Aliens - A Question.

Synaesthesia,
I am in no way promoting the nexus magazine. It just so happens that they have the extract of CoEvolution on their website. The author of CoEvolution has nothing to do with Nexus, they are just the "retailer".This book is one of many that they sell. So please ignore any articles you read there. They have nothing to do with the book. Even though, I like to read other peoples opinions, and just because I don't agree with certain views, my mind's not closed to the posibilities...
Dolphin

 

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DataBob,
Lets look at that posibility...
Then why did I have markings on my body that nobody (even in the medical field) could explain? This wasn't the only incident, there were others, this was just the one that convinced me. You could be right, but what do you think explains the markings? I am not trying to convince anyone,(especialy Synaesthesia), I guess I just need help figuring it all out.
Dolphin

 

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And one more thing...
By saying that CoEvolution was one of the best book I have ever read, I don't mean that I believe everything that's written there. I mean that it gave me a different view on things and made me look at all this in different light. It was very thought provoking.
That's all folks
Dolphin

 

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I don't want to be nosy, but... What kind of markings?

Are they like burns, random or fractal in shape, or are they shaped more as if they were formed intentionally...?

Is there more to your story than you have said?


--------------------------------------(?)

 

"Lets look at that posibility... Then why did I have markings on my body that nobody (even in the medical field) could explain? This wasn't the only incident, there were others, this was just the one that convinced me. You could be right, but what do you think explains the markings? I am not trying to convince anyone,(especialy Synaesthesia), I guess I just need help figuring it all out."

Dolphin, I can't (of course) make a definitive judgement as to the nature of your experience. I'm sure that you will understand if I fail to be totally credulous in cases of alien abduction in light of the extensive history of fakery and ignorance that the UFO culture has displayed. I’m not calling you ignorant but there is very real possibility that you are reading too much into your experiences.

Having visions at night is not an uncommon experience. Nor is, for that matter, taking dreams and hallucinations too seriously. (eg. People actually believing that they saw aliens/god(s)/elves while under the influence of various tryptamines or anti-chlorogenics). Millions of people have scars that they don't remember getting. The vast majority of them don't believe they have been abducted or contacted by aliens.

Less then 2% of UFO sightings are unexplained. Generally this is because of a lack of evidence. If, in the absence of evidence, you want to assume that there are aliens flying about abducting farmers by the thousands, go ahead. The same standards can be used to prove anything at all.

An interesting cultural phenomena is that UFOs (Any seemingly flying object which has not been identified by the observer.) have the same name as UFOs (alien spacecraft). It doesn't seem significant, merely being a matter of meaning, but it accounts for the beliefs of a great many people that I know personally. (From what I have seen on the part of “UFOlogists” or whatever they’re calling themselves now, this is widely true.) Interesting that flying saucers are taken so much more seriously because of a trick of semantics.

Here's some quotes from skepdic.com on the topic:

"There are as many photographs of UFOs as there are of the Loch Ness Monster, and they are of equal quality: blurs and forgeries. Other physical evidence, such as alleged debris from alien crashes, or burn marks on the ground from alien landings, or implants in noses or brains of alien abductees, have turned out to be quite terrestrial, including forgeries. The main reasons for believing in UFOs are the testimony of many people, the inability to distinguish science fiction from science, the ability to trust incompetent men telling fantastic stories, the ability to distrust all contrary sources as being part of an evil conspiracy to withhold the truth, and a desire for contact with the world above. In short, belief in UFOs is akin to belief in God."

Regards,
Synaesthesia (Tim)
"Superstition is simply a derogative term for a belief about the supernatural that you don't share."
-Wendy Kaminer

 

DataBob
There were always 2 sort of like pinpricks, that were very deep and realy hurt. They were also itchi. They woould bleed heavily but then always dissapear usualy within 1/2 hour of me waking up. They were NOT bite marks that could be explained. Also they were mostly on my legs.
Dolphin

 

Sunchild,

Well, I have seen strange things in the sky but that doesn't mean I think it's an alien ship come across the galaxy to stick probes inside human beings. In fact, that's a rather large and arrogant assumption, but not surprising, for humans over the millenia have longed to believe in otherworldly beings to help explain the mysteries in their lives.

There's nothing wrong with this, but if we really want to be serious and objective and rational beings, then we need to examine the evidence of UFO contact, and frankly, there is none. No evidence of alien bodies, or crashed ships, or tools, or any other strange, exotic matter not of this world.

What we do have is a long cultural, historical, and psychological undercurrent of fear, mistrust and superstition of things WE DO NOT UNDERSTAND. My own feeling is that most so-called "abductions" are nothing more than memory/sleep manifestations brought on by stress, mental illness or other psychological trauma.

