An increasingly weak America...

Discussion in 'World Events' started by Undecided, Feb 25, 2005.

  1. Brian Foley REFUSE - RESIST Valued Senior Member

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    not me I quite understand Americas power military or economic , I said it before here at present in this world there is only one war being fought and that is the imperial conflict between the capitalist/freemarket rivals of the EU and America . Undecided somehow thinks China is some immense economic/military threat to America Iargue elsewise , I mean which nation militarily encircles which ?. America would overnight operating from Air bases in South Korea would turn North Korea into a car parking lot . Iran is the nation America is concentrating on because Iran is nation of which much wealth for America hinges on . Americas shock and awe would turn Iran into another downtown LA car parking lot .
     
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  3. Undecided Banned Banned

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    Undecided somehow thinks China is some immense economic/military threat to America Iargue elsewise

    Well Brian I asked you to prove me wrong, unless you can I suggest you be quiet, I gave u a thought experiment and I am SURE you can totally destroy it ASAP...if not again be quiet and stop pretending to know what you are talking about ok?


    I mean which nation militarily encircles which ?. America would overnight operating from Air bases in South Korea would turn North Korea into a car parking lot .


    By the same token NK forces can destroy the entire US presence in NK in 30 minutes, even according to US forces in the region. And all the US can do in a NK war would be aerial attacks, because 600,000 men aren't available for the US military, and it would take months, by that time the war would be over. See this what you think "Amerika strong RARARA!!" I think, yes America is strong but it has its limitations.

    Iran is the nation America is concentrating on because Iran is nation of which much wealth for America hinges on . Americas shock and awe would turn Iran into another downtown LA car parking lot .

    And alternatively Iran could attack Israel's nuclear facilities very accurately with their Shahab-3B missile, and Iran can accurately attack US forces in the Persian Gulf, and US ships in the Gulf with Chinese supplied C-802's, and US aircraft with the S-300 SAM system, now the US would of course win in that war but I suspect it won't be peaches and cream...let's say.
     
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  5. Brian Foley REFUSE - RESIST Valued Senior Member

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    I have ! Whats the big deal ? I kicked your ass deal with it !
    Im sorry did you miss my reply to your questions on page 1 of this thread yesterday ? If you have I will repost them . I mean you wouldnt be ignoring them now would you ?

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    Yep , just goes to show 12 years of schooling just aint enough ....................
     
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  7. Stokes Pennwalt Nuke them from orbit. Registered Senior Member

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    Explain please. In your own words, of course.

    So if the United States still commanded this strength you are insisting it lost, what would be the salient differences in its foreign policy with respects to disarmament and continued containment (or an alternative?) of North Korea?
     
  8. Undecided Banned Banned

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    America is you ignoramus

    Brian if your going to insult make you don’t insult your own intelligence along the way…may I ask you what the hell you are attempting to say here?

    do you thisnk America companies are that stupid to just give their money away ?

    Firstly I think you are illiterate, as you said at the bottom of another post:

    Yep , just goes to show 12 years of schooling just aint enough ....................

    Said your mother…because I cannot understand what you are saying. Secondly what I “thisnk” is that American companies aren’t throwing their money away what they are doing is investing in China to develop the Chinese market to build their brands in China and to suppress local Chinese business. The fact that China is exporting much from her TNC’s is basically a transference of wealth to China from the United States, as shown by the level of FDI coming in which by definition is either siphoned off from profits, or loans so obviously the TNC’s are stupid according to your argumentations.

    The money US companies save in manufacturingexpences gets passed on to the US consumer and manufacturing tax incentives made out of China saves them a bundle of money . And outsourcing their work to Chinese factories puts disposal of dirty and poisonous industrial waste on Chinese hands and believe waste disposal in our affluent west is a very costly business .

