, it says that god knows everything in heavens and earth even the atom and the smaller than the atom.

    continue the sentence, don't stop.
    The least little atom In the Heavens or on earth: Nor is there anything less Than that, or greater, BUT IS in the Record Perspicuous.

    It says that the atom or the smaller than the atom are recorded, you can not stop at the middle of sentence.


    Again you make fun of yourself.
    First saying that atom dose not exist in Quran and then saying that the phrase means that the atom is smallest unit of matter.
     
  19. 7x7 nation of moral Registered Senior Member

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    A Replay to Galen claims:

    You have no one evidence that Muslims took the stages of embryology from Galen, you just came here and use your confident (which proved TO BE wrong).

    Here are evidences that we didn't take them from Galen:

    1- Galen's work was based on animals like you wrote above (But let us take the account back again to the first conformation of the animal, and in order to make our account orderly and clear, let us divide the creation of the foetus overall into four periods of time.)
    He didn't say that those stages are similar to human.

    2- "He makes you in the wombs of your mothers in stages, one after another, in three veils of darkness."

    the first known illustration of a fetus in the uterus was drawn by Leonardo da Vinci in the 15th century. In the 2nd century A.D., Galen described the placenta and fetal membranes in his book "On The Formation of the Fetus." Consequently, doctors in the 7th century A.D. likely knew that the human embryo developed in the uterus. It is unlikely that they knew that it developed in stages, even though Aristotle had described the stages of development of the chick embryo in the 4th century B.C. The realization that the human embryo develops in stages was not discussed and illustrated until the 15th century.
    After the microscope was discovered in the 17th century by Leeuwenhoek descriptions were made of the early stages of the chick embryo. The staging of human embryos was not described until the 20th century. Streeter (1941) developed the first system of staging which has now been replaced by a more accurate system proposed by O'Rahilly (1972).


    3- Galen did not discover this as far I know.

    "Then We placed him as a drop in a place of rest."

    This statement is from Quran. The drop or Nutfah has been interpreted as the sperm or spermatozoon, but a more meaningful interpretation would be the zygote which divides to form a blastocyst which is implanted in the uterus ("a place of rest"). This
    interpretation is supported by another verse in the Quran which states that "a human being is created from a mixed drop." The zygote forms by the union of a mixture of the sperm and the ovum ("The mixed drop")

    4- he did not discover this either.
    "And He gave you hearing and sight and feeling and understanding."

    This part of Surah 32:9 indicates that the special senses of hearing, seeing, and feeling develop in this order, which is true. The primordia of the internal ears appear before the beginning of the eyes, and the brain (the site of understanding) differentiates last.

    5- there are more of human creation I did not bring to here, due to forum rules (limited quotes)

    source for above 2-5 are from (A SCIENTIST'S INTERPRETATIONS OF REFERENCE TO EMBRYOLOGY IN THE QURAN By Keith L. Moore, Ph.D., F.I.A.C. The Department of Anatomy, University of Toronto, Canada.)
    :
    http://cafemuslims.tripod.com/holyquran/message/Embryology.html
    http://www.quran.org.uk/ieb_quran_embryology.htm


    6- Another proof from your writing that your are worng:
    including Ibn-Qayyim, who [/B]first spotted[/B] the similarity

    Can you tell me when Ibn-qayyim lived? At what century? Why he was the first to spot similarity between the creation of human and animals. Why he was the first one?

    Answer: because Galen's books were not translated before his period.

    7- From history book, Translations began at Islamic world between the 7AD and 8AD, which means more than 100 years after the prophet died. (you can search your self, I have read this before)

    8- Bring me one name of Islamic/Arabic scientist lived at the period of Prophet Muhammad or before him. I Don't know any.

    9- There many scientific facts mentioned by in Quran only discovered recently, nor Galen or else could before. (read my the 42 nights and upcoming posts)
     
  20. 7x7 nation of moral Registered Senior Member

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    Michel
    I'm collecting your mistakes.

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    1- You said (with confident) that the stages of embryology in Quran are wrong (bones and flesh)
    2- You said (with confident) that Quran dose not even mention the Atom.
    3- You came back to admit the stages are correct but have been taken from Galen's book.
    4- You claim (with no idea what you are talking about ( that Quran says that the atom is the smallest, while the sentence is very obvious to me and the Arabic statements makes no doubt.
    5- you write (or bring from anti-islam sites) with confident that Quran has taken stages of embryology while you skip important details about Galen (Animal) and the period when Muslims noticed the similarity (after the prophet by 100 years)

    Next time read what you write before you press "submit"
     
  21. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    7x7, truely I am sorry, I didn't mean to make fun. Maybe Baklava was a bad choice of words. What I meant is one can say the universe began from “insert anything” and there is no way (as of now) to disprove that statement – simply because there is no knowledge pre-universe. So in essence I could say the universe started as the exhaust out from an exhaust-pipe from an inter-universal-pimped-out-sedan and there is no way to prove I am wrong.

