Fundamental Fundamentalism: part 2

Like I said, you have no idea what's going on.

If you don't like what the Koran says then take it up with Muhammad. I did address the limitations. Not that you've actually read my paper. You can't even even read my posts.

Telling the truth doesn't make a person a bigot.

Ben

 

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Huff and puff all you want but it's only bluster

Excuse the hell out of me, KalvinB, but you seem to be the one who has the problem with what the Koran says. Deal with it. Didn't I tell you to go down to a local mosque and ask? Well? What's your excuse?

Are you speaking of a separate paper from your ill-founded topics? Then of course not. But like I said, good luck containing that much history in 8-10 pages, especially with your bigoted priorities. Nonetheless, you seem to be ignoring those limitations, like when you kept going off about Markx killing or slapping you. There's this part:

So you slap a Muslim and he slaps you back. Now ... How does the violence continue endlessly?

At this point, with you turning the other cheek, and he having fought off the oppression, it should be over. What, are you going to slap him again?

This is the element you seem to be overlooking, and what compels me to note your apathy toward the limits prescribed in The Recital (just to add a narwhal to the duck and the horse). And how could you possibly accuse me of not reading your posts? After all, I provided an excellent counterexample (destruction of Amalekites) to your bit about Jericho. And do you think I haven't noticed your duck-duck-horse game of three-card monty?

You'll have to show me where in the Bible it says that when the government tells you to let the witches live, then the laws of man override the laws of God. I'll await your citation on that point especially.

You're simply trying to wash your hands of any sense of wrongdoing; for what reason should witchcraft or adultery ever be a crime worthy of death? The only reasons are snotty, belligerent religions that say everyone else is mortally wrong. So if the priest says it's okay, then you can murder someone? That's the twisted part of it, that by your logic people are too cowardly to commit their petty murders without the appearance of permission. And here again I see jealousy: so you think the Muslim is entitled by his religion to kill--I can see how amonotheistic, dominion-oriented evangelical like yourself might covet that "right".

And it's not like your posts have had much to contribute to your own topic of late; mostly it has just been machismo, heavy on the cheese. And you're right, Ben, telling the truth doesn't make a person a bigot; I do not, however, see what the hell that has to do with you.

thanx,
Tiassa

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Ben,

What is the US Government if not human? Is it not made of people like you and me? Do they not get elected by you and me, and govern with our consent? Does that not make you and me directly responsible for anything the government does, and does that not make the government just an extension of you and me?

That means if our government strikes back, we are all collectively striking back, by proxy. There is no difference. After all, the government only does what the voters collectively allow it to do (that is, if it ever wants to be re-elected, which it usually does.)

 

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If you don't know the difference between authority and the common man you will always be confused.

Tiassa:

"bigoted priorities"

Hey there's that word again. Not that you can actually support it. You may have read my paper but you've yet to actually grasp everything in it considering you still think your Amelikites story is proving your point.

Like I said. Pathetic.

Ben

 

If that's how you feel, hater ...

If that's how you feel about it, Ben ... whatever. But let me put this one through your dense, Christian skull: I don't give a flying fuck whether it's the Pope, the Prophet, the Penitent, or Jesus Fucking Christ Himself: you are justifying murder with your comparisons of ducks and horses.

Do you understand that? Are you capable of understanding that you are now the second person at Sciforums to openly endorse murder in the name of Christian religion? So maybe it makes a difference to you whether you actually kill someone or just get the glee of being the tattletale that causes someone's death, but you are advocating a barbaric standard and demonstrating further the hateful effects of Christian faith.

Good fucking show, mate. Godforsaken savage.

I know how much you would like things to be what you say, KalvinB, but you'll have to show why the Amalekites don't apply. You did make that point about how pussy God's people are with your Jericho argument, how they just pranced around and waited for God to do the damage instead of killing people like the mean, nasty Muslims. Yet you don't seem to care that when Saul failed to be mean and nasty on God's behalf he was punished. What was your point about Jericho? That you can be irrelevant in your own topic posts?

