It's sad, but Scientists of today have little too offer when it comes to imagination. Hmm...strange. Here you are typing an a machine that accesses magnetic data stored on spinning platters that is crammed through a high-speed internet connection into a network of thousands and thousands of computers that share this information with millions of people worldwide on a program designed to allow instant communication to others who are interested in similar topics, all invented by people many time smarter than you...the one with the imagination. And you're using it to bitch and complain about science?! Shit, you should have respect for everything that the organized outcomes of the scientific method have given you today. And you shouldn't be so pissed off that it hasn't found bridged on the moon or aliens anal probing hillbillies.
SkinWalker, you seem to revel in your close-minded view of the world. How can you be so arrogant as to think that you know for certain what exists and what does not? I'm rather amused at the arguments that go on in this forum, because I see stubborn world views on both sides. One side believes that everything is true and the other believes everything is false. Are there no shades of grey in your viewpoints, Skin and Star? Can you not both simply say that we aren't capable of knowing for sure, yet? I admit freely that I haven't a clue if aliens have visted this planet. However, I will say that I find it highly unlikely that we are the only living species of high intelligence in the entire universe. That is a -very- farfetched idea. I choose to accept the possibility of some ufo sightings being credible and possibly alien aircraft. I choose to live with the possibility and knowledge that I don't know everything, so anything is possible. Hell, I could walk out my front door tomorrow and find Sasquatch sleeping on my front porch. Who am I to say he doesn't exist?
I admit freely that I haven't seen any ET's on this planet however would I know if I saw one? I would hope so but maby not. I can only say what I have seen I could not Identify. It could be anything. I do not know for sure that there any ET's visiting the Earth. All I can say is that I am seeking the truth and I do believe our Government is not telling us the truth. And to this I agree 100%.
Amen brotha! I don't believe in everything I hear about - but I wont attack those who believe what I don't Skin Walker and some debunker's I've seen seem to think you have prove everything you believe on an internet forum.
Blackholesun, you're crap above is typical of the arrogance. I don't OWE science anything. More importantly, I was speaking in terms of Space science or astronomy, not computer technology. Why is it okay to believe in black holes, but crazy to believe in aliens on this board? We DON'T KNOW IF aliens exist, so to claim they don't exist misses the ball IMO.
You say my mind is closed (whatever that really means), but you fail to demonstrate how by citing any specifics. I'll take that as a statement designed to invoke response and merely your belief since I obviously don't share your own worldview. I've never once claimed to know what exists or doesn't. I can only state what I've seen evidence for, or noted a lack of evidence to support, various wild claims and speculations of others. Sure, there are "shades of gray." But I subscribe to the philosophy that there is, in principle, a knowable past and present if a hypothetico-deductive model is applied. I am very critical of those that create hypotheses without following true scientific method then calling it science. I agree. It seems unlikely that we are the only intelligent species in the "entire universe." It also seems unlikely that other intelligent species picked our galaxy out of billions of galaxies then our planet orbiting one of billions of stars, traveling perhaps billions of light years spending untold energy. I'd like to believe they do. But I don't allow the things I'd like to believe overrule my critical thinking. There are far too many very prosaic explanations for many, if not most, ufo sightings and claims of intelligently influenced features on planets and moons to simply choose the "alien visitation" hypothesis whilst discarding the prosaic, more likely causes. Believe it or not, I also accept that possibility. But I've yet to see credible evidence to support that. Remember, an extraordinary claim will, by nature, require extraordinary evidence. If you see him, it was probably someone in the bigfoot suit. Afterall, the Wallaces came clean about the primate suit that Mrs. Wallace wore for the film as a hoax.
I don't OWE science anything. And science owes you nothing in return. So go back to your make-believe. Why is it okay to believe in black holes, but crazy to believe in aliens on this board? How can you ask that question? Because observation upholds theory. For a number of years telescopes have caught GRB from the direction of suspected black holes. Images as the one below: http://www.damtp.cam.ac.uk/user/gr/public/images/HSTngc4261.gif coinside with theory about how an accretion ring behaves around a supermassive object. X-ray, light and radio emissions that are gravitationally shifted to lower wavelengths have been detected around thought to be known black holes. But it is still a theory I admit but a damn good one when looking at the evidence. We DON'T KNOW IF aliens exist, so to claim they don't exist misses the ball IMO. I never said I didn't believe in extraterrestrial life. I'm sure it's somewhere out there. But I've seen nothing that would make me assume they traveled here to anal probe rednecks and take apart cows. I've got an over-active imagination. But I never seriously let it blur reality by creating delusions that I can't justify.