    You wrote: “The Quranic phrase simply says, our universe origin is clouds. Not very complicated. I have brought sources when I posted the thread before., you can read at the creation of universe thread also you can read next:

    Which goes with my Baklava/exhaust-pipe theory. There is no evidence that our universe’s origin is clouds. So one can say anything one likes.

    Strictly speaking, there is no evidence that the Galaxies or any intergalactic objects are formed from clouds. Actually it’s quite conclusive that this doesn’t occur. Clouds are droplets of water that condense around dust particles in the atmosphere of a planet. One may say that dust floating around in space galaxies formed planets and may use the descriptive term “clouds” to describe that dust. But then again one can also say “My mind is clouded”.

    Again this goes to the point of obscurity. With thousands of pages of obscure statements anything can be made to mean anything.

    7x7, the “Big Bang is just one of multiple theories that tries to explain the universe. It may actually be wrong. I personally think there’s a high likelyhood it is wrong.

    Are you willing to say “for the record” that the Qur’an says the universe started off as the Big Bang theory suggests, discounting all other theories?

    You said the universe was created from dust. The Universe – not a nebula. There’s big difference b/w the two.

    Anything that is hypothesized about the creation of the universe is just conjecture.

    Are you stating “for the record” that the Qur’an states that atoms were created at the time the universe was created and not a ~million years later?

    I’ll take your word on it. I don’t see how “but is” somehow added the meaning you attribute to it. And that still doesn’t explain why the word atom was used. The use of the word atom seems (to me) to suggest that the atomic unit was important. Obviously you don’t think so and say that “BUT IS” now includes everything regarless of the word use: atoms. If that is the case, then the use of atom is unnecessary and if anything worthless information included in the sentence. If you say so then I’ll agree to that.(I’d say even baffling – why include the word atom if it has no information?)

    Why was the word atom included in the sentence if (as you say) god really means everything?
     
  22. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    1) Galen did write that development occurred in stages. (as a matter of fact so did Hippocrates as well as Aristotle).

    2) These are mirrored in the Qur’an as I had posted above.

    Therefore one would think that that later copied the former. Which is easier (a) copying something that is well known or (b) copying something from the future that hasn’t been written yet?

    So I must conclude that that portion of the Qur’an is based on writing from 1000 years hence.

    As such, your argument rests on the notion that no one knew of Galen’s work as you say here:

    The short answer is: Harith Ibn Kalada.

    To get a more full picture read on . . . . .

    But how could Muhammed have known these things?

    It is one thing to find the Qur'an repeating the same embryological ideas as those described originally by the ancient Greeks, but is there any way in which we can be sure that the material was familiar to the Arabs of Muhammed's day? Given that so much of what the Qur'an says is based upon Galen's beliefs, it is particularly significant that some 26 books of his work were translated into Syriac as early as the sixth century AD by Sergius of Resh' Aina (Ra's al-Ain). Sergius was a Christian priest who studied medicine in Alexandria and worked in Mesopotania, dying in Constantinople in about AD 532 [1]. He was one of a number of Nestorian (Syriac) Christians who translated the Greek medical corpus into Syriac; others included Bishop Gregorius, al-Rahawy, al-Taybuti, the Patriarch Theodorus and al-Sabakti [2].

    The Nestorians experienced persecution from the mainstream church and fled to Persia, where they brought their completed translations of the Greek doctors' works and founded many schools of learning. The most famous of these by far was the great medical school of Jundishapur in what is now south-east Iran, founded in AD 555 by the Persian King Chosroes the Great (also known as Anusharwan or Nushirvan), whose long reign lasted from AD 531 to around 579.

    The major link between Islamic and Greek medicine must be sought in late Sasanian medicine, especially in the School of Jundishapur rather than that of Alexandria. At the time of the rise of Islam Jundishapur was at its prime. It was the most important medical centre of its time, combining the Greek, Indian and Iranian medical traditions in a cosmopolitan atmosphere which prepared the ground for Islamic medicine. The combining of different schools of medicine foreshadowed the synthesis that was to be achieved in later Islamic medicine [3].

    Arab medicine, to deal with only one side of this question, borrowed from many sources. The biggest debt was to the Greeks ... The medicine of Jundi Shapur was also mainly Greek. There must have been Syriac translations in the library of the hospital there long before the Arabs came to Persia ... According to Ibn Abi Usaybi'a the first to translate Greek works into Syriac was Sergius of Ra's-al-`Ayn [sic], who translated both medical and philosophical works. It was probably he who worked for Chosroes the Great and it was his translations in all probability which were used in Jundi Shapur [4].

