Turn the other cheek or practice self-defense.

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by Cris, Nov 23, 2005.

  1. c20H25N3o Shiny Heart of a Shiny Child Registered Senior Member

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    Actually if you read my posts you will see that there is no disagreement (or at least I don't think there is)

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  3. Adstar Valued Senior Member

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    What if He had to. If He wanted to achieve His will?



    Do you think God's sole purpose in being is in relation to the universe and humanity? That’s very Creation centered thinking of you isn't it? Do you think the universe is the only concern of God? What if God created the Universe in response to something that was going on within existence before He created the universe?



    Again you’re thinking is creation centric. God had to meet lucifer's challenge. ( i put down a paragraph here but decided to delete it. Speculation is dangerous)



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    Give up, you will never achieve this goal.


    All Praise The Ancient Of Days
     
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  5. Adstar Valued Senior Member

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    C20

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    Yes we agree on many things but we also disagree on things also. I do not doubt your experience in faith. Your testimony on how God intervened in your life. Nor do i doubt your sincerity in seeking to grow in the knowledge of The love of the Truth. I must clarify the differences between you and i in this issue. I have hope that you will be open to conviction and that the Spirit will talk to your heart through me in this post.


    Can you not see how the powers that be can exploit this belief and expand it into a national setting? The thief comes in to take possession and to attack and you will strike a blow? To defend what? Your goods? Mammon? Your fleshly life?

    What happens if you die, being a believer in The Messiah Jesus where would you be in eternity?

    What would happen to the thief if you killed him/her? Do you know they would be with God in eternity? Or would you just hope they where right with God?

    Why no give up your material things that have no eternal value? Why not even give up your flesh life, another thing that has no eternal value? Why do people who know of eternity fight and kill of things that have no eternal value?




    Yes evil men know how easy it is to use the emotions of people to induce fear and motivate them to do all kinds of evil.

    Ever since the Messiah came back to life on the third day after his execution all of humanity has been invited to accept him as the Messiah, to have their sins forgiven through his grace so as to be acceptable to exist in the presence of The Ancient Of Days for eternity. This Invitation is open to all people until the moment of their deaths.

    When we kill others who haven’t accepted our Messiah we are denying them the chance for redemption that The Ancient Of Days has offered them through the Messiah. We sinners who are saved by grace have no right to kill others for the sins that they do.

    To defend or avenge ourselves may be our human notion of what is good or just but once the Messiah was raised from the dead The Ancient Of Days provided a route to eternity for sinners that did away with justice. If The Ancient Of Days used justice to determine who would enter into eternity with Him would we have any chance of entering it? I can be assured in myself that without the grace of the Messiah I would burn.

    So if we are followers of The Messiah we shall attempt to overcome evil with good and not allow ourselves to be overcome by evil by joining in their game. Love and the Word are the only weapons our Messiah has given us to use.

    When we understand these things we then know why we are told to turn thy cheek, love thy enemy, do not avenge yourselves and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you. It no longer sounds like foolishness, for The Ancient Of Days has made the wisdom of man as nothing He reaches out to ALL men. How then can we kill one to whom The Ancient Of Days is reaching out for, in Love?

    Is it not better to accept death and give the murder a chance to later accept Jesus as Messiah and meet up with them in eternity for a hug.

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    Jesus wished this on His murderers "forgive them lord for they do not know what they do" Jesus accepted His death, an act of love that would save some of the men that murdered Him.

    All Praise The Ancient Of Days
     
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  7. c20H25N3o Shiny Heart of a Shiny Child Registered Senior Member

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    Nope, not goods but my 4 children and my wife.

    Cowards don't go to heaven. It would be cowardly to let an attacker hurt my children without stepping in to at least try and prevent it.

    Not my problem. Let God judge both them and I according to our actions. According to God's word, if the worst did happen and the theif did die, I am not to feel guilty. Sounds fair enough to me.

    Because as a man who has taken a wife and who has had children, I must concern myself with the affairs of this world. I am a provider for others.

    I have no intention of fighting or killing. However I am not going to be as cowardly as to run and hide when the thief comes leaving my family to defend themselves. I don't give a monkies for the stuff in my house that as you say have no eternal value, however seeing a crow bar up against my wifes throat whilst I peek from inside a wardrobe would be a cowardly act that would stay with me for eternity.

    For myself maybe. Facing an armed attacker could even give my family a chance to escape whilst I am killed. Can you not see that I am prepared to put my life at risk so that they can be free?

    peace

    c20
     
  8. Einstuck Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    169
    The question of going to war for Christians was answered quite well by the Anglican Primate at the beginning of the Iraqi War when he restated the famous 'Just War Principles'. These clearly define the Iraqi War as UNJUST.

