Hitler was a professed Christian

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by Cris, Feb 17, 2002.

  1. Ender Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    294
    Wrong Turn

    Concider this

    The ability to question free will has to say someting. As i write this i question myself, am I writing this because i want to demonstrate my free will, or was this predestined by a 'GOD' or is this just a result of a previous cause?

    If you review the history of just about everything, you will relize that everything is cause and effect.

    I have heard it said that if the Romans had lost the Punic Wars, then the roman Republic would have endured, thus resulting in Ceaser never taking over Rome.

    Personally this is a direct result that we have no free will, but that everything in a direct result of causes.:bugeye:
     
  2. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  3. TruthSeeker Fancy Virtual Reality Monkey Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    15,162
    Ender,
    If you want, you can lift your leg up... and this won't be the will of God...

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!


    That's your free will...
    Yes... God acts in a kind of action-reaction way...

    The Truth is that we make the plans and God guide us. As it's said in Proverbs 16:9 :
    "9 The mind of man plans his way, But the LORD directs his steps."

    Blessings,
    Nelson
     
  4. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  5. Ender Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    294
    You missed the point

    TruthSeaker,

    Concider this

    When I was writeing this last post, why did i "decide" to write that? Was it a direct effect of the previous posts of did i actually decide to do that? IT goes the same, with things like time. Does time slow down and speed up? We may never know because we exist in time.

    IN order to examine if we have free will or not we must exist in a world rthat both has free will, and doesn't have free will.

    If we exist in a world where time goes in to two different speeds then we would be able to look across the barrier, and see things happening mush slower or faster. Right?

    Also i don't thing I believe in a god, or anything like that, so...

    Either we have free will, or our actions are determined by other causes, hence cause and effect
     
  6. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  7. TruthSeeker Fancy Virtual Reality Monkey Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    15,162
    Where to find Truth...

    Ender,
    If you pay attention, God is your "action-reaction"...

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!



    You decide what you will do but, certainly, as you can control only yourself, others will have another decision and this decision will directly affect your reactions... like answering this post...

    As the conception of reality changes with each person, no Truth can be found between two people different opinions. The Truth can only be found within yourself because all your actions and thoughts towards the "outside" world will cause a different reaction thus never finding any Truth.

    As Zen people says...
    He who travels around the world meets with confusion.
    He who stays at home is wise.

    Need interpretation? Try to get your own vision...

    Blessings,
    Nelson
     
  8. Yes! Registered Member

    Messages:
    15
    Truthseeker said:

    If you want, you can lift your leg up... and this won't be the will of God...

    and:

    "You decide what you will do but, certainly, as you can control only yourself, others will have another decision and this decision will directly affect your reactions... like answering this post... "

    Sure I can decide what I do, but the act of decision is simply neural activity in my brain sending messages to my muscles setting into motion my action. The neural activity was a reaction to what was entered into my brain through my senses, my reaction was just that, a reaction. My brain proccessed the info and spit out a reaction. Of course this all seems like thought to me but really I'm just typing the automated response coming from my brain's neural network.

    Now Cris said:

    However, if everything is a relationship of cause and effect going back to the beginning of time, then yes, it would appear we have no real free will. But if the universe is infinite, i.e. has no starting boundary then there would be no original cause. In which case is everything truly deterministic?

    Assuming the universe is infinite, then yeah, things are not truly deterministic as there never was an original cause. But, even without an original cause, every action is simply a reaction to some other reaction. So maybe no original cause set everything into motion. The existance of the cosmos wasn't neccesarily pre-determined, but from a human perspective, everything is just a reaction.
     
  9. TruthSeeker Fancy Virtual Reality Monkey Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    15,162
    "Yes!",

    Surely this is the definition of free will...

    Blessings,
    Nelson
     
  10. Yes! Registered Member

    Messages:
    15
    Free will

    Truth,

    I guess I should elaborate the automated response coming from my neural network. My brain, and therefore my thoughts and actions, formed from a combination of outside influences such as genetics, my upbringing etc. Therefore although my thoughts appear to be my own, they are really a result of the past. And, assuming Godly creation, the past was a controlled action (assuming God has control over everything at creation, as "creation" would imply), so my actions are controlled. Therefore I have no free will.



    But, sure, I do control myself from my perspective. So I'm in contro legally , just not metaphysically...
     
