US campaign behind the turmoil in Kiev While the gains of the orange-bedecked "chestnut revolution" are Ukraine's, the campaign is an American creation, a sophisticated and brilliantly conceived exercise in western branding and mass marketing that, in four countries in four years, has been used to try to salvage rigged elections and topple unsavoury regimes. http://www.guardian.co.uk/ukraine/story/0,15569,1360236,00.html :m:
The evidence is strong that the vote was shitty. However, hardcore Businessmen are never slow to exploit an opportunity. Uncle Sam has his interest in the region thats for sure. I think we need to wait an see how this pans out. After all the world is watching. Dee Cee
"I haven't seen anything credible to that nature. Sounds like more "spin" from our USA friends!"android Oh yes. The Russians would never attempt to cheat, would they? Considering that Putin won by over 70% and did not even have to campaign, it shows that Russia has no real democracy. They wish to same for the Ukraine, and have fixed the vote in order to gain that. Since all of the exit polls by international organizations (not just American) show Yushchenko ahead, I do not think an American "spin" is required.
Sounds like wild conjecture to me. I like to deal in facts and logic, not insults toward other countries. You and Nasor presenting evidence: FAILED
"Sounds like wild conjecture to me. I like to deal in facts and logic, not insults toward other countries.", Android Here ya go.... the exit polls. http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20041121/ap_on_re_eu/ukraine_elections&e=1&ncid= I guess I must be speaking facts then, ehh? I am sorry that you are offended by my criticism of Russia's pretend democracy. Androids rebuttal: FAILED
It's pretty obvious that Putins hands are all over the blatant fraud that was perpetrated during the elections in the Ukraine. I can understand why he did it too, with Poland and the other nations recently defecting to the E.U, it would be only a matter of time before the Ukraine followed suit if Yushchenko won. Blaming America for the mess when they are essentially a Fourth party (behind Ukrainians, Russia, and the E.U.) in the dispute is reaching for a boogyman that doesn't exist.
Exit polls are not vote tabulations, but public statements given by people in front of their peers. Evidence: FAILED.
I think you're forgetting, in your desire to believe whatever crap they've shoved down your throat, that a quite credible newspaper (the Guardian) is reporting the intervention of US publicity teams in the Ukraine. Therefore, it's natural that you feel the vote was false - you've been told to think this way. LOL
The vote was false, and members of my own parliament (Canada) bore witness to that fact. I'll believe them long before I believe some phantom on a message board.
Android, for sake of argument lets accept the Guardian report is 100% accurate. Can you define your problem with what is described. Is it: 1. The US should stay out of other countries internal affairs. 2. The US should not promote and engineer dissidence in the populace of other countries. 3. Some other reason.
Whatever may have been the case in south-eastern Ukraine, it was clear to this Group’s observers in central Ukraine and western Ukraine that the opposition exercised near complete control. The broadcast media showed bias towards Mr. Yushchenko in these areas, particularly in western Ukraine where Mr Yanukovich was invisible – not even being shown voting on polling day. It is naïve to think only the government had the facilities to exercise improper influence over the polls. http://www.bhhrg.org/CountryReport.asp?CountryID=22&ReportID=230
This theme was replicated a thousand-fold on both sides of the Atlantic: Yushchenko good, Yanukovich bad. It is telling that later in the article Ms. Geyer referred to "the progressive Ukrainians," implying that there are those who are on the side of History in its forward march, and the rest. (Her reference to the southern Russian dialect widely spoken in the southern and eastern half of Ukraine as "a bastardized combination of Ukrainian and Russian" was scandalous, on par with calling Sicilianu a bastardized combination of Italian and Arabic, or Yiddish a bastardized variety of German.) Propaganda disguised as fact was rampant. Votes in the heavily pro-Russian Donetsk and other eastern regions were deemed "probably falsified" but we were not informed of equally credible claims that vote-rigging was rampant in Yushchenko's western Ukrainian strongholds. http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/News/Trifkovic/NewsViews.htm
Well, it looks like there's going to be another run off election in the Ukraine. My guess is Yushchenko will win, and soon after the eastern part of the country will secceed. The west will join the E.U, and the east will seek closer ties with Russia.
Android: The British Helsinki Human Rights Group is an extremely leftist British group highly critical of both Nato and the Europeon Union, and has an extreme dislike for the United States. John Laughland, the leading trustee of the group once was quoted: "“Far from promoting democracy in eastern Europe,Washington is promoting a system of political and mili-tary control not unlike that once practiced by the Soviet Union. Unlike that empire, which collapsed because the center was weaker than the periphery, the new NATO is both a mechanism for extracting Danegeld [ a tribute levied to support Danish invaders in medieval England] from new member states for the benefit of the U.S. arms." The Helsinki organization also supported Milosevic's third election campaign as unflawed and legitimate. Their response to the obvouis state run media control by Milosevic was disregarded because of the following: "the serbians have access to foreign media". Also a quote from Laughland. The report from the BHHRG also claimed that Yushchenko has considerable access to the STATE RUN MEDIA. I guess they simply discount the fact that Yanukovich is the current prime minister and would have obvious control over any state run entity. As a matter of fact, polls showed that in January only 12% of Ukrainian voters were likely to support Yanukovich. How do they account for such a huge increase without some sort of media support? What would you expect from an organization that calls themselves the OSCE observers.... The OSCE has shown no behavior that shoudl lead one to doubt their credibility, but the BHHRG certainly has displayed many reasons. As for exit polls, they are usually very accurate when not taken prematurely, and this is not the case in the Ukraine. "Evidence: FAILED.", Android Third time around, it just loses its charm...
A la Dick Cheney, the Moscow candidate for Ukraine has now said "Protesting this election will result in our being attacked by terrorists." sic
In my mind, the Guardian article says it all, and what is being argued here is merely the pretense of individuals.
Same people who tried to buy the election for John Kerry are funding Yushchenko. Same media owners who went to the matresses for Kerry are choking up with emotion over the wonderful, to them, demostrations in the streets of Kiev. Soros & Company were going for a quinella.
