communication with other demensions

Discussion in 'Pseudoscience Archive' started by blackwinded, Sep 3, 2005.

  1. Oli Heute der Enteteich... Registered Senior Member

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    I knew what was meant, it's called humour. So what's a spirit, how does it evolve and how does evolution refer to vibration? More specious drivel. That's wasn't humour

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    What evidence is there for
    1) spirits existing
    2) evolution of spirits
    3) relationship of "vibration" to evolution
    4) spirits being the cause, as opposed to a malfunction in the brain.
    5) how do you measure the vibrational rate of a spirit?
     
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  3. Bebelina kospla.com Valued Senior Member

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    You have to answer those questions yourself. What do you chose to do? To convince yourself there is no evidence or try to find it?
     
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  5. Oli Heute der Enteteich... Registered Senior Member

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    Having spent approximately 3 years in my life reading everything available in all seven libraries in my home town I'd consider that I'd at least looked at the subject.
    What I found was irrational, self-contradictory and offered no proof. It was a mish-mash of wishful thinking, credulous acceptance at face value of unprovable and unrepeatable occurences, and hokum.
    There are simpler explanations for the majority of what I've experienced, obviating the need for "higher" or "lower" beings, and the currently inexplicable ones gave no indication as why it happened. And there was no indication whatsoever of invisible vibrating spirits, malevolent of otherwise. Unless you accept "shit happens" as an explanation

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  7. Bebelina kospla.com Valued Senior Member

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    What did you experience that lead you to this 3-year quest? And will you continue looking? Or do you feel that you have found your answers already?
    What kind of proof are you looking for?
    See, I'm not offering any readymade solutions...

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  8. Darkclouds Registered Member

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    Good, perhaps you should before advising someone to seek a medium/healer which may be a questionable service to some...but is hardly a free service =)

    However I didnt ask u if you had their medical info..I asked how you could have drawn your conclusions WITHOUT it.
     
  9. Oli Heute der Enteteich... Registered Senior Member

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    I was given a library ticket

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    Then I just went through the shelves from 000 Dewey until they ran out of numbers.
    The experiences to which I alluded came years to decades later.
    I always like to look, even loonies sometimes come up with something worthwhile

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    The proof that I'm looking for is (in anything) repeatability, basically. Anomalies aren't proof of anything just an indication that there may be something, or something was done incorrectly or someone reported it incorrectly.
    Darkclouds, the lady has just told you she has the file

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    I'm sure she'd admit a diagnosis without would be foolhardy,
     
  10. Bebelina kospla.com Valued Senior Member

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    Seeing a psychologist isn't free either, and since that apparently isn't working, I suggested an alternative therapy.
    You seem to have a problem with that, why?
     
  11. Bebelina kospla.com Valued Senior Member

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    Oli, would you like to share your experiences with the forum? Maybe some loonies in here can offer a few new angles.
     
  12. Darkclouds Registered Member

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    Oli I saw her statement but I took it to be sarcasm - perhaps I was wrong

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    Bebelina My problem is with your quick assessment of someone diagnosed with a serious illness. Even suggesting its something like an outside force without being more informed seems reckless to me. Magical thinking is one of the known 'symptoms' of his illness...by offering him an alternative that encourages magical thinking you could be hendering if not down right harming his progress.
     
  13. Bebelina kospla.com Valued Senior Member

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    It may seem wreckless to you, but perhaps this person needs to be validated instead of hearing that he/she is insane, because that is certainly harming the progress.
    There are always two sides of the coin.
    How do you know that magical thinking is harmful? What is magical thinking to you?
     
  14. Oli Heute der Enteteich... Registered Senior Member

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    Darkclouds, no you weren't wrong (I assume). MY statement was sarcasm

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    Bebelina, umm, basically, no. I'm not a share-y person, which seriously p*ssed off my psychology tutors. What happened, happened. And short of resorting to "invisible vibrating spirits" etc outside of verifiable science, then I think I'll go for temporary imbalance of mind

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  15. Darkclouds Registered Member

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    simplest example would be someone with Schizophrenia hearing voices that instruct them to do harmful things to themselves or others. If they believe these voices are really coming from a source outside of themselves then the experience becomes infinitely more frightening and the person may be more suggestable if they think what is happening to them is real.
     
  16. Oli Heute der Enteteich... Registered Senior Member

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    11,888
    My thoughts exactly. This guy says he's been hearing voices "from another dimension" for two years. If it was me, I'd be at the doctor for a check-up five minutes after the first word, and then into a good lab.
    It's the acceptance that there's an external source and the grasping at schizophrenia as an "unrecognised type of ESP" (are there any "recognised" types?) that really gets me.
     
