Well you said: We can't actually fathom how omniscience and free will can allow for each other by logic. That doesn't mean God can't since since He is not bound by logic as far as we know (if we are to respect the general definition of God). Therefore to say God plays dice to give life meaning because any other way would illogically mean God's creation serves no purpose is kinda putting God in the same thought mode as we puny mortals. In a nutshell: Just because we can't figure out the purpose of God creating us in an environment sans free will doesn't mean there isn't one. All I'm trying to say is arguments concerning God's nature don't really go anyway since there are many areas where logic and God contradict. To resolve this, I'm just saying God is higher or maybe removed from logic. More on this in a thread I'll make when I have time.
From the Christian point of view, God is a like a mother that lets her kid f**k up, so that he will learn his lesson. Its not a game because God supposedly is working to some result. Not only that but its our fault not his. It doesn't matter if he knows what's going to happen because he's still not controlling us. That's the view that God made the clock but then laid his hands off for it to run.
Caffeine, Where else would one obtain the definition of a god? A god is only a human concept and as far as anyone can tell does not relate to anything real.
Like Cris already said, who the hell else is going to do it? It's a part of language. We define the word.
Insanely Elite: Insofar as such proof is possible, yes. ************* M*W: Could you provide some quotes? Thanks.
Oh BROTHER. We're not telling God what he has to be like, for God's sake, or imposing some requirements on Him. We're just trying to come to common ground as to what a "God" is in these discussions. We're just establishing terms.
That's not putting God in the same "thought mode" as mortals. That's like saying, A: A red-winged blackbird attacked a human who went near its nest; Therefore, red-winged blackbirds must be protective of their young. B: You're imposing human thought modes on birds. It doesn't matter whether God is "bound by logic" or not -- we ARE. I mean, if I'm trying to construct a model for understanding free will and/or predetermined fate, I guess that my only tool is logic -- because blind faith doesn't work and is full of bizarre contradictions -- and so, we can call that a "thought mode", but it's the only tool I've got. If they're selling omniscience somewhere that you know of, let me know -- I'll get myself some, so that I can speak on more evolved level than "logic". Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Well, I could also say that just because we can't figure out any other reason for a black-bird to attack you when you're near its nest, doesn't mean there isn't one, either. I don't think "logic and God" contradict in the least. What do you mean? Even if he were removed fromlogic, how else do you propose we try to find a place for Him -- all we've got is our brains. (And anybody who says "use your heart instead" will bug me to no end -- that doesn't mean ANYTHING.) I just woke up and I'm pissy. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
And besides, the alternative to trying to find a place for God using logic is to either a) engage in religious blind faith-type ask-no-real-questions-just-accept-it shite (in which you probably also accept crap like "Adam and Eve" as literal), or b) throw up your hands and go, "we'll never get it 'cause we're not God, so might as well give up, tee-hee!" If we're not using our "puny" human brains, what else we got?
It's called free will. There's law, you don't have to abide by it, and actions have consequences. Would you rather be a mindless drone? A puppet with no will of your own? No choice..."you'll live...forever...according to my will and my law...and with me...whether you want to or not?" God made you yea, but He's giving you a choice as to whether or not you want to participate. If He created you, He can certainly destroy you as well...you get what you want...what's the problem? Could be that you could learn to play chess from the Master...the Creator of the game. What's more like it is that you are not the other player, but a pawn in the game...a board piece. And you get to decide, based upon how the game is played as you witness it go on around you and with you, who's side you want to be on...God's side (who will most certainly win the game)...or the other side (the losers). Or how about this...you create your own universe and your own laws and your own humanity. And you can invite them over for gin and tonics and to hear you go on about how right you are all the time and about everything. And after the effects of the alcohol wore off, they'd all be like, "Why am I here?...I have laundry to do." The point is to learn from experience and use what you learn to make a choice. Just because God knows what choices you will make before you ever make them does not mean you do not have free will. You make the choices...He just knows what they will be before you do...He's always known. Life is to learn...He is explaining His law to you first hand...by allowing you to live it. You experience good and experience evil and make choices...and you learn from it. Well, seems that some people do...those who want to learn. Maybe those who don't want to learn from it are only here and playing the game so that those who do want to learn will have an opposing team to play with. The Wheats vs The Tares. I want to be on The Wheats team. I love God and I love His law and I hate sin and the awful effects of it, and I would love to live forever with Him and without sin. That is what I have learned in playing this game called life. I win!
