(i dont have a proper computer so cant present this the way i would like to, but heyyyy....): 'The Evolution of Dualism (Zoroastrianism) Evil God & His Divine Minions, Darkness <<<<<<>>>>>>>>>> Good God & His Divine Minions, Light/Fire (Gnostic Christianity) Evil God & His Demons, Darkness, MATTER, Sensuality, Falsehood <<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>> Good God & His Angels, Light/Fire, SPIRIT, Ascetism, Truth (Medieval Christianity/Islam) Satan/Shaitan Demons, Darkness, MATTER, sensuality, Women, Ambiguity, Chaos, Falsehood <<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jehova/Allah Angels, Light, SPIRIT, Asceticism, Men, Clarity, Order, Truth (Scientific Materialism) Superstition & Stagnation, SPIRIT, sensuality, Women, Ambiguity, Chaos, Falsehood <<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Science & Progress, MATTER, Asceticism, Men, Clarity, Order, Truth' LOOK at the hugely dramatic reversal from 'SPIRIT' to 'MATTER' as Scientific materialism hits the scene! what else do you glean from lookin at above chart-pattern?
Hey Duendy, nice list, chart , table or what ever you wish to call it. I think I see where you are going with the train of thought and wish to encourage you. I tend to believe that it was the event when man evolved into a state where by he could look into a puddle of water and see his reflection and say unto himself " Hey man, dat's me in there!!!" To then evolve into a sentient being that has self awareness only by reflection off others, the reality around him and his image in a mirror. Immediately we have a dualistic state of "me and my reflection" The bible then was created to emphasise such with "Man was created in Gods image" So I would contend that dualism is an outcome of intelligence [ sentience ] which is an outcome of a greater self awareness. Non-sentient animals are not necessarilly capable of realising that the image in a mirror is themselves and then move onto a higher degree of introspection. Thus sentience is how we manipulate what we reflect off. "I see a lump of wet "clay"....hmmmm what can I do with that?" then moulding the clay to reflect our imagination and creativity. So the evolution of dualism is directly linked to the evolution of self awareness and intelligence. IMO Animals of lesser intelligence exist purely on intuition and instinct [ common definitions - please] Where as mankind not only does this but mitigates their instinctive/intuitive behavious with intelligence born of reflective self awareness. Thus dualism is a necessary function of intelligence. "I see my body...hmmmm....what can I do with that" then manipulating the body to reflect our imagination and creativity. So if you have a gripe about dualism blame the mirror......'tis all it's fault..... Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
hmmm, tis subject actually desrves more than wisecraky quick quips....was very suprised the litte attention ishad got previousoly........can we not see the utterly dramatic swapping of 'matter' and 'spirit' as materialistic science hits the scene...? this has no interst for you'll....? where ya at???? what i also see is. that if you look at the dualism in the Age of Religion you notice veryclearly that SENSUALITY is psychologically/physiologically separated from 'spirit'.....!....ie., meaning a dualism between 'spirit' and Nature/body/emotions/feelings/eroticism now look at when materialistic dismisses 'spirit' altogther and promotes the primacy of 'matter'.....where is sensuality? why it is STILL in the 'bad' category. so we are seeing the same ongoing mainatance of tis dualism between Nature, Body and 'spirit'/'mind' so....you dont think this is no big deal? how come?
Duendy, I think you need to define "spirit". Also I feel dualism is a necessary outcome and will always be the reality of things. Possibly the extremes with in a dualistic state could be explored and show how we have tended towards a more materialistic form of dualism. The thing worth noting is that with the advent of science we know more about the physical world including our bodies and human behaviour than ever before. Just about every aspect of the human condition is the inspiration of milllions of words and discussions. This means that the room for the intangible has become crowded out some what as our raging intellects disect every aspect. In other words our heads are full of more thoughts and less feelings. We spend more time thinking rather than feeling. Possibly this is what you are referring to, I am not sure. Years ago I decided as a way of affirmative action, to avoid using the words "I Think" and use the words "I feel" in conversation. It was amazing the difference it made. Proving that the words you use can have a profound effect on self.
