Always fascinated by the alleged ability of some indigenous tribes across the globe to do away with their enemies by condemning them to death, wishing them death, and succeeding, I was lucky to watch some incidents of ill-wishing (although not death). Then I started to wonder what is going on in the bodies (not minds!) of the victims. My interest was heightened when some time back a strange thing happened to a colleague. He went to the hospital with his wife, because she was sick and decided once he was there to get a thorough health checkup. Shockingly, he was told to have cancer. When he came home, he went to bed, started to feel bad and died within four days. I am sure many of you have heard things like that, and it is quite well discussed what is going on in the minds of people who give up on themselves (my assumption is, of course, that the cases of distance killing are closely related to this). But what goes on in their bodies? How can the power of an untrained mind be sufficient to bring a whole organism to a complete shut-down?
there is a book called "the men who stare at goats" about a the First Eearth Battalion, which had martial arts gurus who claimed to be able to kill people by looking at them try and kill goats as a possible weapon for the US military. its pretty stupid, but the gurus claim they really have killed the goats. however, they just happen to cut away from the goats with the video camer just before saying "its down." interesting idea, but I think its all crap. maybe you can psyc someone out, but nothing supernatural I am sure.
I wonder why some completely evil dictators of the past haven't been stricken? Surely millions of people wish them ill...if a trained mind can bring down a person, millions of untrained could do the same?
I think the phenomenon is physiological; you make someone stressed out because they think there is something to the voodoo, and that is what hurts them. If someone wishes you ill and you never know it, I don’t think it would have any affect.
Cato: on the expense of being side-tracked : yes, in societies where people strongly believe in voodoo or other forms of psychic interference, they suspect voodoo (I just want to call it that, but in its broadest sense) when they observe certain things going on with their bodies and minds. This can be a string (not one only) of exceptionally bad dreams, unusual dreams, weakness without organic reason (people, at least in the towns, generally DO consult doctors before suspecting voodoo), pain etc.. Then they go to a traditional healer or shaman. Voodoo is only ONE possible source for their symptoms the shaman may tell them. In the country I live in, shamans concentrate their powers to healing rather than identifying and fighting the one who allegedly caused all this. So it is certainly not true that you absolutely have to be informed about a person who cast a spell on you. However, unconsciously, they might. Because as believers in the voodoo, the possibility of being distance-killed is always there for them. So, yeah, it all starts with psychology, but then an organic reaction sets in. What is it? What bodily function is affected first? Is the pain these people feel real or only existing in their minds (like phantom pain after an amputation)? To your former posting: Yes, they can be psyched out. I am not interested in more anecdotal "evidence", I got enough of that here (just for your info: those who boast about their abilities are usually not worth examining. Those skills, if they exist, are extremely secretive.). My question was: what happens in their bodies. Take the case of my colleague then. His death was triggered by him knowing he was going to die soon. Interestingly, as soon as he knew it, his health faltered rapidly. So again: what is it that happens in your organism that is affected by your will to let go? As for the dictators: there is more than one legend around of kings being killed by voodoo. The dictators of the present hire an army of the best black magicians, healers, astrologers? but most importantly: THEY DO NOT GIVE UP ON LIFE.