    I don’t see the argument here, how is this proving to anyone that China isn’t becoming a world economic power? That’s industrialization it’s dirty, it always starts with low wages, and it always is dependant on trade. How do you think England became an industrial country? Or the United States? The list goes on, every country on the road to industrialization offers low wages, a large surplus population, and usually agricultural self-sufficiency, and China has all that. As the world economy got progressively larger, as did the major industrializing states. When the world economy was small the British were big enough to industrialize, and now that the world economy is HUGE it takes a HUGE country to do that job and China is doing that. So apart from insulting me, you have nothing.

    Because China is a corrupt third world nation with unbelievably cheap labour and incredibly lax environmental laws that actively entice US/Euro corporations .

    For whatever reason it maybe you didn’t deny it, and I proved my point. So where is your argument? Oh I know insulting me, not arguing positions. Incredibly cheap labour has always been the driving force behind industrial development, and corruption to an extent as well when the US was industrializing in the late 1800’s it was uber-corrupt.

    The Chinese economy is a lay by economy , just like the South East Asian Tiger economies prior the 1997 economic meltdown . If China shut down for a year American and European business would move elsewhere like to India , that other 1.2 billion cheap labour pool and investment .

    The problem is that they can’t, because they shipped their capital plants to China. If you ever took an economics course (which I have) you would know that Capital can only be changed in the long run, the only things these companies can do is pull out the money out of China, but the actual production facilities would be in China and would not be able to leave. Thus these companies would not have massive parts of their production producing, and since the capital cannot move these companies would go belly up. Wal-Mart surely would, it is the world’s 5 importer of Chinese goods, and Wal-Mart has made it almost mandatory for a company to invest in China. America would go into an inflation spiral due to the lack of supply of goods, and with the already huge deficits and the price of oil going up and not coming down anytime soon, and most importantly the Chinese are buying up excess American dollars, if no one is buying that money the money supply would go up and the US dollar would collapse. America would suffer greatly, because China is America’s inflationary warrior.

    It was by American choice to go to China to exploit Chinas cheap labour and lax environmental laws . Very easily those same American TNC’s could move to India to exploit that nations even cheaper labour and even more lax environmental laws .

    As I showed it cannot, take basic economics you would know this.

    Brazil is another region US TNC’s could move to no problem as well to produce those cheap goods its as simple as that .

    Brazil’s labour costs compared to China is very high…

    No problem ! Dollar-based global oil trade now gives the United States carte blanche to print dollars without sparking inflation , to fund huge expenses on wars, military build-ups, and consumer spending, as well as cut taxes and run up huge trade deficits.

    That wasn’t true in the late 60’s early 70’s when America’s grip on oil was even greater then it is now. The US should be in inflationary gaps, but it isn’t due to the depression of American wages due to competition from China, and the cheap goods from China. If China is closed the US would face shortages, and thus prices would spiral upwards.

    Almost 2/3s of the world's currency reserves are kept in dollars more than 4/5 of all currency transactions, more than half of the world's exports, and all loans from the IMF are denominated in dollars.

    Which isn’t good…if u didn’t know.

    As these things create demand for the dollar and shore up its value, oil exporters are the more willing to accept payment in dollars .

    Then why is the US dollar sliding further and further? Seems to go against the grain, the US having a currency appreciation is the worst thing for the US right now because it would mean the US would be importing more then it could ever really afford:

    http://www.economist.com/agenda/displayStory.cfm?story_id=3732459

    Read this…please.

    I hardly think China defaulting on its loans to America would send it belly up .

    What would is this:

    Firstly China is owed more from the US then China owes to the US so it will never default on its loans, the quote I presented to you was from a amazing book called “Globalization and its discontents” by the leader of the Council of economic advisors under the Clinton administration Joseph E. Stiglitz who discussed in great detail the East Crisis of 1997/98, so I hope you know damn well what happened in that crisis because I had to for my class. The quote proves my point to the tee, the US shouldn’t fear so much about paying back the debt because it never will what the US should fear is if the Chinese stop funding the US economy, and the quote says why. Don’t start battle you can’t win Brian.