  11. Cris In search of Immortality Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,199
    Truthseeker,

    Omniscience = perfect knowledge of all events, past, present and future.

    If your god is omniscient then from the beginning of time, long before you were born, he will have perfect knowledge of every event, even the tiniest detail, and of everything you will ever do throughout your entire life. This must be true for the claim of omniscience to be valid.

    This means that when you come to make any type of decision then you have absolutely no choice or free will in the matter since your decision has already been completely pre-determined at the beginning of time.

    If an event is known before it happens, with perfect knowledge that it will happen, then that event has to occur, there can be no deviation. The event has been effectively pre-determined, and if the event is one of your perceived choices then equally you have no choice but to do what has been pre-determined. If God has decided you will go to heaven then you have no choice in the matter, if you are going to be eternally tortured in hell then that is also the pleasure of God and there is nothing you can do about it.

    So for example, your perceived decision to choose Jesus as your savior was already known to God at the beginning of time. This is not a matter of him looking forward in time to see what you will decide but perfect pre-knowledge of what you will do. Since he is also the alleged creator of everything, then your perceived decision was not yours but his.

    The only way you could have free will (ignoring the philosophy of determinism for the moment) is for your god not to be omniscient and not to be the creator, but if that were true then he could not be omnipotent. And without those powers he could not really be called godlike, i.e. he does not exist.

    So the only way you can make sense of the important Christian choice of choosing Jesus or not and calling that free will is for the Christian God not to exist, and hence Jesus being a deity is an equal fantasy.

    Cris
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2002
  12. anna f Registered Member

    Messages:
    16
    What a brilliant argument for the defense - "I could not help it".."it was not my fault"... "God made me do it"...

    some cynics call it a "cop-out".

    I soooo envie people who believe in an "omnipresent, omniscient and omnipotent" god.

    Unfortunately, I feel closer to the concept of "Deus Abscondis" (although I'm not very sure of my Latin endings)...


    A man said to the universe:
    "Sir I exist!"
    "However," replied the universe,
    "The fact has not created in me
    A sense of obligation."

    (Stephen Crane (1871-1900)
     
  13. tony1 Jesus is Lord Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,279
    *Originally posted by Cris
    In either case a religious factor and irrational beliefs in the supernatural led to enormous evil.
    *

    Given that you yourself have both a Christian and Hindu background, plus the fact that you held and hold irrational beliefs in the supernatural, what enormous evil do you have planned?

    *Originally posted by Yes!
    Of course this all seems like thought to me but really I'm just typing the automated response coming from my brain's neural network.
    *

    What you're typing doesn't seem like thought to any of us, either.

    *Originally posted by Cris
    Since he is also the alleged creator of everything, then your perceived decision was not yours but his.
    *

    However, a person still has to make the decision.
    Furthermore, the decision is made without foreknowledge on the part of the chooser.
    Further yet, the choice is like the question concerning Schrodinger's cat; you won't know how things turn out until later yourself.

    Thus, if you choose one thing, that was preknown.
    If you choose another, then that was preknown.
    Either way, you won't know what was preknown until you choose.
     
  14. Cris In search of Immortality Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,199
    Tony1,

    Not if they have been programmed to make that decision.

    Yes, as with all decisions made by those without the power of omniscience. I don’t see you what point you are trying to make here.

    The issue is not whether you can predict the future but whether the future has already been mapped out. While we cannot see what we are going to do in the future an omniscient creator would have perfect knowledge of exactly what we are going to do.

    You are clutching at thin air here. It doesn’t matter whether you have pre-knowledge or not. The ultimate result from your example is that only ONE path would have been taken, and an omniscient creator would have known the outcome from the beginning of time. Under these conditions your perception of having free will must be only an illusion because you will be powerless to do anything other than what God had already decided for you at the beginning of time. You are simply following a mindless pre-programmed series of actions, down to the tiniest detail.

    If you were somehow to do anything different to that which God had pre-determined then God could not be omniscient. Or IOW if you have free will, i.e. your actions have not been pre-determined; then God cannot be omniscient, and cannot exist as defined.

    Cris
     
  15. tony1 Jesus is Lord Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,279
    *Originally posted by Cris
    Not if they have been programmed to make that decision.
    *

    Oddly enough, that looks like it would be true, however, even if the person were "programmed" to make the decision, the person has not been programmed to have foreknowledge of their own decision.