  17. Bebelina kospla.com Valued Senior Member

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    The voices are there, already telling "bad" things. The person believes they are real, wheter they are figments of imagination, braindamage or whatever doesn't really matter, because those definitions by others do not change the persons experience.
    And alienating the person who seeks help by telling them that they are insane and should stop listening to the voices have not helped either. They voices are still there.
    What would you do? Medicate more? Until the brain really is damaged for life...
    Or, taking the persons experiences for real with respect and adress the problem from their point of view? Is it your own fear of "insanity" that stops you from doing this?
    Because the result is unknown until you have tried it. When all else has failed, wouldn't you dare to at least try?
     
  18. Oli Heute der Enteteich... Registered Senior Member

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    From a personal point of view, as I said, I'd get myself into a lab for the phenomenom (whether it's "spirits" or "insanity" it's a phenomenon) to be studied. Leaving him to run round hearing voices is hardly responsible whichever it is, IMHO. What happens if the voices tell him to start killing every third person he meets? A belief that it's an external source will justify, on some level at least, his actions thereafter. A belief that it's an illness will at least make him think hard before following instructions.
    And no, actually, I have no fear of insanity whatsoever. The funniest (to me at least) poem I ever wrote was about accepting my own (possible) insanity

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  19. Bebelina kospla.com Valued Senior Member

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    The person is already running around hearing voices and there is nothing we can do to stop that, only listen and offer advice as best as we can.
    Why would an external source have more power than your own mind? Isn't it the other way around? If that becomes a true realisation for the person, then the voices whether internal or external can be silenced, if that is what is wanted.
    You are afraid of the person becoming a murderer, but what says that the effect of medicins and psychologists wouldn't trigger such a reaction instead?
    Maybe you should ask yourself why you are creating this threatening hypothetical situation.
    Why is becoming a labrat more appealing than seeing a medium? Are mediums really that scary?
    And yes, "insanity" is a true source of inspiration. I have not yet met one sane person, so I have more or less stopped believing in them.

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  20. Oli Heute der Enteteich... Registered Senior Member

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    If he is already listening to the voices then they have some influence.
    I didn't say they would have control, I said they would give some justification. But as for external influence being stronger than internal, Nazi Germany as one example, gives some insight towards that answer, not all people have the the same strength of will or self-identity.Yes medicines might have the same effect. That's one reason I would put myself in a lab. The other, MAIN, reason I would rather be in a lab rather than see a medium is that the lab may find out exactly what it is. If it's a medical condition it may not be curable or ameliorable. If it is then I may be cured or help them develop techniques or medicines that could help others. If it did turn out to be invisible purple fairies then we may find a way for everyone to communicate, thus removing the stigma of hearing voices and opening us up to a new experiences.
    I create hypothetical situations to test hypotheses, some threatening, some thoroughly enjoyable, some emotionally neutral. Life is full of "what ifs", life is a series of "what ifs".
    And I meant that my own clinical certifiable insanity is funny to me, should I ever be diagnosed as such.
     
  21. Bebelina kospla.com Valued Senior Member

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    Well Oli, it's just different ways of approaching things, what if this is right and that is wrong, nobody really knows.

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    It's morning here and I must go to sleep..yes, nightowl.
     
  22. Oli Heute der Enteteich... Registered Senior Member

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    Goodnight, there's about three hours before morning here. Sleep well
     
  23. Darkclouds Registered Member

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    Beb -

    I concede that however we may choose to define the voices does not change the fact that the person with Schizophrenia experiences voices etc in a very real way.

    I don’t think that current treatment for Schizophrenia includes telling the patient that they are insane. I don’t think telling them to stop listening to the voices is either - I DO think they are and should be encouraged to ignore the voices for reasons of common sense and safety and I do also think its vital to guide the person with Schizophrenia to consider the event as not real but rather what it is...an audio hallucination caused by a brain disorder. This is beneficial in several ways. It helps the person focus on real life issues and needs. It helps give them control and a means to fight back by accepting the experiences not real, and therefore rather then being ignored it can simply not be believed. In fact I don’t think there is anything wrong with having an internal dialog with the voice and fighting back - telling the voice it’s not real, rationalizing with it. Once the dialog is over and the person is unharmed after not giving into the impulses to act on anything they realize the voices cant hurt them in the physical world. This helps to overcome and control fear they may have. Another benefit of rationalizing with the voices is simply that exercising rational...if you use it it will improve. Along with the other voices they may hear they need to listen their own inner voice of reason and be guided by that. So by facing the realities of their situation they are given the tools they need to cope with it and control it.

    - and good night u two sleep well.
     

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