Does that make it wrong to believe that aliens are trying to contact us? Of course not. But we should try to keep in mind the distinctions between science and fanstasy, and address these issues accordingly.

[This message has been edited by einsteinsdream (edited November 25, 2000).]

 

synaesthesia,
You seem to have a fascinating story. Do you have any other details?

 

Einsteinsdream

Things do happen to people while in the waking state and they do have alot of stress in their lives or suffer with mental illnesses.

About 8 years ago, I was going to do my house cleaning like I do everyday and I looked at the clock to see how much time I had before I had to start supper. It was 1:30 and I
turned my head for a second and looked at the clock again and it said 3. I thought to myself, what the heck happened, did I just stand here for an hour and a half and black out. That was the most horrible feeling I had ever had in my life, missing an 1 1/2, and no clue to what happened. My house work wasn't done, so I didn't black out and do my house work.

I just let it go and tried not to think about it. Then a couple of other things happened when I was home alone. I would pass out where I was standing and then wake up in my bed. These things only happen for about 4 months and then they stopped. I have no memory of anything happening, like alien abduction. But now I've been trying medition and relaxation techneques to see if I can remember anything. No luck, I just fall asleep and have stupid dreams. Around the same time I had seen 2 ufo's with other witnesses. But I never told anyone what had happened to me, I was afraid they would laugh in my face.

My 47 year old sister seen her first ufo a month ago. My sister and her son seen 2 objects in the sky flying around this cloud and the other clouds where moving west while this one cloud was moving east that the 2 ufo's where flying around. Her son told her that him and his friends had seen things in the sky before, but they don't tell anyone.

Alot of people do see ufo's and they are never reported, because people don't want to be labelled as crazy or nuts.

 

Well, Dolphin, my theory doesn't explain why you would find such markings on you... At least not that I can imagine...
And, Synasthaesia... That memory lapse sounds quite terrifying. Although it should be noted that I have no or little expertise in the field of Neurology or Quantum Physics, your experiences suggest to me one of two possibilities:
Perhaps your memory has already been played with somehow, and these lapses are side-effects of that. As if something has already been erased, and your missing time is like a hiccup, like some bad reflex of the mind, to cause further erasures at random times.
Or, as my other strange idea I proposed to Dolphin suggests, maybe you are actually moving forward in time.

I should say I partially agree with Einstiensdream. I don't really know if Extraterrestrial life really has visited this planet. (And I've never had any experiences to compare with Dolphin's marks or your missing hours.) I think it has, but I certainly can't prove it myself. I'm just proposing theories and possibilities, if only to give people food for thought to discover the truth.

-DataBob

 

Einsteinsdream

Where did you get the idea that there is no evidence for UFOs? The very opposite is the case and I'm geting pretty tired of debukers (I refuse to call them sceptics) try to deny this.

It almost makes me too weary to bother replying just in case. However, which are you sceptic or debunker?

And another thing.(Possibly not directed at you I might add) In my opinion a good deal of people who profess to be sceptics only say this tot ry and sound like they are clued up on the subject when in fact they are basically ignorant of many of the true facts.

The simple fact is that if you put the best evidence for UFOs forward and under the microscope, then it's impossible for debukers to explain it all away with a thoery that sounds remotely plausible. Don't give me that Venus or weather balloon crap. That's right, I called it evidence and I'm sure gonna stand by that. There a huge amount of it in the shape of eye witness testimony, radar contacts, ground traces, photos, videos etc.

Personally, I think people who are aware of all the facts and still try to dismiss it are just plain daft. Maybe that's a bit harsh. At least they bothered to find out the truth. A better way of looking at it is to say that some people won't believe anything to do with subject until they see it for themselves. People like this have always been around and over the course of history they've been constantly proven wrong by scientists and others who weren't so closed minded.

 

“Where did you get the idea that there is no evidence for UFOs? The very opposite is the case and I'm geting pretty tired of debukers (I refuse to call them sceptics) try to deny this.”

You’re right Spadge. There is lots of evidence for UFO’s. There is also MOUNTAINS of evidence that pyramids were actually devices designed for gathering energy. There is ENDLESS evidence for every religion on earth including the ones that contradict each other. There is evidence that the flapping of angel’s wings is the source of wind.

Then again... It all comes down to how we define evidence. Should we define it narrowly to support only what we believe? Well, that’s the strategy accepted by most people. It’s ok, you’re in good company.

