Asgard... I will say our system is better than any other, and I'll shout it from the rooftops. If you dont agree, go spend some time in other countries for a while, like maybe in south east asia or the middle east, perhaps central africa. When you've done that, typing things in like that last post will seem a little silly to you. Of course our system is not perfect. of course it has flaws. But to say it's not better than whatever else is on offer is going too far. To help prove this, think about one little thing... How many Australians, Americans, English, and Western Europeans have you seen jumping into boats lately and bee-lining it for another country to escape persecution? None? What a surprise. I've probably missed a few developed nations in there but you get the picture. Here in the West, we have poor people. But that usually means they might live in small houses and cant afford a TV, or to eat at McDonalds. Here in the West we have oppressed minorites. But that usually means they find it a little harder to get a job, or they have to build their own churches. Little bit different from being shot for your religious views and starving isnt it? THATS why our system is better. People live through it.
Maybe our police policy worked before....but now? (damn that was a long thread) I'm with Tiassa, we are some bunch of ignorants, arrogants, and generally greedy people..... but hey,, I think I'm a good person... The majority of the population doesn't have a clue about foreign affairs beyond what they glean from the news. And who do we think we're fooling with all this bs propaganda? To all those who persistently advocate an American hegemony, and who talk about the world crubling and such if the U.S reliquishes its international presence: eh? honestly. do ya think the taliban,Russia, or even China.....who so wants to be the world's new superpower...is going to reign and spread its presence/power over the world. NOT LIKELY. Nations only come to power during times of great change and disorder throughout the world: world wars. This is not a world war. We're not helping the world, we're not even helping ourselves with our policing policy(though we think we are)... most have no clue that many terrorists and Bin Ladins were products of past U.S. military operations.... don't get me wrong... I'm as patriotic as they come, but the only way America will regain respect and true prosperity is when we stop bossing the world around, focus on domestic issues(hey, our failing school system would be a nice start!), and fix the problems we've caused. well....yeah. I could go on and on ....but everyone would just get bored and move on to the next thread.
Ok i will make this one short why is the US telling Israil and India that it wrong to do what they themselves are doing to Afganistan
The Taliban are/were scum. I did year 12 with a chap from Afghanistan who told me what he'd seen over there. For years I have wanted someone, anyone, to kick the Taliban's arse. This Al Queda business just happens to have provided a good excuse to do just that. Do you actually know what Israel is doing? They are doing precisely what the MAZI party did prior to WW2. Taking every scrap of land from the Palestinians (the rightful residents of that land, being that the Palestinians are the descendents of the Akkadians and Phoenicians) and herding them into ghettos. Then they storm those ghettos and kill people. Even when they don't kill people, they flatten houses and arrest people for no reason, just to make life hell for the Palestinians. Fnck Israel.
So your attitude is to sit back and let them murder each other then Asguard? Let women be burned for being raped... we have no right to interfere. My god... if we all took that view then the next time I see my neighbour being held up, mugged, and his car stolen I'll just do nothing.... hell what right do I have to interfere? I do see your point of view, and of course invading a soveriegn nation is a large step to take, but to sit back and do absolutely NOTHING is a moral sinkhole I'd rather not see us slip into. The two evils we are looking at is to have us seen as political bullies for stepping in, or live in total blindness of the plight of some of the worlds citizens. In that case, let them think we're bullies... after all any sane person (including a large, but silent, proportion of that country's own citizens) thinks otherwise whether they're allowed to express that view or not.
If my neighbour is beating the snot out of his wife, you can bet your arse I'll wander over and kick his nuts in. If two certain countries over north-west of Australia look like they're about to nuke the hell out of each other, we have every right in the world to invade, conquer, and rebuild those countries as we see fit, before they can ruin the entire world. Sovereignty alone can not make a nation completely irresponsible. If they need a kick in the nuts, we have the right to give it to them. Unfortunately, Australia rarely has the might to accomplish this on its own.
Barney_TRubble Now that i have finally finished LAUGHING i can anwer you. I have WATCHED people show that sort of indifference. When did you invade and when will you invade Zimbawe who (although not QUITE as bad are doing the same thing) You invaded to serve your OWN intersts and ONLY to serve your own intersts.
When will I invade Zimbabwe? I have served in the military. If called upong to do so again, I will, although I do not ever want to go back. And if Australia invades Zimbabwe and I am called to go, then I'll go.
Adam I happen to agree even though im not im the Milatry i would join if our missions were like that and Temor but they ARE NOT. This is a self serving war and the only reason WE are there is because our goverment bends over anytime the US wants something. This is why im NOT in the Army because i would happerly die for my country but NOT for the US.
