I'll take your increasing berevity in reply here as attempting to appear subtle and clever to mask the lack of a real reply. Hence, now I will begin my victory dance Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
I'm with G. The 20th century was a controlled experiment in collectivism vs freedom. East Germany/West Germany, North Korea/South Korea, the Soviet Union/US. Collectivism doesn't work because it goes against human nature. People are lazy, greedy, and competitive. They will game any system to get the greatest benefit for the least effort. Give 'em food stamps, and they'll spend their time figuring out how to buy hookers, cigarettes, and booze with them. Capitalism works because it turns mens evils into assets by forcing all to compete against all in ingenuity and hard work. Collectivism doesn't work because it assumes men are saints. With no connection between effort and reward men will compete to see who can expend the least effort for the same reward.
People being being greedy, lazy, untrustworthy and etc also is the problem with Randian type Objectivism and such. People are not usually the noble creatures depicted in Ayns writings. Therefore experiments in a truly unmanaged economy/market usually end in something resembling Feudalism. Hell, I've heard true freemarket nutcases spouting that everything from medicine to the military should be *completely* privatized! You want companys like Enron and Halliburton managing our nuclear weapons, submarines, aircraft carriers . . . . I tell you, Feudalism. We need in intelligently managed open market. Something that surely could be pulled off if we tried. This polarization of thinking that there is either full bore socialism, or full bore capitalism, is mental drivel - there is no end to the permutations we could come up with.
I'm not anticipating that you ever could be capable of voluntarily doing such things for me. So I guess I'll have to do it all for myself. But you don’t that’s the point. I don’t think you pay the full costs of the sidewalk on which you sleep on, do you? So much for your idea of society: Gather together those who can do it all for you, because you obvioulsy can't do it for yourself, or for anyone else. That’s not the idea of society, at least not mine. I think it is obvious that what you are saying is dribble. You need slaves to survive. Not me… You haven't the smarts to do it for yourself. That’s right I don’t know how to fix pipes, or repair my street so I do need others to do it for me. Can you do it G? I doubt it, you can hardly read. What makes you think you have the smarts to protect yourselves That made NO sense… you're just another common thief? I am stealing your dignity…so I am.
I'm with G. The 20th century was a controlled experiment in collectivism vs freedom. East Germany/West Germany, North Korea/South Korea, the Soviet Union/US. Collectivism doesn't work because it goes against human nature. Err been to the former Soviet Republic lately? So much for capitalism. The reasons South Korea and a few other Asian nations are the ONLY nations that have made it out of the third world is because the US gave massive aid to them during the cold war both as an example of the supposed superiority of capitalism and also to ensure that they didn't end up turning into commies. Meanwhile dividing up the world into 4 economic tiers and looking at the time period of 1960 till 1998, 6 countries have improved a tier (5 Asian) and 70 have gone down a tier. You can primarily thank the IMF (international monetary fund) and WB (World Bank) for this. They have forced extreme rightwing trickledown economics on these nations in exchange for desperately needed loans. You can also thank the CIA which has overthrown countless democracies that were too economically liberal for their liking. Most recently in Haiti. Trying and so far unsuccessful in Venezuela. (Both stories that are as important to any non-nationalist as Iraq.) If you want far more detail, IOW, if you want to actually learn something worthwhile about how (communism/socialism/anything remotely liberal) "failed". Read this very short summary of US interventions in third world politics: http://thirdworldtraveler.com/Blum/US_Interventions_WBlumZ.html
undie-sided; You're free to think whatever floats your own boat. Of course I don't pay the full cost of any particular sidewalk. Neither do you. You're of the Intelligencia class, right? The lower 50-percentile, no doubt. Interesting qualifier. Then publicly renounce any and all current and future personal claims to government entitlements of any and all kinds. Right here. Right now. Honestly. Honorably. Let's hear it. You freely admit to possessing inadequate knowledge, yet you pretend to expertly know me? You can only hope that I'm less than you can imagine. You're just another creature of irrational faith. Not my problem. Pleased to be your inflatable of choice.
emphryio; Interesting that the Entitlements Class can't see the relevence of entitlements of which they're not the singular beneficiary. We voted for them, before we voted against them. Right. Memememememe.