yes, i try to remember to do that too. it was Rene Descartes and his infamous 'I think therefore i am' which promoted even more that alienated mindset, and has plagued Western civilization and hence the world--seeing the West's dominane--for the last 400 long years
Actually I feel that what you are describing can be easilly demonstrated in the current musical and dance fashions that our teenagers are enjoying at the moment. Trance, techno, rap,digitalised, monotonous, rhythms. Electronically composed and digitally mastered music. Never touching anyone, or dancing close etc....emotional disattachment, extreme individualisation and emotional isolation. The loss of the heart in music and dance is quite profound. Of course this is an over generalisation. But if you ever get a chance to witness a modern dance party it can easilly be seen what the trend is. Our ability to express ourselves seems to be evolving in to a digitally finite form instead of the infinite form that used to be present. Another good example I noticed was the advent of the digital watch. I bought this digital water proof watch years ago and later it dawned on me that I was watching the seconds more than I did with an analogue watch. [ sorry if I am mixing terms here] When someone asked me for the time when I had an anologue watch [ watch with hands] I used to automatically round off the time and say "oh it's about a quarter past 10" sort of thing. Now though it is more like "Oh it's 13 minutes past 10" and at the same time notice the seconds as well. So it could be said that we are more conscious of time in a very finite form. It is also worth noting that at work every second was being accounted for where as in the past it was usually blocks of 5 minutes. So the pace of society has become more concise, more rapid and certainly more stressed. No time to feel anything, only time to do and think in utilitarianistic ways. No time for heart, only time for "math" Thinking more about utility than heart value of that utility. So Duendy you are quite correct when you say that we are dis-associating ourselves from our emotion being and teaching our children to do the same. In another thread I made the comment that as a race we have evolved intellectually way ahead of our emotional evolution. Sort of leap-frogging as our emotional evolution catches up and then falls behind again....when it should be the other way round. Emotional evolution should always precede intellectual. Thus the intellectual evolution would be properly supported as it matures, by those emotions and the leap-frogging effect would be diminished. Thus the evolution of wisdom [heart] supports the intellectual evolution thus allowing us not only to be intelligent but act in an intelligent way. Any ways...just some thoughts and observations....
Firstly, I want to say for our readers that I have much faith in our youth. I do not for a minute believe that they or we for that matter can not over come any troubles that this recent spurt of intellectual evolution has and will create [last 150 years] Suffice to say that this recent spurt has placed some significant strains on the "dualistic" relationship between emotion and intellect. It is unfortunate that some have suffered enormously because of our lack of "self care" or in other words our lack of prioritising our desire to look after our childrens and societies emotional health. Too much focus has been placed on the intellectual side [ including money] IMO and not enough is devoted to emotional supports. I have attended various concerts and performances that our teens and young adults [18-24] put together and they have been most inspirational as to affording confidence for their futures. So it is not in my opinion all doom and gloom but more about struggle and how necessary that struggle may be. Secondly, it is also tempting to focus on a minority group thus diminishing the ability to take a more global perspective. For years I have been researching the plight of those that have serious challenges [ mental health industry] and it is easy to tunnel ones vision [perspective] so to speak and tar every person with it's colouration. The last 150 years or so has seen such huge change in humanity, changes ranging across every spectrum of society. From the arts to science, from relationships, sexuality to sport, from community based religion to individual based philosophies. Not a single aspect of humanity has escaped this evolution. It is little wonder that some will fail to cope with changes that have occured. But if one wants to take an over-view one could conclude that we as a race are surviving the changes reasonably well even though we face significant challenges ahead of us that in the main we have self created. Change it self always has the potential to create suffering. As suffering is always a part of living it really comes down to the intensity rather than the fact. The greater the change the greater the potential for suffering. So in essense it comes down to our ability to manage change so that it's impact is more beneficial and "smooth". We unfortunately haven't managed our change all that well and maybe change management [ as seen in progressive businesses and their managment] needs to be considered more seriously. Now to my comment about the dance and music scene. In the field of music there was a devlopement years ago form baroque to classical to romaniticism and then on