    Furthermore, even a computer program is programmed with "if-then" statements, yet the program doesn't know which path will be taken until run-time and until the decision-making point is actually reached.

    *Yes, as with all decisions made by those without the power of omniscience. I don’t see you what point you are trying to make here.*

    The point is that it is still a decision for the chooser.

    *The issue is not whether you can predict the future but whether the future has already been mapped out. While we cannot see what we are going to do in the future an omniscient creator would have perfect knowledge of exactly what we are going to do.*

    However, to any one person making a decision, that perfect knowledge is not available.
    Thus, it is still a decision, even though it may be a foregone conclusion.

    *The ultimate result from your example is that only ONE path would have been taken, and an omniscient creator would have known the outcome from the beginning of time.*

    Of course, that is the claim...

    Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
    (Isaiah 46:10, KJV).

    *Under these conditions your perception of having free will must be only an illusion because you will be powerless to do anything other than what God had already decided for you at the beginning of time.*

    Since the two "illusory" different paths have markedly different ends, I'll take the good one.

    *You are simply following a mindless pre-programmed series of actions, down to the tiniest detail.*

    There is the heart of your fallacy.
    If it is pre-programmed then it is not mindless.
    OTOH, if it is mindless, then it is not pre-programmed.

    *If you were somehow to do anything different to that which God had pre-determined then God could not be omniscient. Or IOW if you have free will, i.e. your actions have not been pre-determined; then God cannot be omniscient, and cannot exist as defined.*

    Sort of true.
    The difference is that either that is true for everyone, or it is true for no one.
    IOW, the atheist does not get to opt out of the "program" just because of some perceived injustice in any of this.

    Ultimately then, the choice would be to get with the program. No?
     
  16. Cris In search of Immortality Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,199
    Tony1,

    Yes, so what?

    And in this case since the data was defined by God at the beginning of time then the program has no choice but to follow the path indicated by the data. While the program does not know what it is going to do, God does. The program has no choice in the matter, since the data had already been pre-determined.

    No it isn’t if the choice has already been made ahead of time. A true choice would be the ability to choose something other than that which has been predetermined. If there is only one path open, i.e. that pre-determined by God, then there is effectively no choice to be made by the chooser. The perceived choice of the chooser is in this case an illusion.

    No again. If the outcome is a certainty then there can be no actual decision other than the one that decided the outcome, in this case the omniscient creator.

    There is no other way to view an action that has been pre-determined by an omniscient creator, he has already made all the choices that are ever going to be made. Humans are just mindlessly following the god’s detailed programming, they would have no ability to affect the outcome of any pre-determined event.

    No it is not a claim, it is an axiom. The purpose of any decision is to choose a single outcome from multiple alternatives. And omniscience is defined as the ability to have perfect knowledge of all events.

    If God has decided that that is the way it will be then that is what you will do. If he exists then you have no choice in what you do. You only think you have a choice.

    Nah just a poor sequencing of my words. I’ll re-phrase it for the correct intention – You are mindlessly following a pre-programmed series of actions, down to the tiniest detail. Don’t congratulate yourself on finding a perceived logic error when only a grammatical error was made.

    Yes I totally agree. If God exists then humans have absolutely no free will, they are just simply automatons performing actions exactly as determined by an omniscient creator. And where God has apparently arbitrarily decided that some humans will enjoy a pleasant eternal existence and where others will be subjected to an eternity of suffering.

    And you worship such an unjust monster.

    If on the other hand humans have free will then the Christian god cannot exist and the idiotic scenario described below is just that, idiotic.

    That’s right, NO. If such a god exists then there is absolutely nothing I can do to affect the final outcome for my existence, since my free will would only be an illusion.

    However, if your god does not exist then I probably do have free will, in which case I will choose not to follow the irrational idiocies of a religion whose god is so evil and unjust. It is clearly the only logical choice to make.

    Cris
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2002
  17. tony1 Jesus is Lord Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,279
    *Originally posted by Cris
    Yes, so what?
    *

    That means the chooser still has to make the decision since he doesn't know what the outcome will be until after he makes the decision.

    *And in this case since the data was defined by God at the beginning of time then the program has no choice but to follow the path indicated by the data.*

    It's still a choice the same way an if-then statement is a choice in a computer program.

