The "Gulag of Our Time"

Discussion in 'Politics' started by TheMidnight12AM, Jun 23, 2005.

  1. jlocke Registered Senior Member

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    So you believe that al Quaeda got their people into a specific detention facility and told them to cry wolf? And you think that that is more likely than many prisoners and guards testifying to having witnessed and been a part of 'torture' in this detention facility?
     
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  3. TheMidnight12AM The Midnight Registered Senior Member

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    I didn't realize Gitmo guards were reporting it as well. You have any links to a news story or reputable web site where this information is?
     
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  5. jlocke Registered Senior Member

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    I do not, I'll have to google it later. My point was that just because the federal government thought it could escape from having to follow its own principles by holding prisoners "offshore" of the United States, does NOT mean that the US has the right to abuse prisoners and break it's own laws. This sort of behavior would never be allowed to happen in the US, so why is it allowed to happen in a US controlled 'prison camp'. It is interesting to note that only 4, count em, 4 prisoners have actually been tried in court. A decision in none of these 4 trials has not been reached because the courts decided that due proccess was not upheld properly in Gitmo.

    The Supreme Court has challenged the US army as to their trying to pull this offand the issue still has not been resolved. I strongly believe that the US army should be held accountable for what happens there.

    JLocke
     
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  7. TheMidnight12AM The Midnight Registered Senior Member

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    Okay. My basic premise is I doubt highly what the media says, what the government says and what prisoners would say until hard evidence linking all three surfaces. With the contradicting reports, I tend to believe the media is sensationalizing it for ratings and the prisoners are doing it for anti-American sentiment. If the government (guards) is saying it is going on as welll, then there might be cause for me to change my stance, though my essential idea is that it doesn't constitute gulag torture, whether it occurs or not.
     
  8. jlocke Registered Senior Member

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  9. Thersites Registered Senior Member

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    It seems that that is true of US military prison guards and interrogators, actually. It is also an excellent method of making new enemies where there were none before. Possibly the cunning ploy is to make every muslim hate the USA; as a result there will be no difficulty in telling whether someone is an enemy of the USA.
     
  10. Clockwood You Forgot Poland Registered Senior Member

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    Like most muslim countries give a damn about human rights for their own prisoners. The only thing they are upset about is that we, the infidel scum, were the ones supposedly doing it. Heck, they were a thousand times more upset about the treatment of a freaking book than any human being. That pisses me off to no end.
     
  11. Thersites Registered Senior Member

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    So only people who are concerned about human rights ought to have human rights?
     
  12. spuriousmonkey Banned Banned

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    I guess we shouldn't be too upset then about western 'civilians' caught by 'terrorists' in countries such as Iraq that are executed. After all, the 'civilians' were 'spies'. They don't need to be treated humanely. And as for the western 'soldiers' they can be treated in any way they seem fit, because they are all these crazy christian fundamentalists.
     
  13. otheadp Banned Banned

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    So only people who are concerned about human rights ought to have human rights?
    that's an interesting topic for debate.

    i say if you torture, you deserve to be tortured

    spuriousmonkey, that's a twisted and extreme thing to say. Nick Berg did not deserve his fate, even if he was a spy reporting directly to Porter Goss or whomever
     
  14. jlocke Registered Senior Member

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    I'm thinking that SpuriousMonkey was just making a point...

    Thersites, that idea would work if it was ONLY Muslims that were getting pissed off at us for the torture thing and the whole war in general...you know, the rest of the world...


    I'm really hoping you were drunk when you wrote that line...

    But just in case you weren't, heres an idea: A man tortures someone, so someone tortures him for it, and then he is tortured for it....ahh its a vicious cycle....
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2005
  15. Thersites Registered Senior Member

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    So the guards at Abu Ghraib ought to be tortured in their turn? When- and how- do we stop?

    Many of the people picked up and held prisoner by the US just had the bad luck to annoy someone or live in the wrong place or just be damned fools. The policy seems to be to degrade and humiliate them and to insult them just for the hell of it. There doesn't seem to have been any attempt to actually interrogate them and get info out of them [and torture isn't much good for that, anyway]. All that's happened is that they-deliberately- and other muslims round the world- as a side effect- have been insulted. It may be stupid to get worked up over a copy of a book, but it's even more stupid to offend a lot of people needlessly, when you want their help.
     
  16. crazy151drinker Registered Senior Member

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    I suggest we live up to everyones expectations and start executing the bastards.
     
  17. spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

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    We have no idea wether the prisoners at Gitmo "hate America", and I don't think we should assume so. Certainly, after being mistreated, they will resent America, but that doesn't mean that they are lying. The FBI has reported about the same kinds of abuses, so I think that gives them some credibility. If we are unable, in a wartime situation, to determine for sure who has fought against us, then at least detain the prisoners indefinitely in a humane manner.

    It is my understanding that most republicans think the prisoners are not being tortured, so that begs the question, will other kinds of mistreatment that fall short of torture be effective at all for gaining information?

    The effectiveness of torture is questionable, so what about the effectiveness of mere discomfort? Doesn't this policy create enemies while giving us nothing reliable in return?
     
  18. otheadp Banned Banned

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    So the guards at Abu Ghraib ought to be tortured in their turn?
    yes. but in the exactly same fashion. i'm sure they went thru worse in college (or in their trailer park)

    A man tortures someone, so someone tortures him for it, and then he is tortured for it....ahh its a vicious cycle....
    once there is an action and an equal reaction, it's done.
    also, i'll bring it up again: in the ticking bomb scenario torture is justified.
     
  19. jlocke Registered Senior Member

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    Otheadp, you are missing the point. Equal and opposite doesn't apply here, because, once there is an action and a reaction, then that reaction requires a reaction, and etc.
     
  20. Baron Max Registered Senior Member

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    Well, it probably won't cause any more uproar than we've seen from kicking a stupid book! So maybe you have something here ...we shoot 'em all then AFTER THAT no one can say we're mistreating any prisoners, huh? ...LOL!

    Baron Max
     
  21. jlocke Registered Senior Member

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    Well, I'm sure them having the same attitude you do about someone else religious book, which they happen to take very seriously, has nothing to do with the problem...

    JLocke
     
  22. Baron Max Registered Senior Member

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    Well, they do the same with our bible, our flag, they cut of the heads of our people, they call us infidels and threaten to kill us all, they ......well, a whole bunch of things. So, no, I don't see it as a problem.

    Baron Max
     
  23. jlocke Registered Senior Member

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