to contempory or modern contempory. Originally with baroque there was the strict structure of rigid rhythm and pace. Mathematical music created to a relativie strict logic structure in harmonies and rhythm. On to classical and then onto the more rubarto of romantic period. Then onto the less organised or subtlies of contempory. The key word in all this though is RUBARTO. It was during the romantic period that music started to become emotionally expressive. Allowing the performer greatest freedom of expression in particular regards to tempo and rhythm. Similar can be seen reflectied in our painters of the past as well. And in society in general we had similar changes. I am no historian so I'll avoid being too specific. Just a generalisation and possibly I am wrong any way. So today the music of our generation has returned in part to the monotone of strict rhythm and structures created in the main by digitalised music. On off on off, 1's and 0's, polarised about go and stop and very little in between. Yes and no being polarised and the "maybe" is no longer in vogue. The need to decide one way or the other has lead to an acute state of vigilance and the need to make decisions quickly with out the time or grace to think or feel through the issues thus affording a better decision. So the pressure to avoid the state of "I don't know" means that decision become more shortsighted and premature. Severe acuity of our reactions means that we become more reactionary and less considered. In the dance scene of some teenagers you can see this on-off go stop polarisation. Years ago life in general was a dance, every moment a movement to an inner rubarto and when actually dancing one simply moved into a partnership with someone else and agreed to share a rhythm and moment for a while and then moved on with out ever missing a step, always flowing and never polarised in to a stop/start dichotomy. The pace of life today has removed the rubarto to some extent and this I feel is where we as a society need to work on. Remove the rigidity, be more flexible and flow better. To live as a machine means we break down like a machine, and unfortunately when we break down we are a bit like Humpty Dumpty.....damm hard to fix. Humans are not digital and never have been yet this seems to be where the emphasise is being placed. Can't simply replace a chip and expect a miracle. Our minds and bodies are not founded in binary structures, as we are infinitely variable beings. Sorry for the ramble but well that's the mood of the moment.....
Hey, this is a really interesting thread. Dualism is something I'm still kinda struggling with. Just a few observations and thoughts... "Dualism as i undertand it is an outcome of IGNORANCE" - Duendy The act of making a distinction is the essential act of learning. Duality is not necessarily a reduction into polar opposites, but it is a recognition that not all things are the same. More precisely, learning is a simultaneous recognition of both the similarities and differences between any given two things, events or ideas. *Not* being able to differentiate in this way is ignorance-- for example, if you were ignorant about cars, your lack of knowledge is a lack of clear and distinct ideas which together and separately delineate various types of vehicles, models, brands, years--all these varieties made possible by distinguishing different possible combinations (e.g., a '97 Ford Ranger) of fundamental parts (4.0-liter V6 engine, automatic transmission, periwinkle blue vinyl seats, etc.) These parts are not necessarily a unity with each other, but in terms of the scope of the discussion (cars) a car engine is fundamental, a singularity. Recognizing differences between occurences of fundamentals is how we reduce our ignorance about a subject. Ignorance about football is the inability to distinguish between different kinds of occurences in a football game. Learning relates to properties (the qualities an object possesses, the sensual and emotional associations with phenomena) and classes (the mental constructions and patterns we use to organize thought.) Perhaps, though, you intend by 'ignornace' a lack of *understanding* and not just of learning, or making increasingly sophisticated distinctions. Understanding, as the counterpart to learning, is the grasping of an origin, or a conscious recognition of a unity (as opposed to a dualism.) "the'observer'--in te dualist mode--objectifies the observed, and hence a psychological split between itself and Nature." Certainly we are never outside a system; the experimenter is always part of the experiment. The fence of assumptions we attempt to build around reality ultimately contains us as well. But conversation, dialogue, the gaze of the other--these relations are not simply an objectification (though all too often it becomes that way) cannot be reduced into a dualism. Conversation is open-ended: I cannot completely reduce this person in front of me into an object since they can question my objectification of them! This is not a dualism or a totality containing us; we need not be trapped amidst thesis and anithesis, since the other person is nature, external reality, yet they breach the totality I attempt to build by looking at me and speaking to me out of *their* reality. OK, I meant to get to more of the comments but I'm tired Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! This is a cool thread, be looking forward to hear what you guys say