Mr.X Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!, Sure, the fact that cancer sometimes accelerates in its final stages could also be a reason my colleague died so quickly. However, I think it's indicative that he went to the hospital a healthy man and came back feeling so sick he went to bed immediately after his arrival home and never got up again. Still, I agree, this could be attributed to the nature of his cancer, but to me, that would be an even bigger coincidence than concluding he died basically because he gave up. Yep. That's exactly my point (just the other way round Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!). So WHAT really happens in the body? WHAT causes the immune system (let's presume that is the part that breaks down first) to fail so fatally? I can understand how positive feelings/thoughts can strengthen the immune system but have problems with the opposite: why do all systems fail us (or, if you like that better, seem to fail us) just because we think differently than before??? That is also why I chose a negative example rather than the positive one you mention in your text. The tragedy in the case of my colleague is that the diagnosis was never verified at all... No autopsies are done here and the body is burned immediately after death. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Hi Mr. X, I think I start anew. Maybe I was not clear enough in my question. Next try: Forget about distance killing, forget about my colleague. New angle: Whenever something happens that brings our body off balance, it counter-acts, right? If we get something in the eye, if we catch some germs, suffer a wound --- all this triggers a response of the body that aims at bringing the body back to balance. One could think that our organism is set to work towards equilibrium (or health). However, if the mind of the body in question is set to positive mode, the process of restoring health is likely to be successful. Vice versa: negative thoughts are likely to disturb this restoration process. Now my question: What is going on in ourselves to make a mere thought so powerful? When does a mere thought translate into a measurable physical reaction? What would be the first measurable physical reaction to be observed? One possible start for an answer would be in your text here: I translate this as follows (simply put): The equilibrium in our bodies is NOT a neutral stage per se, but a stage that is kept in balance by a normal morphological function AND non-negative thoughts (or let's say attitude; I hope you know what I mean). When ONE of those two fails (e.g. you are shocked by a diagnosis of cancer, a death sentence from your voodoo-mama etc.) then the balance is disturbed considerably, thus causing the body to fail. An interesting thought. I was of the opinion that our health is just kind of a neutral stage that can be influenced either positively (by thinking positive) or negatively (by thinking negative). But the way you seem to see it makes more sense. Because if you think like I used to do before, then you arrive at my question: how can negative thinking have such a devastating effect? If you think that it is not the presence of a negative thought, but rather the absence of vital positive thinking (necessary to keep that precarious state of health), everything falls in place. But then comes the other question: why doesn't our body counter-act that like it would with an infected wound? Why isn't our body wired in such a way that a very big unbalance caused by psychological stress is triggering a release of a hormone that fights those negative thoughts? Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Hi Mr. X, Yo, now I get the feeling my question is understood. The example of a manic depression was very good for illustration. Mood influences organism and vice-versa (another example would be PMS, Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!.). However, there is a difference between manic depression and what I am aiming at with my questions: okay, when such a person is in a depressed state, he may kill himself, but are the mood swings extreme enough for the body to shut down on its own within days? I have never heard of such a case, have you? Also, there somehow seems to be a qualitative difference between a common negative thought and the true wish to give up. With TRUE here I mean that this must not even be conscious. I doubt that my colleague WANTED (in a conscious way) to die! Still everybody got the definite impression that he truly had given up. (Sorry that is awfully difficult to explain.) Then, on the other hand, you have people that are terminally ill and say they want to die, but they do not. Next question: is it really like it seems; ARE there really those two kinds of negative thoughts (seemingly negative and devastatingly negative)? And, if there really is such a difference, how does the organism "know" what line it should follow: negative thinking on the outside (lamenting how I want to die), but generally positive "wiring" on the inside? Optimism on the outside, or the deep-rooted knowledge I cannot make it? Aaargh, I just read through this stuff again and am not sure anybody will understand what I mean. Well, let's give it a try. Ciao sparkle PS: Oh man, you edited your post? Wow, but the OLD could have stayed, no problem with that Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
If a cancer cell is to become immortal, it must have some way to transcend the limit imposed upon it by telomeres. The only thing I can think of is that it finds a way to replace its telomeres. Telomeres could conceivably be generated as RNA by cellular DNA and reverse transcriptase could conceivably write these back to single strand DNA to attach to the ends of the telomeres. Signs of disease can easily be the signs of the activation of healing, containment, defense, and coping mechanisms. If people can think themselves sick they can think themselves well. Even if a genuine psychic power is involved in distant killing, there is a chance for the victim if he can find a power that is stronger. The killing power would be negative. It would either have to be delivered at close range, strongly reinforced, using multiple attackers (like a village full of people who are convinced that a man is cursed) or it would have to enlist the victim's cooperation and get him to do it to himself. Ideally, an attack would include every means at the attacker's disposal. An Englishman in an African village would be less vulnerable. Disbelief is not necessarily a defense. Denying the existence of a thing is often embracing that thing's existence, giving it attention, and giving it power. The Englishman's own delusions are of a different nature, so it would be harder to get into his head, but a witch doctor can definitely find ways. It doesn't take a Svengali or a Rasputin to figure out which mental buttons to push.