lori: as you been told before, your life as a xian is pre- ordained, you have no choice. whats the point learning chess if the outcome is pre-ordained, thats worse then tic tac toe. (why be a piece, when you can be the player.)(you have to be on gods side it's pre-ordained, he wins) learn from what experience, what you do, and what you say, and how you do it,are pre-ordained. explain ?: how it is a choice if he knows what,when, how, why, before you do. do you know how stupid you last paragraph is. how do you win when your told your a sinner all the time, are told how nasty god is, so live in fear of upsetting it, are told god loves you provided you do what it say. there are no conditions on love, love is unconditional. where is the unconditional love from god.
The highways from Seattle to New York are also "pre-ordained". Someone has decided beforehand that those are the ways to go, and ye shall go by them if you ever want to get to Seattle from New York by car. They have been paved, prepared, provided with rules and roadsigns, and you can find them on maps. Car accidents don't change that, getting lost doesn't change that. But staying on the road does not keep you from car accidents or getting lost. Nobody can force you to consult the map or drive safely, after all. You don't suddenly become a robot when you decide to leave your offroading ways and stay on the interstate.
Thats trying to oversimplify things, don't you think? Not that I've ever taken those highways before.
You're still learning aren't you? Or have you given up thinking that there is nothing to learn? I for one continue learning...about the law that we live under here in this universe. You get to experience it first hand throughout your life, so you can understand it. The point to learning chess if the outcome is preordained is that you get to learn to play chess...lol. Apparently I don't...what's so difficult to understand about it? You make the choices, but because He is omniscient, He knows what choices you will make before you do. That does not in any way mean that He makes the choices for you. I am a sinner, and yet are not told that all of the time, as if being brow-beaten. You are made well aware of your sin by the Holy Spirit, which allows you to learn from it, and turn from it, thereby conquering it...which is another word for winning. You are never rid of it, but with God in your life, the effects of it dwindle in His blessing. I'm only told about how nasty God is by those who don't know Him. I know Him...I know better than that. I do not live in fear of anything...most especially God. There is nothing more clear in knowing Him than that He loves you regardless of what you do or say or anything else. His love is unconditional. I know His love...experience it and feel it personally and constantly. God IS love. But you don't know Him, and so you don't know this...you have no understanding because you have no experience. OH! Which brings us back to the point of this thread doesn't it? It is only through EXPERIENCE that we gain KNOWLEDGE AND UNDERSTANDING. And THAT is the point! Eureka! Love, Lori
Nope. The path is available for you to take, along with 100 million other paths. You make your choices when you turn onto that ramp. THERE ARE CHOICES -- no one decided you would go to New York on this date and take this route. You just chose to take the easiest route, for your personal reasons, and you also chose to drive rather than take any other means of transportation. (I know people who don't take highways, by the way.)
I'm saying that there is free will within predestination. God works His plan around your choices to accomplish His will given your choices. So do you want to learn or not? About God? About Jesus? Or do you think you have Him all figured out already? You can know Him you know...have you considered that? Experience is the best way to learn...to have true understanding. That is my whole point, and the answer to your post about "what is the point?" What you think you know about Him keeps you from Him. After all, why seek knowledge when you think you already have all of the answers? If you truly want answers, then why not go to the source of all truth? That is HIM. Learning God's law means just that. Um...being loved and enlightened BY HIM is the answer. Your flesh...meaning your intellect or works...will not provide you with knowledge of God. Rebirth comes only through Christ and by the Holy Spirit. Then you may have knowledge of God because you KNOW Him. He is the source of all truth, and He will explain everything you need to know to you personally. So yes, you win or lose based upon choices that you make...will you rely on your own flesh, or will you rely on God? Do you really want to know the truth about Him or don't you? That is THE choice you need to make. I have a feeling that you will make the right one. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Love, Lori