"Dualism as i undertand it is an outcome of IGNORANCE" - Duendy Maybe Duendy may like to elaborate on what is meant by ignorance?? Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
yes, ignorance means ignore-ance. I.e, in in te way i a using it, ignore-ing relation-ships. so let's take 'dark' and 'light'--as I feel this is one of te most fundamental and oldest dualities. In reality-living dynaic reality, what is our experience of light and dark...? It is a cyclic movement is't it. a gradual ....ever so subtly living movement, And light and dark aren't two opposing entities. The anceint philosophical Taoist Tao Te Ching uses the metaphor of light and dark on a mountain, to point to te COMPLIMENTARITY of light and dark As Alan Watts pointed out, the Chinese philosophicl Taoism--unlike othe patriarchal mythologies--understood polar related extremes like light and dark to NOT be in any confilct, but to 'arise mutually', wth the insight that it is an absurdity to believe you could have one polar reality withot its complimentary With Zoroastrianism, however, we have te mythological concept of dark and ligt in an eternal conflict. Thar belief system has influenced many other mythologies including Judaic Christianity, Islam, Eastern mysticism......whee we are indoctrinated the idea one can have light wiout dark so this is what i mean by ignore-ance. it is ignoring relationship. ignoring the interrloated dynamic living process of life death regeneration also, i recommend you also check out very anceint myth of The Two Brothers and the Goddess. This was the metaphor of two brother , one representing the Dark/Night/dark prt of year andte other the Light/Day/light part of year, who both vie for te love of the Goddess..........quite a lovely story...BUT it later gets distorted when te dark brother becomes demonized. so ten we get ignore-ance as dark brother becomes a scapegoat.....hnce 'Set', the 'Devil' etc Mytholoy in its essence is talking deeply to you, me, her, him.....but when tis understanding becomes divisive propaganda, we ignore its relationship to the Deeper understand of te inerelationsip of reality. andtis very ignore-nce gos deep into US. we begin scaegoating OUR deep, which becomesseen to be'dark', and 'evil' etc........so we ignore our deep---fear it---ten project it out, and then wanto to scapegaot what we believe is evil. the nazi times are an infamous awful illustration of tis ignore-ance in action! and that mindset it still very much with us!
QQ: You're definitely on to something here. A few comments.... "Too much focus has been placed on the intellectual side [ including money] IMO and not enough is devoted to emotional supports." I think, on the contrary, we (Americans, and I know it's an assumption) live in a profoundly anti-intellectualistic society... but as far as that goes, are you saying that the drive to make money is more intellectual than emotional? Or are you saying we lose ourselves in the anonymity of money and intellectual activities like thinking and writing (which are required for middle class kind of jobs,) where we should be given and giving more unconditional love (i.e., paying attention to our emotional side?) And where does the physical aspect of money come into play--actual notes exchanged for real goods which allow us to acquire the necessities of survival? "Change it self always has the potential to create suffering." But that's just the negative side of change. Raw change is just *difference* from a previous state or set of circumstances; for any given societal change, it is just as likely to cause suffering and pain as it is to cause happiness and pleasure. Change itself is neither good nor bad; the *direction* of the change -- whether it is a regress or a progress -- is the factor which contributes to happiness or suffering. "We unfortunately haven't managed our change all that well and maybe change management [ as seen in progressive businesses and their managment] needs to be considered more seriously." For change to be smooth, we mustn't be afraid of making a leap, but make our changes in the full knowledge that it is just as likely for any given change that we will gain from it as lose from it. Business managers tend to be social conservatives, that is, protected by the status quo and relatively insulated from minor changes, although by their function in society subservient to the dominant modes of production and prevailing consumer trends. "The key word in all this though is RUBARTO." Rubato means 'robbed time'; it means that the melody line slows down within a measure relative to the chord progression, but speeds up so that after a certain number of beats they are once again in time. It has a profoundly emotional effect. It's not quite the same thing as syncopation, which is the shifting of an expected accent (which also has a quite emotional, toe-tapping effect.) Some electronic music is monotonous rhythmically, but some of it is syncopated and some of it even uses robbed time. But I'm not sure it's any less music for this reason, or any more "polarised about go and stop and very little in between"-- even if a rhythm is steady and unchanging, the melody *will* be changing. Techno is about transitions, about building tension and releasing it, about creating sounds that are impossible to create traditionally, about expanding the horizons of what is possible with music.