It's amazing that you can deny the truth to such an amazing degree. If collectivism is superior, or even equivalent, how do you explain it's collapse EVERYWHERE it's been tried. What about the Soviet Union? What about China? My grandfather escaped Cuba before the communists took over and turned that country into a hell hole. He went back to visit his cousin, who had the misfortune of living under your preferred system of government, and found him living in squalor. My grandfather was staying at a hotel and wanted his cousin to stay with him for a few days but was told no Cubans were allowed in the hotel. He was propositioned by a prostitute and the asking price was a bar of soap. There's your worker's paradise. Women whoring themselves for soap and natives barred from hotels, except as servents.
Mr. G, wow! So there are no replys for a couple of hours . . . late at night/early in the morning and so you say: Hmmm, don't want to interrupt your little victory dance here stud, but who really is carrying the most vanity here? I would think that ego requires a pretty stout neck there stud! ;-) Seems like there has actually been some good discussion here! Thanks for the chuckle! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Of course I don't pay the full cost of any particular sidewalk. Neither do you. I know I don’t but aren’t you the one bitching about society paying it for you so you can sleep on it? I think I’ve proved you’re a hypocrite. You're of the Intelligencia class, right? I never said I was, but since you think I am I guess so thanks. Then publicly renounce any and all current and future personal claims to government entitlements of any and all kinds. Right here. Right now. Honestly. Honorably. No because the government has a role in our society, it keeps the thing together. If you would enjoy living in a society without a government then this is your paradise: Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Yes Somalia, no central government, and hey G. you can get a great diet. You freely admit to possessing inadequate knowledge, yet you pretend to expertly know me? What does fixing pipes and you have in common? I know they both pass feces around…so actually I don’t know you nor would I want to know you. Not my problem. Well actually it is, I didn’t write that nonsense you did. Pleased to be your inflatable of choice. No actually you already lack credibility, and legitimacy, you are merely making it worse for yourself.
Gravity; The internet is 24/7. Oh, wait. Acknowledged down-time freely admits that Sciforums isn't a global marketplace. My bad for imagining it to be more than it is. That you for your clarification. Well done.
Undie-sided; Then how can you imagine that you can speak for me, as you speak for your own self-interest? Where's the surprise that you care nothing for me? Where's the surprise that, your having freed me from the obligation of caring for you as much as you care for me, I care the same for you?
It's amazing that you can deny the truth to such an amazing degree. If collectivism is superior, or even equivalent, how do you explain it's collapse EVERYWHERE it's been tried. It's never been tried on a national scale. Ever been to a kibbutz anthony? Seems to work for those fellows. My grandfather escaped Cuba before the communists took over and turned that country into a hell hole. I went to Cuba in '02 nice place. Spent a week 5 star in Havanna then rented a beachfront villa near Cienfuegos 'La Perla del Sur'. Well named IMHO. Shame about the crowds of tourists around the marina though Good fishin' good food cheap car hire and lots of English speaking locals even up in the hills. We talking 'bout the same island? G Memememememe. Who? Dee Cee
Then how can you imagine that you can speak for me, as you speak for your own self-interest? I don’t speak for you, I don’t think any rational human being could. So don’t fret… Where's the surprise that you care nothing for me? That’s still to much caring… Where's the surprise that, your having freed me from the obligation of caring for you as much as you care for me, I care the same for you? I don’t care for you, but something has too…one day you'll find that thing/person whichever comes first.
Here is a well reasoned article explaining why Bush not Kerry is Al Q’s man in the White House: That’s why I find the GOP so VERY comical…it’s like smoking when you have lung cancer, the only problem is that you just don’t know that smoking caused it. That article merely supports my long stated stance that GWB is the best thing to happen to Al Q in a while. GWB and the Republicans never heard that picking at a scab only makes it worse?