    The Chinese own the factories that produce US goods to be re-exported back to America so there is no risk , in other words America business interests can up and leave at a moments notice .

    If I invested $100,000 in a factory (didn’t own it) and didn’t have capital to build the goods myself but depended on the factory to provide the capital to make my goods, and the countries borders close…by definition I would lose $100,000 because the factory would go belly up. So in essence as would $600+ billion worth of western investment, the west put its eggs in one basket and we will pay the consequences as a result…didn’t ur mother ever tell you not to do that?

    All American corporations have to do is simply overnight place orders for production with Indonesian manufacturers or beef up production at its already established Mexican plants . And as always there is the Indian option this is the 21st century events now happen overnight .

    It won’t happen overnight because those countries as well are becoming dependant on Chinese goods…also how are they going to invest if they aren’t selling anything?

    There I raped your argument happy now?
     
  9. Undecided Banned Banned

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    Explain please. In your own words, of course.

    What’s there to explain, u tell me you’re the expert? According to all the sources I’ve read it is superior and the S-400 and the S-500 are RAPING the Patriot. Russia has always maintained a lead on the US on missile technology especially SAM’s. What I want to know stokes is why you were “lol”-ing if the S-300 is better then the Patriot? Frankly the weakness of the Patriot system was shown in the fact that you were more likely to be shot down by a Patriot then an Iraqi in the war.

    So if the United States still commanded this strength you are insisting it lost, what would be the salient differences in its foreign policy with respects to disarmament and continued containment (or an alternative?) of North Korea?

    The difference would be putting more troops in SK not taking them out, supporting US troop levels in East Asia to counter not only NK but the PRC which is challenging American hegemony in the region. The US should be able to talk to NK with strength the US isn’t showing that strength and with Rumsfeld saying US forces are getting out of Korea or moving out of the DMZ it shows NK that the US is getting weaker because the troop movement is a result of the troop stresses due to the dwindling amount of men available in the “war on terror”. Oh now it is estimated that NK has 15 nukes:

    http://www.globalsecurity.org/org/news/2005/050216-dprk-nukes.htm
     
  10. Stokes Pennwalt Nuke them from orbit. Registered Senior Member

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    Your burden of proof, not mine. But since you admit I'm the expert I assume you'll take my word for it when I say you are wrong, and that the S-300 is a sack of ass with wings. If you would like me to explain something in detail, ask me and I will.

    I've been over this with you before; the troop drawdown from the UNSK garrison was a long time in coming, initially proposed in the mid-1990s.
     
  11. Undecided Banned Banned

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    Your burden of proof, not mine. But since you admit I'm the expert I assume you'll take my word for it when I say you are wrong, and that the S-300 is a sack of ass with wings. If you would like me to explain something in detail, ask me and I will.

    If you want…but one could argue that the Patriot sucks ass too…

    I've been over this with you before; the troop drawdown from the UNSK garrison was a long time in coming, initially proposed in the mid-1990s.

    But not when NK was known to be developing nukes stokes, those are two different eras. The US is rewarding NK without the US realizing it.
     
  12. Brian Foley REFUSE - RESIST Valued Senior Member

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    No , you just gave me personal opinions not an argument too counter my answers to your requests .

    Now here is a lesson for you , look at the deal China was offered to join the WTO, look at the requirements the West wants . Can you join the dots undecided ?
    And guess what ? China is beginning to implement those requirements right now .
    Your superpower is on the verge of becoming a possession of western Finance !
    G A M E O V E R
     
  13. Undecided Banned Banned

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    No , you just gave me personal opinions not an argument too counter my answers to your requests .

    Which were supported by facts...and obviously they were so good u couldn't rebut anything I said. Until you do, I won't bother replying to your innate idiocy.
     
