When Arafat dies, what going happen to Palestine? (Merged Thread)

Discussion in 'World Events' started by otheadp, Oct 27, 2004.

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  1. towards Relax...head towards the light Registered Senior Member

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    "The Palestinians were interested in this map, according to Gush Shalom, they were drawing maps. I think that it was Barak's defeat that killed this.", M-16

    Barak was defeated because of the new intifada that was started months earlier, a carefully calculated piece of violence by Arafat. Arafat simply refused to return to the negotiating table, insisting on right of return. He knew there was impossible for Palestinians to return to Israel in large numbers, and deliberately wanted to end the process. During peace, the international eye would become aware of his immense corruption.
     
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  3. otheadp Banned Banned

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    The fucker is in ICU!!! yippy yay

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    good news after good news.

    viva el Bush

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  5. Vortexx Skull & Bones Spokesman Registered Senior Member

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    Allthough I am not the cheerfull type like Othead that would play the harp while Rome is burning, history will probably learn that peace could be possible with the old icons of violent past out of the way, maybe Sharon should also be in the ICU and we all could have a fresh start?
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2004
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  7. Undecided Banned Banned

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    Towards:

    It depends on how you look at it observe:

    Whom am I to believe? A reputable French newspaper, or whatever you showed me?

    http://mondediplo.com/maps/campdavid2000

    And how is this the case. The country is completely connected in large sections.

    Again that is more of an assumption then a fact.

    And how is this the case. The country is completely connected in large sections.

    That is more of an assumption then a fact, one that I am not wiling to concede unless I see an official map from a government (preferably a European, UN, or even the US).

    The Israeli settlements that are shown are located in Palestinian territory, and would be under Palestinian control and protection. The vast majority of those settlements were small and most may eventually wither.

    That wasn't so much the problem the problem was that large swaths of land would be delegated to Israel which still had Palestinian ppl, land, and farms on it. The amount of land offered in return to the Pals. in porportion to the land lost was miniscule. Also you forget that the key issue over the collapse of the talks was about Jerusalem, and even your map shows the city would still be under virtual full Israeli control and the surrounding areas. Areas of Jerusalem, and the surrounding areas that are legally part of Palestine. You don't reward theives.

    If you do not believe that some Israelis had the right to live in the West Bank, then by that logic Israel should remove its 2 million Palestinians within its borders. Finally, the Palestinians THEMSELVES wanted this proposal. Arafat rejected it.

    LOL! Oh yes that convoluted logic, Israel has 1 million Arab citizens they do not call themselves Palestinians. Secondly unlike the Arabs living in Israel, the settlers are illegally settling on land that is not hers. There is no logical comparison to Arabs in Israel and Zionists in Palestine. Secondly I don't think the Palestinians would have such a big problem if the settlements were to exist under a Palestinian state. I would imagine the settlements would still exist in a Palestinian state just not under Israeli sovereignty but with numerous agreements to secure the security of the settlers. Unlike apartheidist Israel, I think the Palestinians would give their Israeli citizens more rights then Israel gives to her Arab citizens.

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  8. Truenemo1889 Registered Senior Member

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    Arafat officially just "croked"

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    Last edited: Nov 4, 2004
  9. VAKEMP Registered Senior Member

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    Yep, he's gone.
     
  10. spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

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    Where is this being reported? I have read only unconfirmed reports.
     
  11. Xerxes asdfghjkl Valued Senior Member

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    yes!

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    The world is a better place today


    "Ha Ha You're Dead" -Green Day

    How do you get your sleep at night?
    How did you get your noose so tight?
    Like chewing on tinfoil, it's so much fun
    Gonna be dead before your gone

    Cause look how things have gotten
    And I'll be happy so I won't pretend
    And I'll be cheering that you're going down
    And I'll be laughing, I'll be laughing

    How many feelings can you steal?
    Gotta be part of your appeal
    I can see through you cause you're wearing thin
    Like chewing on tinfoil once again

    Ha Ha you're dead
    And I'm so happy
    In loving memory
    Of your demise

    When your ship is going down
    I'll go out and paint the town
    Ha Ha you're dead
    Ha Ha you're dead
    Ha Ha you're dead

    (ha ha ha)

    Ha Ha you're dead
    The joke is over
    You were an asshole
    And now you're gone
    As your ship is going down
    I'll stand by and watch you drown

    Ha Ha you're dead
    You're gonna be dead
    Just remember what I said
    Ha Ha you're dead
    Ha Ha you're dead
    Ha Ha you're dead
     
  12. Xerxes asdfghjkl Valued Senior Member

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  13. Undecided Banned Banned

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    Exactly I hope you Zionists don't have seizures before the end of the day. Actually if I were Israeli I wouldn't be all that happy that Arafat is gone in lieu of who is likely to replace him. So before you get those depends diapers do something amazing...think.
     
