Russian special forces have stormed the school... (merged thread)

Discussion in 'World Events' started by LaLuna, Sep 3, 2004.

  1. John_angry Banned Banned

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    109
    well actually they blatantly open fire at kids aswell, sad but true, and my tax money has to end up to those bastard Israelis

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    and i dont trust those communist bastards aswell, Russia is up to something

    and oh yeah, 60,000 Chechen women were raped by Russians so yes i am right

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  3. John_angry Banned Banned

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    personally i dont trust the Russian soruces i know for a fact that Russia is VERY tough on terrorist hostage taking and would attack that building no matter what.

    but wots so good about Chechnya, its not Russias in the first place so why do dey want it so bad?? i heard cos its got nice scenery but what else?????
     
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  5. Eng Grez Registered Senior Member

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    102
    To the person who said something about Russian logic:

    That is not Russian logic. Russian logic is that the Chechens want to rumble, then there's going to be a rumble.

    With any hostage situation, the only power the terrorists have is their hostages. If they lose the hostages, they have absolutely no power. They depend on the fact that the government of the nation they're dealing with values the lives of the hostages more than the lives of the terrorists. Which of course, they do.

    The only way a terrorist can win in a hostage situation is if the government decides that the lives of the hostages are worth more than getting rid of the terrorists.

    Russia doesn't. This is not the United States, or France, or Britain. This is the Bear. The Russian people don't give a damn what happens to the Chechens. If Russia nuked Grozny tomorrow, the Russians would yawn, take another sip of their coffee, then go off to work.

    The reason Chechnya should not have independence is that it is legally a part of Russia and has no legitimate claim to independence.

    Until, of course, the Russians starting shelling Grozny with artillery and such. And then the Islamic terrorists got in, killing civilians rather than simply opposing the Red Army (which they had been doing quite well; when the Russians entered Grozny in the mid-90s they lost 90 armored vehicles and were actually forced to retreat from the city, the reputation of the Russians that had existed since the end of WW2 as an unstoppable land juggernaut shattered), it delegitimatized Chechen independence. And then the Russians beat up on Grozny a bit more, and the terrorists killed some more civilians, and on and on and on.

    No side deserves to rule Chechnya. Through their tactics both have thoroughly delegitimatized themselves. In comparison to Chechnya, the conflicts in Kashmir, Israel, Iraq, are pinpricks. The Russians indiscriminately shell towns with artillery before entering, then use helicopters and tanks to do retail what their howitzers were doing wholesale. Grozny looked, and for all I know, still looks like Berlin in May 1945, a nice big pile of rubble.

    But the fact is that the Chechens have gone beyond the pale now. Now they're merely cannon fodder for Al-Qaeda instead of freedom fighters. They've allowed themselves to become a subsidiary front on the war on terror instead of a struggle for freedom. Russia loudly tells everyone that Chechnya is a part of the war on terror - and no one is going to tell Russia to stop. Russia has consistently ignored each and every international call, every initiative, everything from outside forces to try to get a peaceful solution.

    And you people talk about American unilateralism.
     
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  7. Undecided Banned Banned

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    EngGrez,Kala,Pakman

    The reason Chechnya should not have independence is that it is legally a part of Russia and has no legitimate claim to independence.

    They do have a legitimate claim that claim is that they were taken over by the Russian empire, and never accepted Russian rule. This is the disgusting imperial logic that pervades failed states like Russia. How can Russia hope to keep on to Chechnya when Russia’s population is consistently declining, this is merely going to become another Afghanistan, a sore on the Russian psyche, and treasury. If Russia is as she claims to be, a modern, democratic, state then why not allow the people of Chechnya their democratic right to decide to secede or not? Imperialism never lasts, and Russia is a vestige from an Imperial era long gone. Now that Russia is turning back into an authoritarian state under Putin, Russia too will eventually lose the moral high ground.
     
  8. Dreamwalker Whatever Valued Senior Member

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    4,205
    Speaking about Russia, did you all read what Mr. Vladimir Putin had to say today?


    Yep, looks like the Russians want to rumble and Chechnya is probably a bad place to be in the near future.
    Given, Russia has a reason to act, but it will only provoke more violence.

    As to the news coming out of Russia, I would not trust them entirely since most news agencies and broadcasting companies are under control of the government.
     
  9. Avatar smoking revolver Valued Senior Member

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    19,083
    oil. lots and lots of oil
    and whole russia's economy depends on oil exports
     
  10. dixonmassey Valued Senior Member

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    2,151
    Or, you could be so blinded by desire to revenge the death of your children so you'd willing to kill the children on "the other side". Just to get even. "Getting basdards who did it" is rather diffult. In most of the cases nobody but bastards "who did it" know "who did it". Your children were evaporated by vacuum bomb? Whom are going "to get"?