    According to Muslim historians, especially Ibn Abi Usaybia and al-Qifti [5], the most celebrated early graduate of Jundishapur was a doctor named al Harith Ibn Kalada, who was an older contemporary of Muhammed. "He was born probably about the middle of the sixth century, at Ta'if, in the tribe of Banu Thaqif. He traveled through Yemen and then Persia where he received his education in the medical sciences at the great medical school of Jundi-Shapur and thus was intimately acquainted with the medical teachings of Aristotle, Hippocrates and Galen." [6]

    He became famous partly as a result of a consultation with King Chosroes [7]. Later he became a companion of the Prophet Muhammed himself, and according to the Muslim medical traditions Muhammed actually sought medical advice from him [8]. He may even have been a relative of the Prophet and his "teachings undoubtedly influenced the latter" [i.e., Muhammed] [9]. "Such medical knowledge as Muhammed possessed, he may well have acquired from Haris bin Kalda [sic], an Arab, who is said to have left the desert for a while and gone to Jundi Shapur to study medicine...On his return Haris settled in Mecca and became the foremost physician of the Arabs of the desert. Whether he ever embraced Islam is uncertain, but this did not prevent the Prophet from sending his sick friends to consult him." [10]

    Harith Ibn Kalada was unable to father any children, and it is said that he adopted Harith al-Nasar (Nadr), who was apparently a cousin of Muhammed, and also a doctor by profession [43]. Interestingly Nadr mocked Muhammed, saying that the stories in the Qur'an were far less entertaining and instructive than the old Persian legends he had grown up with. Perhaps he recognised that the Qur'an had human sources for some of its stories? As a result of this Muhammed became his sworn enemy, and the Prophet put him to death following his capture in the Battle of Badr in 624 [39].

    1.G. Sarton, (Williams and Wilkins, 1927) Introduction to the History of Science, vol I, pp. 423-424

    2.A. A. Khairallah (American Press, Beirut, 1946) Outline of Arabic Contributions to Medicine, p. 24

    3.H. Bailey (ed) (Cambridge University Press, 1975) Cambridge History of Iran, vol 4, p. 414

    4.C. Elgood (Camrbidge University Press, 1951) A Medical History of Persia, p. 98

    5.See for example Ibn Abi Usaybia, "Classes of Physicians" in 649 AH/1242AD; or al-Qifti, "History of the Philosophers", 624AH/1227AD.

    6.M. Z. Siddiqi (Calcutta University, 1959) Studies in Arabic and Persian Medical Literature, p. 6-7

    7.E. G. Browne (Cambridge University Press, 1962) Arabian Medicine, p. 11

    8.M. J. L. Young et al., (Cambridge University Press, 1990) Cambridge History of Arabic Literature: Religion, Learning and Science in the `Abbasid Period, p. 342

    9.A. A. Khairallah, op. cit., p. 22

    10.C. Elgood, op. cit., p. 66

    Incidentally, it seems that not even Prof. Moore is sufficiently convinced by the scientific "facts" in the Qur'an to risk his reputation as a highly respected professor of anatomy in the medical establishment. The Islamic edition of his textbook not available even in the British Library or the US Library of Congress, let alone other medical libraries in Western countries presumably because he is aware that not only do the Islamic contributions in it contradict known science, but they also contradict what he has written in the standard version of his textbook. If that wasn’t the case I’m sure he’d have made sure it was at least available in one of the two of the worlds largest archives (seeing as millions of other Arabic texts are one has to wonder???).
     
  23. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    That's good I'll admit to any mistakes and respond.

    I still think it is wrong. It seemed to suggest to me that bones are wrapped in meat. This suggests that bare bones are formed form something (maybe flesh) and that isn’t the case. Bone grow from within flesh.

    Man we did create from a quintessence (of clay); Then we placed as (a drop of) sperm (nutfah) in a place firmly fixed; Then we made the sperm into a clot of congealed blood (alaqah); Then of that clot we made a (fetus) lump (mudghah); then we made out of that lump bones and clothed the bones with flesh; then we developed out of it another creature. (Qur'aan 23:12-14)

    This says that the bones are clothed in flesh. THAT simply doesn’t happen. There is never a time when there are bones not concealed in flesh. They are always concealed in flesh.

    The word “atom” definitely did not have the meaning it has today – which is as you are using it. Either that or no one from the ME thought to develop a periodic table

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    But I’ll concede the point. OK the Qur’an says Atom.

    So the Qur’an has at least one Greek word in it – yes?

    Yes they were taken from Galen’s book. No they are equally as wrong as he was.

    I can only read what is written. If the word atom isn’t a good translation then we can blame god for making a book that wasn’t perfect enough to be universally translated – maybe making a book that was universally translatable is beyond the capabilities of god

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    I’ve added more information in the above post and I’ve included all the citations such that you can look them up. You’ll notice that ISLAMIC historians where included in the citation line up!
     

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