On God & Coffee

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by Michael, Aug 10, 2005.

  1. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    Yes, I think I see where you are coming from.
    BUT, can you (or anyone), in a simple YES or NO ONLY answer this question:

    Do I have the freedom to do anything other than what God know's I'll do??
     
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  3. antifreeze defrosting agent Registered Senior Member

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    what about the people who don't believe in god?

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    but the short answer is no. if god knows you will do it then, by virtue of the assumption that your god is omniscient and infallible, you will do it. freedom is not an issue, it is the wording of the question.
     
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  5. Bells Staff Member

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    Damn you people!

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    You've even gone so far as to involve religion in a cup of coffee!

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    Antifreeze, I thought the same thing. I don't believe in God.. therefore should I ask if my subconscious will know that I am about to have a cup of coffee even if I haven't even thought of coffee as yet?

    Speaking of which... mmm coffeeeee...

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  7. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    Why, thank you antifreeze - anymore YES or NO answers.

    Followed by two clicks of the return-key and a short rebuttal.
     
  8. Lori_7 Go to church? I am the church! Registered Senior Member

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    Decaf for you, toots...
     
  9. beyondtimeandspace Everlasting Student Registered Senior Member

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    The reason that I have thus far now given a simple yes or no answer is that to do so would represent adeception on my part. This is because the question is framed in such a way as to be a trap. The problem is that it's a trap because either answer would represent a paradox (seeming contradiction). I assure you, that though my answer is paradoxical, it is not contradictory.

    You ask, "Do I have the freedom to do anything other than what God know's I'll do?" I propose a change to the question, "Do I have the freedom to do anything other than what God knows I am doing?" Essentially this question asks the same thing. I pose the question like this because this is more proper a question when dealing with God and His interactions with the temporal. The answer should be obvious. Of course you have the freedom to choose to do other than you are doing.

    Simply, yes.

    As I said, what matters is that you do what you choose to.
     
  10. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    (1)Do you think God knows the future in exact detail?
    (2) Or only records present information - onto say a big Godly harddrive in the sky?
     
  11. Ozymandias Unregistered User Registered Senior Member

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    God knows that you will freely choose to do that. He knows the outcome of every choice you will make, that does not in itself make it an unfree choice.

    I have a friend, X. If he were presented with the choice to take either a slap in the face or intercourse with an attractive woman, I know that he would choose intercourse. That does not mean that X is not freely choosing intercourse. God simply knows us and the effect of the environment surrounding our decisions better than we could fathom, so that he knows that you will freely choose
    - 123.2134 ml of coffee with
    - 5763 grains of sugar and
    - 23.64548 ml of milk and
    love it, even though you hate sugar with coffee and are a bit lactose intolerant...

    Just because your decision can be known does not mean it is not free.
     
  12. antifreeze defrosting agent Registered Senior Member

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    494
    so i was watching television last night, and i heard this:

    Bender: "So, do you know what I'm gonna do before I do it?"
    God: "Yes."
    Bender: "What if I do something different?"
    God: "Then I don't know that."

    funny. not really applicable to the question at hand, but funny nonetheless.

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  13. jayleew Who Cares Valued Senior Member

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    This is silly, you know the answer.

    If there is a God, the Bible shows that God knows what you are thinking at this moment, and can at this very instant can predict the highest probable events in your life in the future provided you don't veer off from where you are right now. I can do that too with my children. I know their hearts and how they will end up today. Does that affect their freewill? Does that mean they will end up how I think they will? Not if freewill has anything to do with it.

    Right now, God sees that you like your coffee black and will never take it otherwise again since you have tried it other ways. Will that stop you from putting sugar in your coffee in defiance to yourself and to God? As Cato points out, with an omnipotent God, God would know what you are going to do and thus freewill would be nullified. Now I don't know if God truly knows what we will choose or not, but it doesn't make sense if he does.

    This point is not important concerning the faith with me. I will believe either way because I have experienced God. Everyday I doubt him, but he is forever faithful. I pray that I will trust him more to make me a just man like the heroes in the Bible. Someday I will be, so I guess today I am as they were, but I don't feel like it.
     
  14. spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

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  15. beyondtimeandspace Everlasting Student Registered Senior Member

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    1) I think that God knows everything in exact detail.
     
  16. superluminal I am MalcomR Valued Senior Member

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  17. Lori_7 Go to church? I am the church! Registered Senior Member

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    Aw...how cute!
     
  18. cato less hate, more science Registered Senior Member

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    ...
     
  19. Lori_7 Go to church? I am the church! Registered Senior Member

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    Not ewe, but ew, that's disturbing.
     
  20. cato less hate, more science Registered Senior Member

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    how is it disturbing? it is someone beating a dead horse, which is a figure of speech. it means that people are talking about an issue long after it has been resolved.
     
  21. Lori_7 Go to church? I am the church! Registered Senior Member

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    Yea, I get it. The figure of speech isn't disturbing, but the little animation is for some reason. Sorry...bleeding heart animal lover here...I'll cry watching a cartoon, no shit.
     
  22. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    If He knows my every choice, then for all intents and purposes - they are already made. Life must be like watching a movie, rewind or fast-forward, the actions never change.

    If that is the case – then I can not deviate from my destiny and therefore, to me, there is no free-will.


    If he knows my every choice then I am not free to do anything other than what he knows I will do, therefore my feeling like I am making a free choice is actually just an illusion – as that really is the ONLY choice.


    Hmmmm……. I think it does mean exactly that, because if my choice is made, then I didn’t actually have a choice.

    The answer is there is no free choice – there is only what will happen, that’s it.


    I’m not sure if this makes sense. And why are you saying “probable” it either IS known or IS NOT known. When you say probable, you can only be in the IS NOT known group.


    If it is known, then yes- - there will be no other choice than to do what will be done. Sort of like puppetry really. The puppet may “think” it’s moving freely, but really that freedom is an illusion. There is no choice for the puppet, it can not deviate of it’s own volition. So it has no freedom at all.

    In the same sense, you may think you made a decision – but really there is only ONE decision that CAN be made. If God knows it, and God is not wrong – then you CAN NOT make ANY other decision. You MUST make the ONLY decision that is POSIIBLE – and that is the known one.

    Therefore, choice is an illusion, as there is no alternative option.

    It only doesn’t make sense if you cling to the notion of free-will. If you abandon the notion of free-will and accept that there is no free-will and that you are a puppet in God’s play, then everything is perfectly fine.

    But, yes, if you believe in free-will and also believe in an omniscient God, well then, no that doesn’t make sense.
     
  23. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    Do you also believe that God is omnipotent (able to do anything)?
     

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