Good fucking show, mate. Is missing the point an art form for you or just a God-given talent?

Make a point about the Amalekites. I know how much you would like to be the arbiter of what is pathetic or not, but unfortunately, KalvinB, the only thing you get to be the arbiter of is how deep that hole is that you're digging for yourself.

I applaud you. You are striving toward a new mark in post-Christian idiocy.

You know, I really tried to ignore where you were going with your topic post. I even tried to be helpful.

Do you really have to prove that this is the best a Christian can do? That hate and superstition is all you've got going for you?

Cheers, KalvinB ... I'd say you're amazing, but frankly, you're quite typical. This kind of stupidity is what I've come to expect from Christianity, and why I will never again participate in its sacred destruction of human spirit and knowledge.

A-men, brother. Praise be to Jesus. Let the holy hate of heaven shine upon all of our hearts.

thanx,
Tiassa

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Like I said. Pathetic. Ignorant pathetic dibble.

Ben

 

The new fad ...

Is this the new, Are you done yet? What you ought to do, KalvinB, is try learning from the shortcomings of your topic posts. People gave you resources, yet you only exploited them to reinforce your preexisting bigotries. Why do you bother posting here if all you want us to do is blindly agree with you? What, do you think you're God? Would you rather we all just ignore your topics? We can do that, you know.

thanx,
Tiassa

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Can I correct your statement?.........I think you were trying to say,

Like I said. Pathetic. Ignorant pathetic bible???

I hope not.

Like Tiassa said KalvinB, Good luck on your paper of hate and your personal haterd ideas. By the way does your local chruch still burns witches?

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Why are you even here?

You have no idea what you're talking about. You have no idea what I'm talking about.

Ben

 

KalvinB,

Here is an elementary start. Short and to the point, I think.

http://www.alislam.org/books/study-of-islam/jihad.html

 

The paper isn't about "jihad" because it's just a term. It's about

a) who is the enemy - unbelievers
b) who has the authority to fight them - any believer
c) when can the enemy be fought against - when the unbelievers start it
d) when does it end - when the unbelievers side with the believers, surrendor or are wiped out.

Part D will be covered in the 3rd part when I talk about modern wars concerning Muslims.

The Site:

"the Holy War, called Jihad, is in reality a holy campaign which uses the help of the Quran to bring about a spiritual revolution in the world."

Vs the Koran:

"...they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement"

That's one hell of a paper cut. The site is correct in that Jihad CAN mean a spritual revolution but even CAIR points out it's a broad term that also can include a "...struggle in the battlefield for self-defense." e.g. Holy War.

http://www.cair-net.org/asp/aboutislam.asp

That's why I don't care to discuss the word. It's obvious the Koran allows for religious wars involving large amounts of death. They can call it a horse all they want but it's still a duck. Any site that claims Jihad doesn't mean Holy War I immidiatly leave. It's very clear that it does. It's definition is based on the context in which it is used. Any site that can't admit to that isn't worth looking further into.

If you want a real study instead of my Reader's Digest version

http://www.al-islam.org/short/jihad/

Ben

 

This thread is just a laugh a minute.

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What's all this crap about slapping Muslims and Christians? What's the difference? I'm an atheist. If you slap me, I'll kick your nuts in.

Just coz you all seem to have missed it, I'll say it again:

Both books have a lot of crap about when you should kick someone's arse for not agreeing with you. Doesn't that strike any of you as ridiculous? A simple disagreement about the nature fo the universe or whatever is NO reason to kick someone's arse. The Christian bible and the Koran both describe when and why you SHOULD kick someone arse for just such a thing though. They are both guides to barbarism.

It's really friggin simple. If you base your life around a book which says when and how hard you can kick someone's arse, you are a barbarian.