Asguard... "indifference" is a word which, applied in this case, i take it to mean i dont care? I think if you read my posts again Asguard you'll find I DO care... a lot. More so than someone who'd rather we just stuck our heads in the sand, simply because america is involved and we cant support THOSE evil, nasty people now can we? We are not in Zimbabwe. fair enough point too. However, as Adam pointed out australia is in NO military position to do anything about anything... on its own. when someone else does, however, we tend to side with them and lend any support we can. i think you're making the mistake of thinking i'm american here? i'm not.. i'm as aussie as you. Perhaps more so... we have a tradition in this country of helping our mates out, something which you seem not to agree with. If america, for whatever reason, went into Zimbabwe then i'm reasonably certain we would too. We cant do it on our own, so having shots at australia for not jumping in everywhere theres a spot of trouble is not fair by any means. However, you might remember a little spot just above us which got themselves in trouble and we DID do exactly that... it was important to our country as well as to the world view. You've got to think outside the box... in the end, how much does it really matter WHY the US is doing something, as long as a bad situation is resolved? Do you think the Afghans under the taliban gave two shits as to why the US came in? not one little bit. If the US went in for political or economic reasons... so what? the job got done whatever the motivation. Let me ask you a question... Your sister was raped and murdered, and someone else who was walking past saw the whole event, had the chance to save her and did absolutely nothing. How would you feel about that person? According to you..... he did the right thing Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
HELL NO but i have SEEN people walk away from situations while not quite that bad, ALMOST as bad. I watched someone atacked on the steps of Flinders Street station and while I was to young to do anything about it, There were others who just walked away. THAT is what i mean by indiference. I WASN'T refering to YOU. As to Temor I think that was the best thing our country has ever done (that was why i concidered joining the Army and i also volintered to go over and help atched to one of the aid organisations through the scouts but it fell through). If the US was doing this to free the Afghan people from the tiriny (of a goverment THEY set up) then i would be the first out aplording them but how did the Taliban get worse to the AFGHAN people after 11/9. They didn't the US is NOT in this to right a wrong they are in it for themselfs. THIS is why i brought up Zimbabwe because there are a LOT of places just as bad but the US wont do anything about THEM because they are not a threat to them.
Question: By what right does anyone have to force his or her own beliefs down the throat of another person? Answer: None Question: How do you peacefully disarm a nation who, if given the chance, would use a thermal nuclear weapon on you? Answer: You don't The world in my opinion is at a stage of critical mass. The likely scenario will be something along these lines. 1.) A major U.S. city will be nuked within 10 years. 2.) Martial law is instituted in every country in the world. Under martial law, all rights of the person are suspended indefinitely. 3.) The United Nations calls for world disarmament and systematically searches door to door, nation to nation confiscating anything that even remotely looks like a weapon. 4.) Individuals who do not comply are labeled terrorists and are hunted down and taken away for "processing" or are shot on site. 5.) At this point we as a species will either evolve or be destroyed. I for one hope that we all make it through and reap the benefits of the next industrial revolution [nanotechnology]. Love and kindness for your fellow human I believe is the key to our species survival. By what right do you have to survive?
Pine_net: Bullshit. If I catch you molesting a kid, I'll kick your nuts in. I have every right to do it. Why? because I say so. I've been into the reasons why we have our ethical standards and such in several other threads, not going to do it again. You begin by hitting all their power stations, water supplies, major roads, airports, military installations, and of course launch sites with cruise missiles or bombs. Befroe they know you're coming, if possible. Then you drop paratroopers into their major cities. They are a tad unlikely to nuke their own major cities. Martial law does not work that way. It is, by definition, and by its name, law. When martial law is declared, all those in its area of effect are under military jurisdiction. You may have noticed that the military is a highly disciplined and organised organisation. It has laws. Most of those laws were specifically created to ensure the security and above all survival of those it governs. For example, you obey the chain of command. Why? Because that way there's a better chance of everyone surviving. Civilians under martial law simply subsistute civilian law for martial (meaning military) law. You've been watching that Bruce Willis movie, haven't you? I want the right, I choose it, I take it, it's mine. Deal with it.
"all men were created equal and endowed with the right of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" unless you oppose the Untited States.....I'm not saying Stopping Hitler was wrong but I am saying we have no right to force the world to pursue our happiness.
You guys still dont seem to get the point... the US is going into these countries for their own economic and political reasons... we all seem to agree on that much. the POINT though, is that it DOES NOT MATTER what their reasons are... a lot of people are now better off as a result. Ask the Afghans if they think times are going to be worse now the Talibans gone. Do you think any of them give a damn what the USA's motivation was? NO. I'll repeat that again... NO, they dont. They're happy SOMEONE did something. If it was left up to Asguard the Taliban would still be there, and people would still be suffering... because its not fair, we should do Zimbabwe too, and therefore the USA is not allowed to do anything at all. Cant you see that? You seem to think, that because the motives of the USA were not pure, that means they shouldnt have done anything at all. In my opinion, thats crap. The final result is that thousands of people are better off after the Taliban are gone.
The Viet Nam war proves how wrong that thinking is. We entered the War to stop Communism. We had a domino theory that said "if we didn't stop North Viet Nam the communist would take over the world". We sent many men over their and 50,000 some odd thousand lost their life in that war on our side. We later said " Ok, we are now leaving ". North Viet Nam took over South Viet Nam and communist DID not take over the world.
People you are approaching the arguement totally from the wrong perspective. You are arguing about what the U.S.A does from a morale stand point as if America does what it does because its the right thing or the wrong thing to do. It doesnt matter because America will do what it will do if its in our nations best interest regardless of if its right or wrong. Why do you think we intrevined in Afganistan and not Rawanda Afghanistan harbord those that would attack us, why do we support Isreal we need an alli in the mid east. Why did we attack Iraq in support of Kuwait destabalization of the mid east is not good for our oil supply. Regardless of it being right or wrong America can do it because of the oldest law in the world anywhere "MIGHT MAKES RIGHT" if u have the biggest guns and the most money right just doesnt matter until we evolve into big head peace loving creatures that dont eat meat. So when you ask your self why did the good ole U.S of A do this when they told so and so not to do this or America does this when they dont want blank to do it ask your self 3 questions is it in the U.S.A's interest, will it peserve the nation, and will it perpetuate the U.S.A's place in the world not if its the right thing to do. Of course the govt. will try to put a good face on policy for forumers like us but bottom line ask those 3 questions, not that its right its just the way it is. (Please excuse my spelling and grammer)
If I were a betting man, I would not take that one. It is becoming clear that America has not necessarily learned from her past mistakes. How will a civil war make these people better off? Peace.