I do not believe that Scientist are the blame. I do believe that the Government is to blame for keeping secrets form the people. I consider the to be the Scandal of our lifetime. I would not say all Scientists lack imagination for that is a general statment, And there are Scientists that have imagination and Scientists that lacke imagination. I have imagination and do consider myself to be a Scientist. I understand that you believe as I do that ET's are here and did crash into the Desert in New Mexico 1947. There is so much evidence that points to this event being much moore than a weather baloon that it can not be denied. Therefor the conspiricy and coverup is hidding the most important event in history and those secrets need to come out into the open. And it is the duty of every American to seek the truth and to not acept the febal lies offered to the public.
"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead: his eyes are closed." Quoted on pg. 289 of Adventures of a Mathematician, by S. M. Ulam(Charles Scribner's Sons, New York, 1976). Skinwalker is this what you were referring to?
I fully agree with that quote. But I also agree with this one: "From a drop of water a logician could predict an Atlantic or a Niagara." --Sir Arthur Conan Doyle --from Sherlock Holmes in A study in Scarlet, 1929 Doyle also wrote for Holmes, "The temptation to form premature theories upon insufficient data is the bane of our profession." Though I don't remember which book. But that didn't keep Holmes from saying to Watson on more than one occasion, "the game is afoot!" To love a mystery and rest on baseless assumptions and speculations are two different things.
You must mean the US government - and they must be keeping secrets from every other government too. The Canadian government, for one, is utterly incapable of keeping anything secret.
Starman, I agree that the Government probably does cover some of this up due to "reasons of national security". There in lies the paradox. If these alien bodies or craft's exist, then they are hidden. So how can we prove anything? We can't. That's why this arguing with debunker's will get nowhere. You would have to prove they are hiding alien bodies. I would love to be in on that investigation...
If there were any sort of coverup, why then do "UFOlogists" keep getting their FOIA requests filled? You'd think that the so-called evidence that the UFOlogists keep "discovering" would have been shredded to prevent it from being seen, not simply marked through of names and classified data and sent out via U.S. Mail to whomever requests it. Fawcett and Greenwood (1984) wrote a whole book on how the coverup was deep and throughout the majority of the government (United States). They cited a lot of FOIA documents that they believed to be "proof" of an alien-coverup, but they did so by taking things out of context and refusing to acknowlege FOIA documents that did not support their claim. I mean, we're talking about the same government that couldn't keep the lid on "Watergate," the "Iran-Contra Affair," and Abu Ghraib. No, what we have here is what Daniel Berlyne (1965) discussed as the natural human motivation to reduce conceptual conflict by use of suppression (the reduction of conflict by suppressing thoughts or avoiding information counter to one side of the conflict) and conciliation (a reduction of incompatibility of new information to that of established information). When stone-walled with "where's the evidence," UFO buffs will nearly alway resort to "the government is keeping it secret." Ironically, that's the very last organization on the planet that would be capable of maintaining such a grandiose secret for so long. Why, the polar split that exists between the right and the left alone is enough reason to spill any beans that one side might have a stake in. Sources Berlyne, Daniel (1965). Structure and Directions in Thinking New York: John Wiley and Sons. Fawcett, Larry; Greenwood, Barry (1984). Clear Intent: The Government Coverup of the UFO Experience. Englewood Cliffs, NJ: Prentice-Hall.
HUH?? Where's the smilie, cause you must be joking. You're entire MO is attacking anyone who doesn't agree with you. GET REAL FELLA!
Here is a FOIA document request by Stanton Freedmen regarding Roswell and 80% of the document is blacked out. No there not hididng anything. Not at all. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Have you herd of the Disclosure project? It has not been kept a secret. If not here is a free video. http://www.netro.ca/disclosure/npccmenu.htm Also here is the link to the website. http://www.disclosureproject.com/ Now did you listen to President Eisenhower's departing statment in 1961. "In the counsels of Government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the Military Industrial Complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists, and will persist. We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals so that security and liberty may prosper together." - President Eisenhower - January 1961 And as I rember not many people knew what the F117 Stealth Fighter was untill the late 1980s. That was a secret that they kept very well since the late 1950s. Now that project was classified Top Secret and ETV's are classified Above Top Secret. Not even the President or Congress has a need to know. Acording to Gordon Cooper you canot track anything in the government that is Top Secret. Quoat from Gordon Cooper in the documentry Out of the Blue. http://www.outoftheblue.tv/clips/clips.html#