Now if the RC church or their opposites in Islamic publishing released new revised editions which cut out all that violent crap and concentrated ONLY on the good stuff (like "don't steal crap off your neighbours"), then I'd be all for it. But unfortunately these religions are NOT like that. They are, as I said, guides to barbarism and bigotry.

 

You are very much clueless on what the Bible says concerning this topic.

Your comment is just as ignorant now as it was the first time you posted it.

Ben

 

KalvinB,

Remember this?

***If anyone has any sources for info on the Koran and Jihads let me know. I've found a few but it's mostly interpretation which lead to my conclusion. As far as I could tell the Koran really had no guidelines for war or prophets.***

The site reviews quidelines.

1) "Fight against them by means Of it (the Quran) a great fight Surah Al-Furqan" (Ch. 25, V,53)

These are the very words of the Quran which throw light on the nature of Jihad. It must be fought by means of the Quran and the Quranic message alone.

2) To tame one's rebellious nature into complete submission to God is another form of Jihad which is in fact the greater Jihad, according to the Holy Prophet of Islam. On returning from a battle, he is reported to have said:

"We are returning from the lesser Jihad to the greater Jihad."4

(Is this your duck called horse? More than one form of Jihad? If so, what's the problem?)

3) Defensive war is permitted only on the condition that the enemies initiate hostilities and raise sword against a weak, defenceless people for having committed the only crime of declaring that God is their Lord.

4) All offensive wars according to Islam are unholy.


***The paper isn't about "jihad" because it's just a term. It's about

a) who is the enemy - unbelievers
b) who has the authority to fight them - any believer
c) when can the enemy be fought against - when the unbelievers start it
d) when does it end - when the unbelievers side with the believers, surrendor or are wiped out.***

So.... What's the point?

 

Try being serious, KalvinB

First off, KalvinB, those are excellent links. However, I'll wait for you to raise a serious issue from them.

Look at it this way, KalvinB: you and I can read the same words out of any book and interpret them to mean two different things. This does not restrict itself to simple botched definitions of words, but of base perspectives. For instance, Justice: to me, Justice is equality 'twixt people; knowledge, integrity, and compassion are its primary attributes. To others, though, Justice sometimes means something much, much different. There are religious folk from all manner of faith who seem to believe that Justice is the statistical triumph of their particular paradigm over another. There are patriotic folk who think that Justice is whatever serves the nation best. And there we can see another difference of perception: what serves the nation best? Is a people best served by tyranny? What constitutes service in that sentence?

Right now, as I look over your four points, some basic reactions arise:

* who is the enemy - unbelievers This is like giving the police a description of your attacker: he has dark hair. In that case, you have reduced the probable attackers to, say, half the male population. In the same sense, what are you actually describing here? Among all three Abramic religions there are special regards aimed at the unbelievers.

* who has the authority to fight them - any believer You're still showing signs of envy around the gills on this one, KalvinB. It's like how you came riding in, proclaiming Christian principle, but paying only lip service. Your cruelty and aggression was quickly apparent in a number of threads, and the betrayal of your faith came down to one point: you didn't want to have to turn the other cheek; you wanted to be like other people who have chosen to guide their actions by wisdom and will instead of according to a book. And here, you seem quite hung up on the idea that you don't get to be the executioner like you see among the Muslims. As Adam has pointed out, what's the difference? As we see from the Al-Islam link, permission for warfare is granted to those who are attacked and definitely wronged. As an interesting third-party comparison, we might note Adam's atheistic position that makes no distinction 'twixt whether or not he was wronged.

* when can the enemy be fought against - when the unbelievers start it This is a far sight better than going forth to aggressively evangelize by the sword. Bottom line, I don't see why this is an issue. If there's something you have chosen for some reason not convey about your sentiments, I urge you to do so--it would help convey your meaning if you didn't leave vagaries hanging. Presently, I'm looking over this list and wondering what your problem is. Your examination of these points has reeked of condemnation to the point that you've had to overlook the paucity of your own comparative examples and ignore data which you find detrimental to your editorial position. What answer did you want to see as far as when the enemy can be fought? Whenever the hell one feels like it?