  14. Xerxes asdfghjkl Valued Senior Member

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    With the current structure, nothing happens. We're in a perpetual cycle of constant violence. His death will bring the opportunity to end this cycle once and for all.

    ANYTHING-bar nuclear war- is better than the current situation.
     
  15. Undecided Banned Banned

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    With the current structure, nothing happens. We're in a perpetual cycle of constant violence. His death will bring the opportunity to end this cycle once and for all.

    Ah...I wouldn't hold my breath. The vast majoirty of the violence propagated against Israel has shifted from the Arabist camp under Arafat to the religious camp whose leader is not known. Arafat's death will only bring more desperation because invaribly there will be a huge vaccum of power that cannot be easily filled. Not only could there inter-palestinian warfare, or strife. The Islamic militants would find it very attractive to attack Israel to gain popular support.

    ANYTHING-bar nuclear war- is better than the current situation.

    With Bush elected I am seriously fearing a nuclear conflict in the Middle East.
     
  16. VAKEMP Registered Senior Member

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    Officially, he hasn't been pronounced dead. I heard two different news reporters from two different sources say they were told he was dead, but they are waiting to pass the official word for security reasons.

    I think he is in fact dead, but until the 'official' word comes out, there is no proof as I didn't record the news. It was on Fox (I'm at work and we have both CNN and Fox on, so don't get your panties in a wad!). One reporter told GWB that Arafat had just died, and later on a Newsweek reporter was being interviewed on Fox and said her sources had confirmed Arafat was dead.

    Then again, reporters have jumped the gun before, so...

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  17. Undecided Banned Banned

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    We all know he is going to die soon (save a miracle) the question is instead of having seizures of joy, one should much rather contemplate what the consequences of that is.
     
  18. VAKEMP Registered Senior Member

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    679
    Well, I for one am neither Zionist nor having seizures of joy.

    Arafat's death is a big issue, and I am interested to see if there is a possibility of something positive coming out of it, and am hoping the situation doesn't worsen.

    To think that Arafat's death is insignificant would be worse, don't you think?
     
  19. Undecided Banned Banned

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    Arafat's death is a big issue, and I am interested to see if there is a possibility of something positive coming out of it, and am hoping the situation doesn't worsen

    Of course its a big issue, and its a big deal. The reason though why I think its a big deal may be different then yours. Unlike the urinating Zionists, to the more rational members of society the question must be posed what is the alternative. Should Arafat's death be seen as a positive or as a negative. As of right now I simply don't know but I am personally leaning to the negative because the P.A has lost a lot of political capital due to their failure to protect Palestinians from Israeli actions.

    To think that Arafat's death is insignificant would be worse, don't you think?

    Whom here said it was insignifcant? I hope you weren't trying to imly me.
     
  20. towards Relax...head towards the light Registered Senior Member

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    "Whom am I to believe? A reputable French newspaper, or whatever you showed me? ", Undecided

    What I showed you is a map from the foundation for middle east peace, a not-for-profit organization located in Washington D.C. and headed by several past diplomats of the United States. It gives out grants to both the Palestinians and Israelis in order to find a solution to the violence in the West Bank. They are also very critical of Israeli policy. If you go straight to http://www.fmep.org/maps/, you will get a look at several phases of maps during the peace process. The one you have shown was the first one Israel proposed upon entering negotiations, which you will also find at this website. You will notice a striking similarity. I do not see why you would doubt any of these maps, if not just out of spite or an attempt to talk around the reality of the conflict.

    The map I showed last time was a gush shalom proposal that Barak was waiting until after elections to install. He, however, made the Palestinian leadership aware of the proposal before his downfall, and the Intifada started by Arafat made it all but impossible. No offer would have satisfied Arafat, he did not want peace.

    If Arafat dies I have no doubt the peace process will be better for it, since I feel that a moderate may emerge. The Palestinians have suffered long, and seem to be looking to end the current situation. They are well aware that if the likes of Hamas continue their war path unabated, peace will never come.

    "areas of Jerusalem, and the surrounding areas that are legally part of Palestine. You don't reward theives.", Undecided.


    I agree that the Palestinians do deserve control over the city, but you have to be realistic. Israel will never give up control of Jerusalem in full, so what they were offered simply has to be accepted. Jerusalem is not worth the suffering the Palestinians are going through, and I have no doubt the average person in the West Bank would agree. The real world does not contain justice, one must deal with the realities of the situation.

    "Secondly I don't think the Palestinians would have such a big problem if the settlements were to exist under a Palestinian state", Undecided

    That is the proposal for most of them, if you take a look at the map. I think the big problem was the Israel use of an extremely unequal share of resources such as water. Again, the peace proposal delt with those issues. Without such an edge on the resources, most of the settlers would probably abandon and the settlements would die.