Personally, if I were offered a risky medical treatment with only the assurance of hypnotist and the survivors of the treatment, I would tell them where they could shove that treatment and where they could go afterwards.

The scientist and the UFOlogist define evidence in a much different way. From a scientific perspective e, no, there is not much in the way of evidence for the belief that aliens are abducting people and mutilating cattle.

“It almost makes me too weary to bother replying just in case. However, which are you sceptic or debunker?”

If someone calls them a skeptic you could simply label them as a debunker. If they call themselves a debunker you can apply a straw man conception to their viewpoint and dismiss them out of hand. A well phrased and loaded question.

“And another thing.(Possibly not directed at you I might add) In my opinion a good deal of people who profess to be sceptics only say this tot ry and sound like they are clued up on the subject when in fact they are basically ignorant of many of the true facts.”

Such as that thousands of people are abducted every year. Well, I suppose that makes ME basically ignorant, doesn’t it?

“The simple fact is that if you put the best evidence for UFOs forward and under the microscope, then it's impossible for debukers to explain it all away with a thoery that sounds remotely plausible. Don't give me that Venus or weather balloon crap. That's right, I called it evidence and I'm sure gonna stand by that. There a huge amount of it in the shape of eye witness testimony, radar contacts, ground traces, photos, videos etc. “

Man, I wish I still had my psychology textbook. I had some statistics as to the reliability of witnesses identifying crime suspects. Not very impressive I might add. Furthermore, if I want to identify an unidentified object, i’m NOT going to rely on farmer bob to correctly identify aircraft, weather balloons and shooting stars. I’ll call in an expert who knows what they look like. If the expert cannot explain the event it could be through lack of personal knowledge, mankind’s general lack of knowledge, lack of evidence or countless other reasons. I’m NOT going to assume that it’s an alien, or even that it’s likely to be an alien anymore then I’m going to assume that it’s a flying glow-cow.

“Personally, I think people who are aware of all the facts and still try to dismiss it are just plain daft. Maybe that's a bit harsh. At least they bothered to find out the truth. A better way of looking at it is to say that some people won't believe anything to do with subject until they see it for themselves. People like this have always been around and over the course of history they've been constantly proven wrong by scientists and others who weren't so closed minded.”

Scientists don’t aim to prove anything wrong. It’s clear you know little of the empirical method or of the skeptical standpoint.

------------------
Regards,
Tim (Synaesthesia)
Memento, homo, quia pulvis es.

 

I just want to add in here somewhere that I don't really see all the value in evidence. I mean, it would certainly be good to have some, but it just seems, more than ever, that the truth is in the eye of the beholder. It doesn't matter if someone shot down a saucer with a pistol, loaded it onto a truck, hauled the thing right to me and personally introduced me to the aliens inside... There's always going to be some way for me to say that it's fake. And if I'm an overly debunking person, that's probably what I'll do.

Even if there is absolutely no evidence other than Farmer Bob's testimony, these reports of UFOs should at least be considered, or something....

I suppose I'm really writing this as a means to show off my theory of Unknowable Reality... Aw, never mind, nobody ever goes for it anyway. :\


-DataBob

 

Synaesthesia

“Scientists don’t aim to prove anything wrong. It’s clear you know little of the empirical method or of the skeptical standpoint.”

I’m quite well aware of emphirical methods and I didn’t mean that scientists prove things wrong in that way. I’m pretty sure that you know what my statement is saying. I’m talking about the visionaries who were scoffed at for their ideas until they finally managed to prove that their theory was correct or that their invention worked etc.

As to the rest of your reply, you seem to have made a number of sweeping assumptions as to what I believe UFOs to be, animal mutilations, alien abductions etc. Where did I say that thousands of abductions occur every year? Nowhere as far as I’m aware.

I don’t know what UFOs are and I don’t necessarily believe the common belief that they are alien spacecraft. However, much as the sceptics try to tell us otherwise, it is a possibility that has to be considered. Anybody who disagrees with this is dead wrong.

 

Because I'm a female, no one want's to talk to me? And Dave, why did I get kicked off this message board? I'm not man enough!!!!!

 

It seems to me that the present UFO debate--what are they? where do they come from?, etc, can never really be settled to anyone's satisfaction, at least not yet, and certainly not until we have some more hard facts available to examine.

I know some of you will disagree with me on this. Some of you think we already have enough evidence--pictures, witness reports, etc--to stake your claim to alien intrusions. I respectfully disagree, since I consider the "evidence" circumstantial, ambiguious, and subject to various interpretations.