    All we here are soooooooo smart, compassionate, bleeding heart..... None of us was in situations which would blinded us with revenge so much. Still, we feel that we have the right to pass the judgement. Sorry, bleeding heart pals we have no such a right.
     
  11. Avatar smoking revolver Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    19,083
    right or no right but it is being done showing a finger to all rights
    so it doesn't really matter -> those rights are there or not,
    because neither side takes them seriously
     
  12. path Militant wiseguy Registered Senior Member

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    1,314
    In this case right or wrong it would probably turn out to be chechens and as I said at the odds they are facing this kind of strategy is the last thing that will benefit them. Who is a bleeding heart here and who is passing judgement?
     
  13. dixonmassey Valued Senior Member

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    2,151
    You see, "revenge" does not care about strategy. Revenge does not care about benefits, etc. People bent on the revenge do not think in the same way as well fed/full of themselves/shielded of the major disasters, etc. wimps in suburbia.
     
  14. zanket Human Valued Senior Member

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    3,777
    Let's have some perspective. The US killed more kids just in 2003 than "terrorists" have in the last 50 years. And on offense too, whereas terrorists are typically on defense. Russia probably comes in second. Whenever civilians are targeted, kids are included.
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2004
  15. zanket Human Valued Senior Member

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    3,777
    Yeah, it’s hard to believe such strategy could be effective. When you are outgunned on defense your best choice is “terrorism.” Kids are fair targets. Killing kids, because it gets more attention, can minimize death to end an offensive/oppression. Certainly one million parents should not be killed if one child’s death will accomplish the same goal. Then we know that a child’s life is not worth an infinite amount.

    Although parents of killed kids will seek revenge, the majority will reconsider their support for offense/oppression, to protect their own kids. If you knew that a vote for somebody would result in the death of your child, you wouldn't vote for them now would you?
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2004
  16. John_angry Banned Banned

    Messages:
    109
    give Chechniya independence or atleast Russia should pay back compenstaion to Checnya for colonism and destroying its econmy. eventually i think Russia is gonna beaten just as in Afghanistan.
     
  17. Russian School siege

    The new Islamic radical, kills kids & innocent strangers. Are these the people you want to win the war on terror?

    From:
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3627586.stm
     
  18. dixonmassey Valued Senior Member

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    2,151
    Sure, mass death of children from the Russian vacuum bombs, drunk conscripts and mercenaries, etc. is much more "sweeter" and civilized. School siege is a terrible show of human savagery. However, it should not be used as an excuse to place an "innocent lamb" mask on the Russian "face" and "faces" of the rest "terrorism fighters".
     
  19. path Militant wiseguy Registered Senior Member

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    1,314
    Riiiight so as I said the chechens come off on the losing end, revenge-> revenge.

    edit:who were the bleeding heart, judgemental posters you were refering to?
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2004
  20. path Militant wiseguy Registered Senior Member

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    1,314
    No killing kids just exacerbates the situation x 10 since when have the russians been folks who give a fuck about media pressure. And which media exactly is it that is gonna say "look they killed your kids, now you have to play nice"


    Have you actually read much russian history? We aren't talking about suburbia and soccer moms here.
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2004
  21. yeah, I'm sure you're right, it was the Russians fault, when will they ever learn?
     
  22. Avatar smoking revolver Valued Senior Member

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    19,083
    Actually it is. They have nothing to do in that land (Chechna). And it's a war where both sides have no morals because it is easier without them.
     
  23. Undecided Banned Banned

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    4,731
    Ladies and Gents, this is the real war we are talking about here. For all the bluster that Putin irks out about declaring war on all of Russia, the reality is that a war against the invisible is very hard to fight. Now I understand where Zanket is coming from, he’s looking at the kids vs. 1 million adults situation in a utilitarian light is that a sick logic? No, we use it all the time. But the reality is that even though Zanket is very logical on this, I too feel that they went too far. Yes I do have emotions! But Russia has gone way off the edge as well, lets not forget that Russian history is one of imperial rule, and to maintain the integrity of that that Empire. Russia is a state with an imperial past, and borders that represent it. Russia is not a state; it’s an empire merely masquerading as a modern state. It is not unlike China with her control of Tibet, we are talking about people who have never accepted the rule of the central imperial authority. Like in China if Tibet were to actually cede the country could conceivably fall apart. Russia is on her way down…way down. Her population is expected to be halved by 2050, and it doesn’t show signs of reversing. Meanwhile the proportion of Muslims within Russia will increase. Putin is a Brezhnev in capitalist’s shoes, quite honesty. Russia historically cannot tolerate weak leadership, and her economy shows the strains of weak leadership (just ask Czar Nicholas II). Russia under Putin is having a Soviet revivalist spirit, there is no real free press in Russia anymore, and Putin has no real opposition to his rule (he rules the airwaves). What I fear ladies and gentlemen is not what will happen to Chechnya, she’s been raped before; but rather where will Russia end up?
     

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