    *No it isn’t if the choice has already been made ahead of time.*

    That's just it.
    The choice isn't made ahead of time, it is only known ahead of time, and not by the chooser.

    *A true choice would be the ability to choose something other than that which has been predetermined. If there is only one path open, i.e. that pre-determined by God, then there is effectively no choice to be made by the chooser.*

    In effect, you are correct from such a Godlike perspective.
    However, the choosers do not have that perspective.

    *If the outcome is a certainty then there can be no actual decision other than the one that decided the outcome, in this case the omniscient creator.*

    It is only a certainty for God, not for the chooser.
    The chooser still has to choose.

    *Humans are just mindlessly following the god’s detailed programming, they would have no ability to affect the outcome of any pre-determined event.*

    That would mean that you are mindlessly arguing against God.

    *The purpose of any decision is to choose a single outcome from multiple alternatives. And omniscience is defined as the ability to have perfect knowledge of all events.*

    No chooser is omniscient, thus each chooser has multiple alternatives to choose from.
    The omniscient knower isn't doing the choosing, so it doesn't matter to the chooser if there is some omniscient knower.

    *If God has decided that that is the way it will be then that is what you will do. If he exists then you have no choice in what you do. You only think you have a choice.*

    I think I'll choose the good path, then.
    It is worth considering that if that is the case, then you are mindlessly arguing against God.
    OTOH, if you're right, then I'm still choosing the good path, except it will be a "real" choice.

    No loss for me, since if you're right and I'm wrong then nobody will know nor care nor find out.

    *Don’t congratulate yourself on finding a perceived logic error when only a grammatical error was made.*

    Aside from the fact that I'm not congratulating myself, it IS a logical error.
    If it is actually mindless, then whose mind is "less?"
    Your argument is that it is mine, however, if the scenario is as you describe it, then you are also mindlessly doing what you're doing.

    OTOH, if there are "real" decisions to be made, then where do you get your criteria for making them?
    And what difference would it make what criteria, if any, you decided to use?
    Furthermore, in your preferred scenario, evolution would be true, and again you would be making mindless decisions.

    Thus, either way, you are making mindless "decisions."

    *And where God has apparently arbitrarily decided that some humans will enjoy a pleasant eternal existence and where others will be subjected to an eternity of suffering.

    And you worship such an unjust monster.
    *

    Actually, I don't.
    There is no eternal suffering, just ashes.

    But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.
    (Psalms 37:20, KJV).

    But that's the beauty of it.
    In my mindless choice for a pleasant eternity, I get exactly that.
    In your mindless choice for non-existence, you get exactly that.

    The choice is between life and death, not between a pleasant life and an unpleasant life.

    I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
    (Deuteronomy 30:19, KJV).

    *That’s right, NO. If such a god exists then there is absolutely nothing I can do to affect the final outcome for my existence, since my free will would only be an illusion.*

    Ok, let's start with that.

    *However, if your god does not exist then I probably do have free will, in which case I will choose not to follow the irrational idiocies of a religion whose god is so evil and unjust. It is clearly the only logical choice to make.*

    It is not so clearly logical.
    If there is no God and evolution rules, then you will be making equally mindless choices as determined by your DNA.
    IOW, your DNA is what evolves and you are merely a shell which carries it around and behaves in accordance with what is best for your DNA, rather than what is best for you.
     
  18. Cris In search of Immortality Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,199
    Tony1,

    But such a program statement chooses its next path based on the input data. In this case God has chosen the data to force the decision in a particular direction.

    There is no difference. If there is perfect knowledge of an outcome then the decision will have already been made. The apparent chooser would no longer have a decision to make since the outcome would be a foregone conclusion. The chooser is powerless to take any other action.

    The perspective of the chooser is irrelevant, they are powerless to do anything other than that which has been pre-determined.

    No, the action of the perceived chooser is irrelevant. They have to do what has been pre-determined. Remember also that omniscience is perfect pre-knowledge it is not some form of clairvoyance or ability to look ahead to see what is going to happen.

    In this idiotic scenario where a god exists then yes, but a world where humans do not have free will is a nonsense. So no I’m not arguing against a non-existent god.

    Yes he is if he is also the creator, and if you note I have been fairly careful to always reference an omniscient creator. When the two attributes are combined, and at the moment of creation, the creator, in that instant, would have made every decision that was ever needed for the whole of time, since there were no other choosers in existence at that time. This must be true for omniscience to be possible. Every event from the beginning of time would then have been pre-determined since God would have perfect knowledge of everything that was going to occur.