    For a clear explanation of the Just War Principles and an update, go here:

    Just War Syndrome
     
  9. Adstar Valued Senior Member

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    Then you value this life in the flesh more than you value your eternal live. So be it. See we are not brothers in faith C20. I was right. I have no brothers in faith in this forum.


    All Praise The Ancient Of Days
     
  10. stretched a junkie's broken promise Valued Senior Member

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    Quote Jenyar:
    "As long as you believe in a God who takes pleasure in people's suffering and pain, you won't be able to see eye to eye with any Christian, because that's not the God we believe in and have come to know. We believe in the God who said:

    Ezek. 18:32 I do not want anyone to die," says the Sovereign LORD. "Turn away from your sins and live."

    * This God also said:
    "When they came to the threshing floor of Nodan, Uzzah reached out his hand to the ark of God to steady it, for the oxen were making it tip. But the Lord was angry with Uzzah; God struck him on that spot, and he died there before God." (2 Samuel 6:3-7 NAB)

    * Unless you can explain to me how this god can say something like ... Ezek. 18:32 I do not want anyone to die," says the Sovereign LORD. "Turn away from your sins and live."

    ... and then smotes poor Uzzah for a silly reason like that, I cannot go further. It is not about what I WANT to believe, its about obviously contradictory crap. And there is lots of it. You can spin it any way you want, but in your religion, this murderous, petulant god later clones himself as a human, kills himself, raises himself up and flies off into heaven never to be seen again.
     
  11. stretched a junkie's broken promise Valued Senior Member

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    1,244
    Adstar,

    Can you see ok with that splinter?
     
  12. c20H25N3o Shiny Heart of a Shiny Child Registered Senior Member

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    2,017
    c20:Can you not see that I am prepared to put my life at risk so that they can be free?

    Adstar:Then you value this life in the flesh more than you value your eternal live.

    John 15:13
    Greater love has no man than this, that he lay down his life for his friends.

    But you would hide in the wardrobe whilst your family were murdered???? You wouldn't risk your life trying to prevent their murder? How brave of you!
    Tell me Adstar, if God says that you are to feel no guilt for striking a thief and the thief dies, should I turn round to God and say 'But I do feel guilty because I have no way of knowing whether that man was saved or not?'
    What do you think God would say to me? I tell you exactly what God would say, he would speak the ""truth"" which is 'You were trying to protect your family. The thief took a risk by breaking into your house. Let me be concerned with their eternal judgement as for you my grace is sufficient for you.'

    Pray you are not put to the test my friend.

    c20
     
  13. Adstar Valued Senior Member

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    3,782
    You not talking about laying down your life for your friends, Jesus did that. Your talking about killing other people for your friends. A big difference indeed.



    Ahhh the Old "Your a Coward" chestnut. That’s what i get from most "christians" who try to find a way to lash back at me for giving them the truth.

    I don't believe God would say that C20. I think He would say this:


    Luke 13
    27 But He will say, ‘I tell you I do not know you, where you are from. Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity.’


    All Praise The Ancient Of Days
     
  14. c20H25N3o Shiny Heart of a Shiny Child Registered Senior Member

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    2,017
    I am talking about facing an attacker to protect my family. Putting my life at risk in a situation I did not cause in the hope that my actions will prevent any harm coming to my children or my wife. Tell me what you would do? Would you just stand there whilst your children are looking to their daddy to protect them and say 'Sorry kids, Jesus told me to do nothing because I'll lose my place in eternity if I accidentally kill the man trying to protect you?'

    Increasingly your posts are becoming a one man stand. Like you are trying to be the most 'true' christian out there. Take your head out of Revelations for one second and look around you. If you are fishing for souls I suggest you don't just leave a bare barbed hook in the water without something good and tasty on the end of it. Your message is failing Adstar because you are too aloof. Come down with the common people, people like me.

    Nice judgement on me

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    . In your effort to burn chaff as fast as you can, be careful you do not throw out the wheat as well!

    Now answer this question ... Why did God say not to feel guilt for striking and killing a thief who breaks into your home in the middle of the night? You missed out answering that from my last post. I would like you to address it in the name of staying on topic.
    Also when the guy was mugged in the bible was it not the hated Samaritan who went to his aid whilst everyone else just kept out of the way?

    Thanks

    c20
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2005
  15. Adstar Valued Senior Member

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    3,782
    I have always stood alone in here. I don't mind standing alone. I know who stands with me.



    What.... compromise the Gospel of Jesus to win converts that will believe in a 50% discount Jesus? Will i mix in a little darkness in to make the light seem more palatable to those who take joy in unrightiousness? If i wanted a high head count i would just preach anything that the majority want. Better to bring one person to Christ then to bring a billion people to a place that falls short.