    "I would imagine the settlements would still exist in a Palestinian state just not under Israeli sovereignty but with numerous agreements to secure the security of the settlers", Undecided

    Security would obviously be necessary, but again, the problem was the robbing of the resources. This would not occur under Palestinian sovereignty.
     
  21. VAKEMP Registered Senior Member

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    679
    Which is why I take interest in it.

    It might be different, but why do you assume it is? Also, why do you immediately follow that sentence with this one:

    ?

    Urinating Zionists? Why would this concern me? You go from how our views may differ to urinating Zionists. One could conclude that you're suggesting I am a urinating Zionist, or that I would be IF I thought Arafat's death was a big deal for a different reason than yours.

    That seems like a good conclusion based on supporting information. I don't understand why you felt you had to insult others (Zionists or those you accuse of being Zionists for having a different opinion than yours) before sharing this information.

    I didn't accuse anyone of saying Arafat's death would be insignificant, and I wasn't implying you did. I was responding to your previous post, which seemed to imply that myself as well as others were having 'seizures of joy' over Arafat's death. Confirming that it has been reported that Arafat is dead isn't biased one way or the other, which is what you automatically assumed.
     
  22. sargentlard Save the whales motherfucker Valued Senior Member

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    When Arafat dies, what going happen to Palestine?

    What can be expected? Simple question. What do you forsee happening if Ararfat dies?
     
  23. Undecided Banned Banned

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    The one you have shown was the first one Israel proposed upon entering negotiations, which you will also find at this website. You will notice a striking similarity. I do not see why you would doubt any of these maps, if not just out of spite or an attempt to talk around the reality of the conflict.

    I didn’t reject your map; show me where I did that? Now looking at the revised map of the final status agreement it is understandable why 97% would sound so good but be so untrue. Now if you are to look at any of the maps settlements still exist within Palestine proper and these settlers are not exactly peaceniks. The chances for war to happen would be great and the Zionist settlers would probably start them. Also looking at the map the Palestinians were not duly compensated for the land they last to the settlements, the land offered was in the Negev desert…you might as well give them shit. Then you have the status of Jerusalem which I come to later. In essence 97% sounds good but the reality isn’t.

    He, however, made the Palestinian leadership aware of the proposal before his downfall, and the Intifada started by Arafat made it all but impossible.

    Mind showing me evidence that Arafat started this intifada? From what I know this intifada started when Sharon not Arafat provoked a predictable, and fulfilled intimidation of Palestinians on the Temple mount calling it forever Israeli in 2000. I remember watching the news from that time added in with the feeling of desperation felt by Palestinians through the failure of Camp David, and Taba. I have never seen any actual evidence that Arafat started the intifada, I have seen and remember Sharon.

    If Arafat dies I have no doubt the peace process will be better for it, since I feel that a moderate may emerge. The Palestinians have suffered long, and seem to be looking to end the current situation. They are well aware that if the likes of Hamas continue their war path unabated, peace will never come.

    So Hamas will, I have no question that many Palestinians feel that they are left out of the loop now. Since Sharon is unilaterally doing whatever he wants with US support without consulting Palestinians why would they think honestly that a “moderate” P.A would change the political reality that Sharon has created in the region? Do you Israel would tear down its illegal wall if there is moderate leader? Do you think Israel will dismantle its road blocks, do you think that with an ever shifting right of Israel that peace will be possible? I don’t think either side is ready, willing or now due to political realities able to achieve peace. Hamas is gaining power and relevance b/c the P.A has failed them, and Israel has failed the P.A.

    I agree that the Palestinians do deserve control over the city, but you have to be realistic.

    As do you, this is why I don’t consider a two state solution feasible as long as Jerusalem is in contention. Neither side is wiling or able to budge on the city, and as a result a viable Palestinian state will never happen (nor would it anyways). To be realistic to adopt a one state solution, a peaceful way for Israel to die because she will its inevitable.

    Jerusalem is not worth the suffering the Palestinians are going through, and I have no doubt the average person in the West Bank would agree.

    No I would disagree, the Palestinians although suffering are very idealistic and they will fight tooth and nail for that city just as much as Israeli’s.

    That is the proposal for most of them, if you take a look at the map. I think the big problem was the Israel use of an extremely unequal share of resources such as water. Again, the peace proposal delt with those issues. Without such an edge on the resources, most of the settlers would probably abandon and the settlements would die.

    Well it goes to show how impossible Israel has made it to create peace. I know the Pals didn’t build the settlements. Again the only solution is a one state solution. Otherwise perpetual war until either Israel is nuked, destroyed demographically, or as I suspect destroys itself..
     
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