None of which amount to anything extraordinary. You have to consider that, even now, there are documents that must have references to various diplomatic contacts deleted in order to maintain positive relations with nations or governments that would prefer it not to be known that they worked with the U.S. Friedman undoubtedly picked the example which showed the most blacked out pages (why wouldn't he) and didn't show pages that only had a few references to names, etc. blacked out as required by the privacy act. We should expect that FOIA requests, particularly on a scale of disclosure as large as that released to UFO buff and attorny Peter Gertsen in the 1970's. That, by the way, is where all the FOIA documents that "ufologists" have been using in the last three decades have come from. Gertsen requested specific documents from the CIA and they initially declined. Instead of specific documents, they recommended that Gertsen request all of them! If it was so secret, why be so open? Why not simply destroy the documents? It is infinitly easier to run 3,000 plus sheets of paper through even the cheapest of shredders than it is to go through line-by-line and mark through information covered by the Privacy Act or diplomatic confidentiality. The CIA could even have prepared an anti-UFO document and released that... but what they did release was enough for Fawcett and Greenwood to write a book and proclaim it "evidence" of coverup. Preposterous. And I thought I had established already that I viewed the disclosure project material and found it to be nothing extraordinary. Its simply a bunch of people patting each other on the back, telling each other what an extraordinary thing the great UFO coverup is without providing any extraordinary evidence to support that claim. Its all anecdote. And you really expect Cooper's statement to provide proof of what, exactly? That he witnessed a strange aircraft on an experimental aircraft range? http://www.fiddlersgreen.net/AC/aircraft/Avro-Avrocar/info/info.htm In fact, in a 1978 interview with Omni, Cooper evaded any discussion of the Edwards case by saying, "I'd just as soon not get into the Edwards incident. I didn't get to see anything personally, it was all second hand evidence really." That is if this site's author is to be believed. I didn't see any primary sources listed or citations to the Omni issue, but I have a few issues somewhere, I'll see if I have any from that year. The site's author, however, demonstrates (assuming that he's legitimate) that "Cooper was not an eyewitness, and his claim to have been the boss of the cameramen (Bittick and Gettys) was disputed by Gettys and by the man who was Cooper's boss at the time, as well as by the young AF officer who documented the case for Blue Book. The UFO drifted slowly past the cameramen's position, never extended legs, never landed, never soared out of sight." http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2003/jun/m30-007.shtml James Oberg is that author and VirtuallyStrange.net always struck me as being relatively pro-UFO but also relatively objective and critical of UFO buffs that aren't.
Stryder, Don't forget the quark theory. Diviation between point A and B means: How further point A is from point B, how greater the forces between them to hold them together. Radiowaves don't have any mass. They only are limited by their speed. Soo, we can monitor historical events by their echo or realtime sound with some technical device we haven't invelted yet. Nature bless our complexed minds. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
SkinWalker that is exactly how I would explain your actions. If you are talking about that report from the Air Force "Roswell Case Closed" that was released in the late 1990's, well it supprises me that you are not critical about that report. The report was very unscientific using events that occured in 1955 ie the dummies to explain events of 1947. I would wonder if the report is believed then who are the real dummies in this story? Would it not be the believers?
I think I might have been a bit ambiguous in that quote, I meant to imply that Virtually Strange.net, while it appears objective is, at the same time, critical of UFO buffs that are not objective. That would have been clear, depending upon where you placed the emphasis in reading it to yourself, I suppose. As far as the "Roswell Case Closed" report of the 1990's, I wasn't referring to it. I've not read it, though I've read references to it. On the surface, the explanations provided seem prosaic but plausible and, left with the alternative of alien spacecraft, quite probable. Anthropomorphic dummies to evaluate ejection seat technology advances was the key explanation as I remember it. This must have occurred at some point in space and time during the development of jet fighter technology. The late 40's early 50's near White Sands Proving Grounds seems likely to be such point.
Well, I too believe various govts are keeping secrets pertaining to what some people refer to as UFOs from us. Quite simply, I think various world govts want to keep their secret aircraft, secret. BUT, if you mean that ALL world govts conspire to cover up evidence of aliens, well, that just doesn't fly. For that to be the case, firstly, they'd all have to agree, and see this one issue as mutually beneficial to all, and that would just not happen. I don't think there is a single other issue known, which can illustrate that ALL world govts can agree and co-operate. So, no precedent there. Secondly, the arrival of aliens on earth would have to have coincided exactly with the period of time (quite recently) where governments had the technology to detect them, and the resources to control the dissemination of information. Now, not all of these technologies have evolved in step, either. So, we've had RADAR since WWII, but with propeller driven aircraft, and not many jets available, a very limited ability to respond quickly, or intercept any alien craft, nor get there before they are witnessed. Later on, we have faster interceptors, and thanks to the Cold War, a large military, and lots of govt resources available to respond. Hmm, this is your best period for suppression of information. But lately? Well, technology is inexspensive, and pervasise, and not just the remit of the Military, or Govt. (ie Stealth bombers can be detected using mobile phone mast arrays.) People have camcorders, cameras, mobile phones, the internet. There's just no way any Govt could suppress this information anymore, if we're still being visited. We'd have good quality pictures, video, the govt couldn't stop it. So, any news of aliens before WWII would be well known, and any after. Leaving us the only option to think that if they have been here, it was for a brief period, and they've never been back. But that is not what many think, is it? Some think aliens have been coming here for thousands of years (before governments even, so an impossibility for govts to suppress) and still come. So, just how do all world govts work around these obstacles?