    All Praise The Ancient Of Days
     
  16. c20H25N3o Shiny Heart of a Shiny Child Registered Senior Member

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    2,017
    The point of contention here is about turning the other cheek and self defence. I pointed out that God understands the nature of self defence and I quoted from Exodus. You have consistently ignored the scripture I mentioned regarding God's wish that no one suffer guilt should they accidentally fatally harm a thief that broke in to their home. This is not a watered down Jesus. This is God's word and put into context it shows that God is for us, not against us. I am not advocating violence but neither am I advocated standing by and letting people do what they will to my family. I will seek to restrain them or prevent them. This is acceptable to both God and to me. If you think I have misinterepreted Exodus then please explain why and stop avoiding the issue.

    Thanks

    c20
     
  17. Adstar Valued Senior Member

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    You quote from Exodus i Quote from Jesus. You Quote from the law of the Old covenant I quote from the Law of Love from the New covenant. I am a Christian under grace. What are you?

    Don't you realize some things changed when The Messiah Jesus came?

    The Bible is not a smorgasbord of teachings that you can just select what you want and reject what you don't want. Decide what you want. you want to be under the Law or do you want to be under grace. You cannot jump backward and forward through the scriptures making up a faith that suits yourself. If you think what Jesus taught in the beatitudes is foolishness then so be it.


    All Praise The Ancient Of Days
     
  18. c20H25N3o Shiny Heart of a Shiny Child Registered Senior Member

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    I too am under grace.

    Not changed so much as fulfilled.

    Then this goes for the meaning of the quote from Exodus too yes? Since all scripture is good for teaching I am suprised to hear you say this to me.

    I am trying to tell you that protecting one's family, even putting your own life at risk in the process would be to uphold the law. You cannot remove a single dot from it.

    I do not think the beatitudes are foolish. If they were taken seriously by the world of men, we would not need to discuss the law, for the law is for the lawless.
    I am challenging the falsehood that you promote when you say a man ought sit by and let his family come under threat 'in the name of Jesus' when the person threatening is not attacking our family because of our belief in God. If someone slaps me on the right cheek however, challenging my faith in God, I will turn the other to show them that their agression does not affect me in the way that they hoped it would; that my faith in God stands on its own. If I were attacked because of my 'faith', I would not take up arms. However I have a duty to protect my family against petty thieves and as I have pointed out, there is no conflict in God's word with that view.

    If you were visiting the home of a child whom you knew to have a history of abuse, and you could hear the child being abused inside the house, what would you do? Stay outside and pray? Did God not give you a pair of arms and legs or a voice? Perhaps you would just curl up in the foetal position and suck your thumb and say 'hug me Jesus'. I tell you this, you would receive no hug until you intervened and prevented the harm caused by another to the little child when it was in your power to do so.

    peace

    c20
     
  19. Adstar Valued Senior Member

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    You claim i am teaching a falsehood. So be it. We will see who is true and who is false at judgement time. We will see who Jesus say "i do not know you" to.


    All Praise The Ancient Of Days
     
  20. c20H25N3o Shiny Heart of a Shiny Child Registered Senior Member

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    Man do you not see how you are? Look how willing you are to exclude people from the grace that you are under! Look how willing you are to say 'You are not my brother!'
    You have still failed to address the point I have made brother Adstar.
    You are saying God would condemn one who defended their home against an attacker. This is clearly not what God has to say on the matter. Am I speaking of vigilante behaviour? No! Am I talking about returning an eye for an eye? No! I am saying that if you were put in a position where your lack of action would lead to the pointless death of a member of your family, then you would feel guilt your whole life. God is quite specific regarding this matter. He says if you struck a thief at night and the theif died as a result of the blow then you must not feel guilty. If it is in daytime though, you would not have the same excuse because you could measure your level of restraint in the fullness of the daylight.
    It makes me incredibly sad when christians get all 'exclusive' about salvation and start creating factions among themselves. I love Jesus brother Adstar. I meditate on His word. I believe he came as a human being, was crucified, buried and rose on the third day. I rejoice in His words, particulary the beatitudes.

    God bless you

    c20
     
  21. Adstar Valued Senior Member

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    3,782
    Don't call me brother you are not my brother. Followers of The Messiah Jesus are my Brothers and Sisters. You follow what you think is right. There is not point continuing this conversation. we have said all there is to say.


    All Praise The Ancient Of Days
     
  22. duendy Registered Senior Member

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    Adstar says "I quote from the Law of Love"

    let me translate Adstar;'s 'law' of love for you...picture the meanest fukin gangsta you can....he say "right you muthafuker...love me, or i gonna throw you in that tub of fukin acid!"...THAT is adstar's 'law of love' !
     
  23. stretched a junkie's broken promise Valued Senior Member

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    Oh yeah, now I remember why there are 30 000 Christian denominations. Nevertheless I can see Adstar is just trying to emulate his god, the god of Abraham, aka Ancient of days, in his sentiment. 10 out of 10 for your patience c20!
     

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