    Ok whatever. It doesn’t matter. He has arbitrarily decided on who will live and who will die then. He would still be unjust and unworthy of praise.

    You are approaching an understanding of the issue.

    Now consider the bigger picture. Does any of that make any sense? A super being creates a universe, populates it with billions of people who have no choice but to follow his detailed instructions, and then he allows an arbitrary number of them to live and the others to die. And for what? His personal pleasure?

    It makes a complete mockery of Christianity if humans have no free will. They would not have the ability to make a free choice between Jesus or not.

    And here you are totally wrong. Fortunately evolution has managed to achieve something unique – intelligent self-awareness. With that ability we are no longer slaves to our DNA and primitive emotional instincts. We have the ability to take control of our own destiny and either destroy ourselves or direct our future evolution into far superior beings.

    Cris
     
  19. Ender Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    294
    Concider this

    Many times throughout this debate, the words chooser, and chioce appear. The only way that a choce can be made is if there are multiple things/actions to choose from. The idea of an omniscience creator would have to know every action/decision throughout all of time since the beginning ot time. SO logicialy he would know what "choices" would be made. Why then would there even be any other way to do things that would only occoupy space-time. Since there is only one thing to choose from then the chooser will "choose" that paticular "choice".




    Pardon my asking but was there a beginning of time?

    Then what happened one second before that, that triggered the "starting of time"?

    As to wiether or not we have free will, we cannot for a couple reasons.

    <HR>

    IF everything is predetermined by a god, (as mentioned eailer) then we are merely following a set of pre-programmed orders. Thus we arn't makeing any decisions. As god decided to let some people burn, while others enjoy a paradise.

    <HR>

    IF nothing was predetermined, then there is no all-knowing creater. So why would i decide to waste my time praising an empty god?

    So it really comes down to weither it was preprogrammed at the very smallest instant (which cannnot be measured) or weither it wasn't.
    IF
     
  20. Cris In search of Immortality Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,199
    Ender,

    There are two perspectives, that of the creator and that of the humans.

    If the creator has generated a master plan that he wants to see fulfilled, then his creations are going to do exactly what he wants and exactly according to his plan. All future events from the moment the plan is defined would be pre-determined. The master plan must exist since Christians have assigned him the attributes of omniscience and omnipotence, and it seems reasonable to assume that the creator isn't going to create a universe that doesn't play out the way he wants. Although the terms reasonable and Christian being connected in the same sentence tend to form an oxymoron.

    From the perspective of the human, who thinks he is making choices, he isn’t, the perceived choices are just illusions. Where there are apparently multiple options to choose from, there really isn’t since the actual path must fit the master plan so only one of the perceived options is actually active.

    An alternative might be where the creator considers all possible combinations of choice options and allows each alternative to become a reality, i.e. there are an extremely large number of concurrent alternate realities where the only difference between each is a single change. In this scenario every eventuality is played out and the creator would have perfect omniscient knowledge of each alternative.

    But what about free will? It still wouldn’t exist since each alternate reality is still completely pre-determined. In each reality only one path is ever available.

    When there is only one possible outcome from a perceived choice then there is no real choice.

    No there cannot be a beginning of time. Something has to be infinite, otherwise nothing could ever get started. Either the universe is infinite or there is in an infinite god, or a third as yet undefined infinite possibility.

    However, when we are discussing the concept of a creator of the universe then ‘the beginning of time’ in this context would refer to the start of the created universe.

    Exactly, welcome aboard.

    Cris
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2002
  21. G0D G0D - Gee Zero Dee Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    150
    Somewhat off topic

    The concept of an [omniscent] god is exclusive to christianity, it seems. Other religions do not seem to have this requirement/restriction on their deity.
     
  22. Ender Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    294
    Concider this

    That could implay one of two things

    The other religions' gods don't know what they are doing,

    OR

    The ideas of an all-knowing god is so farfetched, that the other religions didn't decide to inluce that when the religions were first comming to life.
     
  23. Cris In search of Immortality Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,199
    I believe the Christian god hasn't always been defined as omnicient. That attribute was added to overcome other objections to the Christian god.

    I have the details at home, I'll see if I can find them later.

    Cris
     

Share This Page