  14. Brian Foley REFUSE - RESIST Valued Senior Member

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    No they were not , you gave no sources , the only link you gave was for an economist article which was completely and utterly unrelated to the argument . I on the other hand have fully supported my arguments with factual source links .
    You have proven nothing I have answered all of your questions and arguments and you have ended your debate with personal opinions .
    TRANSLATION Im Fucked , I cant back up my bullshit argument so like a coward I will run for cover ...............
    C H I C K E N S H I T
     
  15. Odin'Izm Procrastinator Registered Senior Member

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    All this swearing is this what political debate is turning into???
     
  16. Brian Foley REFUSE - RESIST Valued Senior Member

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    If you follow the line of debate here you will see undecided has twice placed before me questions to which he has challenged me to answer too which I have answered . The first lot of answers I gave him he ignores giving full answers and the second lot of answers I give to his daring he completely ignores ! Its frustrating Odin , it wastes my time and makes me angry .
     
  17. goofyfish Analog By Birth, Digital By Design Valued Senior Member

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    So you just ignore him as many here already do.

    :m: Peace.
     
  18. Brian Foley REFUSE - RESIST Valued Senior Member

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    Maranatha.........
     
  19. Stokes Pennwalt Nuke them from orbit. Registered Senior Member

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    And I am still waiting for you to try.

    How does a drawdown of the UNSK garrison constitute a tangible reward for the PRK?

    Also, is this your monthly LOL USA SUX LMAO thread for February, or for March? Or are you going to grace us with more than one per month this winter?
     
  20. Repo Man Valued Senior Member

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    He's on vacation Stokes. But give him a break. He does come up with some interesting stuff. Just a little too excitable.
     
  21. Odin'Izm Procrastinator Registered Senior Member

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    I think undecided is funny im not ignoring him... I came back in a bad mood and hung over read a psot and laughed off the mood... good for rainy days

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    But brian I get your point, but also notice this... when you make a strong argument the oponent always asks for proof which shows he has some trouble with making an inteligent answer... other than that I agree with both of you on different terms...

    And stokes, the S 300 is a good missile plus a few electrical faults... the patriot has almost the same electrical faults and no fail safe system thats why it hits friendly aircraft. the only problem they might have is the radar used to acompany them... if you have a scilent system then its a good setup otherwise it will just get fucked by a smart missile.
     
  22. Stokes Pennwalt Nuke them from orbit. Registered Senior Member

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    Alright, I'll stop beating around the bush and offer up my experience with the S300. We've tried it. It sucks. I will explain.

    There is a giant, old, spooky looking hangar filled with spooky looking men at Ft. Bliss in Texas (home of the US Army's Air Defense Artillery Division) called the "Threat Assessment Division". You can probably guess what they do there. Of course, their mission highly classified mainly due to the nature of their acquisitions, but I doubt they had much trouble getting a SAM system that has a goddamn sales webpage (I trust they checked the feedback and/or reseller rating before they bought, though)

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    We grabbed a bunch, and ran them through their paces. Here is an unclassified general summary: Half the rounds never left the tube, a quarter detonated prematurely or went ballistic, and a quarter got somewhere in the general vicinity of the target (which was a slow moving subsonic BQM-34F Firebee drone). 20% detonated relatively close to the target. None hit to kill. This compared to the PAC-3 Patriot, which can consistently (unclassified HTK rate of 85%) take out a two foot long RV going Mach 3+ at 10,000m ceiling in a HTK - slamming into it without using chemical explosives. Next week I can try to dig up the sanitized AAR's from the opening days of OIF in early 2003, and post them if anybody would like to dispute these facts.