* when does it end - when the unbelievers side with the believers, surrendor or are wiped out Actually, I believe it's when the aggressors sue for peace (4.90); and this is part of what motivates me to question the integrity of your motives on this topic. It seems more like bitch-propaganda against Islam. Such as in your topic post, when you wrote,

Strangely, KalvinB, your own link is that knowledge you seek, yet you look past it:

You equate jihad and war, calling the distinction 'twixt the two an "annoying word game". And then you criticize Islam for having "no guidelines for war or prophets". Hmm ...

* Jihad = War (KalvinB)
* Qur'an describes rules for Jihad (fact)
* Islam has "no guidelines for war ...." (KalvinB)

... and if that isn't enough, you go on to provide a paper about those rules which you say don't exist. This last point would be of no consequence, except that you've declared to stand on those earlier, erroneous efforts. Karen Armstrong reminds us of this and other points about Islam and warfare in this poorly-reproduced article (lacks original publication information--e.g. New York Times, AP, USA Today, &c).

Bearing in mind Ayatullah Mutahhari's notes on conditional and unconditional verses, a couple of bits on warfare:

* Therefore, if they keep away from you and cease their hostility and offer you peace, God bids you not to harm them. (4.90)

* Believers, show discernment when you go to fight for the cause of Allah, and do not say to those that offer you peace: "You are not believers,"--seeking the chance booty of this world; for with Allah there are abundant gains. Such was your custom in days gone by, but now Allah ahs bestowed on you His grace. Therefore show discernment; God is cognizant of all your actions. (4.95)

And a couple of possibilities that you haven't explored:

* Can a book "born of war" lead people to peace? Why do you presume that this book "born of war" is designed to perpetuate war? Why do you insist on this slander?

* Given that there must be no coercion in matters of faith (2.256), what, then, becomes the point of killing the infidel? As we see, according to the notion of conditional verses, the ability of any Muslim to strike me down for witchcraft is undermined by the notion that there must be no coercion in matters of faith. For instance, coming across a witch, what can a Muslim do? He cannot take aggression, for the witch has not provoked him through aggression. He cannot slay the witch for idolatry because that equals coercion; it demands adherence to Islam at a mortal price. The conditional result of that being that should I raise a coven of warlocks and underrtake the oppressing of this Muslim, he is to destroy me once it is established that he is definitively wrong. What is left of your spiteful approach to the Qur'an at this point? About as much as Mutahhari notes of substance in Christianity: nothing.

I would hope you're prepared to address these and other issues which you've thus far neglected before proceeding. Otherwise, I'd advise that you save yourself the effort of further embarrassment.

Good show, Ben. The infidel, atheist, and pagan communities all thank you for your continuing contribution to the decline of the Christian menace.

thanx,
Tiassa

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I'll show you precisely how clueless I am about the violence the christian bible deliberately inspires...

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Deuteronomy

13:6
If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;

13:7
Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth;

13:8
Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him:

13:9
But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.

13:10
And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.

13:13
Certain men, the children of Belial, are gone out from among you, and have withdrawn the inhabitants of their city, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which ye have not known;

13:14
Then shalt thou enquire, and make search, and ask diligently; and, behold, if it be truth, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought among you;

13:15
Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword.

13:16
And thou shalt gather all the spoil of it into the midst of the street thereof, and shalt burn with fire the city, and all the spoil thereof every whit, for the LORD thy God: and it shall be an heap for ever; it shall not be built again.

-----------------------------------------------

Samuel

15:3
Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

---------------------------------------

Deuteronomy

2:33
And the LORD our God delivered him before us; and we smote him, and his sons, and all his people.
2:34
And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain:
2:35
Only the cattle we took for a prey unto ourselves, and the spoil of the cities which we took.

21:18
If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:

21:19
Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;

21:20
And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.

21:21
And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

21:22
And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree:

21:23
His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God; ) that thy land be not defiled, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.