Having said that, let me add that my skepticism or doubts or debunking--whatever you want to call it--is not centered on the assumption that strange things are in the sky, and they do not seem to be your standard Boeing 767s. As I said, I have seen a flying object I cannot explain, and the abundance of witnesses who similarily agree seems to suggest that beyond normal astronomical phenomenna, there are strange things happening outside of understood and accepted human experience.

As I also said, I believe the universe is humming with life, but no one, to my knowledge, as yet produced as scientific evidence a lifeform not of this earth. And the fact is, contrary to what some of you have suggested, that facts--empirically produced evidence of an unambiguous nature--is still the basis for truth and confirmation in our system of science.

Clearly, some of you are willing to disparage the truth to perpetuate your interests--nothing new in this; it's a grand tradition in the battle between fact and fantasy, and frankly, good hard science usually wins in the end.

Or is the earth still flat?

Let's stop the name-calling and examine these issues with rigor and objectivity. I would be more than happy to debate the meaning and source of UFOs . . . all I ask is a fair accounting of healthy skepticism on both sides. And frankly, if you can't understand the meaning and importance of objectivity in this debate, then you need to grow up and find another hobby.

 

I saw a TV show on this topic. This one family said they saw silver figures zooming around outside. The father and the older brothers went outside with their guns. As one of the brothers went out the door, one of the silver figures was on top of the roof and grabbed him by his hair and lifted him off the ground. So all of his other brothers and their father started shooting at the silver figures. The mother and the younger ones were inside watching out the window. They had seen the aliens in the middle of dinner, so some of the younger ones were still eating. Some of the silver figures were trying to get inside. But the mother kept them out. Suddenly, the silver figures all started glowing and they flew off. Some residents in that area reported similar sightings. That must have really scary. We don't know if it was true, or not. But we suspect it might be because of a number of people who lived in that area had reported similar sightings.

 

Everyone,
I just want to say I believe there is more than enough evidence to show that
1) these craft are under intelligent control 2) U.S. and other foreign intelligence have confirmed the technology is far and I mean far from any countries on earth period. Seriously most people I talk to or debate the issue with in person have really no idea about the subject. There is currently over 200 military officials briefing congress on the UFO issue telling them the people have the right to know the truth about our extraterrestrial "friends". I think the time has come to wake up and see that there has been a massive cover up, this has already been established. Just because this subject scares people doesn't mean we should disregard the evidence circumstancial or otherwise because if we do then what good is the justice system and for that matter the U.S.We might as well let everyone out of prisons because they didn't do anything wrong. We have to accept the problem before we can do something about it.

 

Tim,
I video tape a loved one of yours getting attacked and get a good clean shot of the face of the assailant.
Would this video evidence stand up in court?
I have security camera footage of an armed robber stealing money from a stores cash register. The video gets a clear and clean shot of the robbers face.
Would this evidence stand up in court?
I have video footage of an unidentified object doing quite remarkable manouvers and the footage was taken from a defence force aircraft. We get an amazingly clear shot of the object. It outruns and out-manouvers the aircraft with ease and the aircraft loses sight of it. It was all recorded on film.
Would this stand up in court?....or did we just cross the looney line .....

Dave
<img src="http://www.nitrodigital.com/exo/dave.gif"

 

"I have video footage of an unidentified object doing quite remarkable manouvers and the footage was taken from a defence force aircraft. We get an amazingly clear shot of the object. It outruns and out-manouvers the aircraft with ease and the aircraft loses sight of it. It was all recorded on film. Would this stand up in court?....or did we just cross the looney line ....."

Ok, NOW we're getting somewhere. Now, you'll have to bear with me here because I suppose I'm not as smart as you guys. How does the quality of being unidentified make an object the result of extra-terrestrial origin?


GenBLT:
“We don't know if it was true, or not. But we suspect it might be because of a number of people who lived in that area had reported similar sightings.”

I remember seeing this one episode of unsolved mysteries where an entire town saw a massive aircraft. According to unsolved mysteries the air traffic controllers were as baffled as the rest of the town. “Aliens? You decide.” they concluded after establishing just what they wanted the viewer to think.

I was appalled at the skeptic’s inability to see the obvious. How much more clear did the proof have to be? The aliens are visiting earth.

A few months later I learned that the very case which unsolved mysteries did an episode on wasn’t much of a mystery. A group of pilots had been flying in tight formation. I can’t remember the details but I do recall that the case was solved well before the television show was aired. The pilots, if I recall correctly, were charged with mischief.

This of course proves nothing except that even the most compelling and mysterious evidence may very well have earthly origins. There is no need to invoke supernatural or extra-terrestria agency in order to explain bewildering occurrences.

Regards,
synaesthesia