    Also, there is a gulf of confusion regarding the Patriot's fratricide accounts. There were two instances of fratricide (one with a downed RAF Tornado and another a F/A-18C) but both incidents were the result of pilot error. The Tornado and the F-18 were both flying outside of established safe transit corridors set up by the air warfare commander to ensure that our own airplanes wouldn't fly "down range" of our own air defense assets. They flew into the "fire zones" of the Patriot batteries. This would not have doomed them had they not committed another egregious operational error. Both aircraft were also not squawking the correct IFF authentication algorithm - a coded response to convince friendly weapon systems that you are, in fact, one of the good guys, so even if you do end up in their sites, you will not be fired upon. Once they crossed into the fire zones, the battery realized something wasn't right, and popped off an IFF interrogation - and got the wrong answer back. Therefore, because the aircraft's altitude, speed, and heading resembled that of a TBM, the Patriot battery, in weapons-free mode (the only way to operate it due to the short timeframes of a TBM engagement being outside of human capacity) prosecuted what it believed to be a hostile target. It was a Mach 5+ Patriot ABM versus a subsonic air breathing aircraft. You can guess who won.

    Events such as these have actually always been a very big concern in the development of integrated air defense systems, because their capability makes them necessarily complex to employ effectively. Without a man actively in the loop the potential for friendly fire clusterfucks increases drastically. Airspace battle management is a daunting task and with newer network-centric autonomous systems like the Patriot, there will be problems if people don't triple-check their work. There was also a third blue-on-blue incident involving a F-16, but the F-16 destroyed the Patriot radar with a HARM when its threat receiver indicated that it was about to removed from the sky.

    While certainly tragic, none of the aforementioned events were the fault of the Patriot weapon system. In fact, it functioned perfectly. The men in the loop did not.

    EDIT: Shit, Undecided is banned. For what it's worth he and I had a brief PM exchange not too long ago, initiated by him, in which we brokered a peace and agreed to engage each other more productively in the future. Despite our usual hypergolic nature I can't say I won't miss him.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2005
  23. Undecided Banned Banned

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    No , you just gave me personal opinions not an argument too counter my answers to your requests .

    Of course Brian by defeintion I gave u my own personal opinions, if I didn’t I would be saying anything now would I? So apart from that captain obvious, by definition as well opinions are arguments, and I supported my opinions with sources, and easily verifiable economic theory. Sorry but I am not getting an A in economics for no reason, so if you want to talk about legitimacy who is it going to be? Me or you? I have the marks to back me up do you?

    Now here is a lesson for you , look at the deal China was offered to join the WTO, look at the requirements the West wants . Can you join the dots undecided ?

    Yes I can, those dots are of laughter, do you really think China is doing all that? China isn’t really following those edicts by the WTO, and it was predicted long before in 2000:

    http://www.businessweek.com/2000/00_23/b3684109.htm

    The Chinese still have at least 50% of the economy under central government control, and has not gotten rid of the subsidies to farmers, or cut down tariff barriers to the WTO’s liking, China is still a closed economy, and China is still for all intents a purposes a transitional economy. I admit China is adopting the policies that she wants, that’s something that you have to understand, this is going on Chinese terms not WTO’s terms. China is too powerful now of a economic player to push around, look at China’s currency peg for instance which is obviously the most naked defiance of the international financial community. China’s changing on Chinese terms, this isn’t some third world country which has no choice, China doesn’t depend on international capital she has $ 5 trillion in the financial assets, and over $ 600 billion in FOREX, China has net zero public debt, and her reserves are just growing. So nice try Brian but you aren’t fooling anyone, especially not me.

    About China’s inequality, I am currently finishing an entire project on that so don’t even try to pretend as if you think you know more then me on that subject, ok. I read at least 3 World Bank reports and now I have to write three essay’s, if you behave better then you have in the past I will share them with you only if you stop acting like you have been acting.

    Your superpower is on the verge of becoming a possession of western Finance !
    G A M E O V E R


    Game over? Maybe, but surely not for me my analysis has stood up the test of professors and Teaching assistants I think it can stand up to you. Frankly my profs. Seem to agree with me…so all of you who seem to be laughing at me, it just shows how ignorant you really are. Good day.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 11, 2005

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