21:10.
When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and the Lord thy God hath delivered them into thine hands, and thou hast taken them captive,
21:11.
And seest among the captives beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife;
21:12.
Then thou shalt bring her home to thine house; and she shall shave her head, and pare her nails;
21:13.
ment of her captivity from off her, and shal! Remain in thine house, and bewail her father and her mother a full month: and after that thou shalt go in unto her, and be her husband, and she shall be thy wife.

22:28
If a man find a damsel [that is] a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;
22:29
Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty [shekels] of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.


----------------------------------

Numbers

1:51
And when the tabernacle setteth forward, the Levites shall take it down: and when the tabernacle is to be pitched, the Levites shall set it up: and the stranger that cometh nigh shall be put to death.

35. And the Lord said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.

36. And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses.

1:51
And when the tabernacle setteth forward, the Levites shall take it down: and when the tabernacle is to be pitched, the Levites shall set it up: and the stranger that cometh nigh shall be put to death.

3:10
10 And thou shalt appoint Aaron and his sons, and they shall wait on their priest's office: and the stranger that cometh nigh shall be put to death.

----------------------------------

Exodus

21:17
And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death.

35:2
Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death.

----------------------------------

Leviticus

20:9
For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him.

----------------------------------

Hosea

13:16
Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.

------------------------------------

Now, do I really know nothing about that barbaric little book? Or have you simply never actually bothered reading it?

This evening's sermon on the glory of rape, murder, and theft in the name of god, brought to you by Convert Or Die Ministries (tm).

Actually, it doesn't inspire these acts, it commands them. Face it, that trashy little book is pure evil.

 

You're only proving my point Adam because you can't seem to get the concept of authority through your head. YOU can't do any of what you listed. AUTHORITY takes care of it. YOU are not AUTHORITY. You can't read the second paper without the first (where I cover this) since the second is a continuation of the first. Both are posted at my web-site.

Tiassa:

There are no rules concerning prophets or wars in the terms that anyone can be a prophet and anyone can lead a war. The problem is the lack of authority or need to prove authority.

I know you're deaf on this point as I've pointed it out a number of times most recently in my first paper but in the BIBLE you have to PROVE your authority. "God told me" is grounds for death if you can't back it up. You want to be taken seriously and yet don't listen or understand despite being told over and over countless times.

The third paper will look to see if that lack of authority is the cause of all the problems in the east. There is no need to PROVE authority in the KORAN. All you have to do is CLAIM you have authority and get people to follow you.

The other thing I'm going to examine is whether or not a very poor understanding of the concept of peace found in the Koran is keeping the Middle East from finding peace.

Ben

 

You keep whining about problems in east and middle east. What do you know about any of that??. Nothing. What are your sources.......CNN and Fox news?.
See you have this problem, you think you know the cause and you think you can draw your own sketch of those problems, But you have no clue what you are saing, You have no idea what is going in Middle east. All you know is Koran teaches terror........I feel pity for you, I really do, Your mind can't think anything beyond that. What is the problem in east?? Do you even know where east is?? Do you know the history of middle east?? What do you know, Sitting in your home and watching news and doing key word searches. You don't know anything about those people so your paper would be waste of time for you and for readers. I think you lost this argument long ago. You weren't able to answer simple questions from Tiassa's posts and you are talking about answering major problems of middle east.

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You make me laugh.
Peace

 

"You keep whining"

Who's whining?

"All you know is Koran teaches terror......."

You and Tiassa both need to try actually listening.

You have no idea what I'm saying.

Ben

 

"If so, what's the problem?"

The question is basically are Holy Wars (as in with real swords)fundamental to Islam. The answer is yes they are.

"So.... What's the point?"

The Koran isn't helping people find any sort of peace. When you have two very stubborn people who have no concept of "letting it go" in their religion what can one expect but that fight until they are all dead? The "proof" of their God is winning wars. If either side were to back down it would prove to them that their's was the weaker God.

Ben