For the anti-choice religionists, a scenario from life

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by Tiassa, Apr 1, 2002.

?

Why?

  1. God says, "Don't see each other"

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  2. God says, "Don't have sex with each other"

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  3. God says, "Don't reproduce"

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  4. Other ____????

    1 vote(s)
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  1. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    As I prepare to wander out the door to SAFECO Field to catch Seattle's Opening Day game against the ChiSox, a question has occurred to me that I can't resist asking in the short form.

    • Among other things, do anti-choice religionists still hold that abortion diminishes the value of human life?

    • Against what standard would we compare that?

    Example, drawn from life: This involves the ongoing saga of two people of very close acquaintance of mine. E and T are your run-of-the-mill unmarried couple, monogamous to our knowledge for six years running now.

    T cannot use the pill; she has never come across a contraceptive pill that does not devastate her body's necessary chemical balance. T does not like to use condoms; most brands give her an allergic latex reaction, and goat-skin condoms ... well, who isn't slightly repulsed by the nature of the things? Besides, they're not that great of condoms. There are some contraceptive options that don't have great detriment to her, but the point is that despite their best efforts, she does, occasionally, conceive. Due to Rh factor, E and T have been told that they cannot reproduce without medical assistance. This principle is, in fact, in effect at present.

    Specifically, since life begins at conception according to the anti-choice religionists, I submit the following question: having watched three accidental (unplanned) pregnancies go south due to Rh factor, resulting in the death of the embryo and, in one case, the fetus, I'm curious about why God would bless a conception with the full will of not allowing the pregnancy to gestate. In this case, God is the abortionist.

    Now, I'm all for the idea that when people can't reproduce without a specific degree of medical assistance, they should not. But this is ridiculous. I cannot hold that God is telling this couple to not reproduce or, given the accidental nature of the pregnancies, to not have sex. After all, isn't the murder of an unborn human being an extreme way to make a point?

    Not to mention I've seen this process occur in another couple of my acquaintance once. Despite their best efforts, though, this is what we think is the third or fourth time E and T have gone through this--only two pregnancies have ever been confirmed, and T reports that this happened once before she made E's acquaintance. When it happened seven years ago, another friend of mine, S, reported that she miscarried in my bathroom while I was asleep ... I took her down to the doctor, where it was confirmed that she was in a pretty bad state because of this miscarriage, and she soon after terminated her relationship with that boyfriend.

    But come on ... this is ridiculous. It looks to me like God, who blesses conception, does so for the purpose of exploiting this "human life" in a mortal example. By the anti-choice religionists' explanation of it,then, I have to ask why God is diminishing the value of human life through this manner of exploitation?

    One to think on.

    thanx,
    Tiassa

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  3. Xev Registered Senior Member

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    I'm confused.....you are saying that God would be an abortionist by causing miscarrage?

    Would not, by that logic, God be a murderer for causing cancer? I'm not sure if the dilemna works.....

    Oh, and for the record, not all of those who oppose providing abortion (*shrugs* TWOPA, everything else is biased towards one side or another) believe that life begins at conception.

    P.S: Goat-skin condoms? Such things exist?

    *Wonders what part of the goat they are made out of, but decides that she does not want to know*
     
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  5. TruthSeeker Fancy Virtual Reality Monkey Valued Senior Member

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    ???

    God told us to reproduce ourselves...

    And He told us: Don't kill each other.
    If you abort, you are killing a baby!!

    So then...
    How can the church agree with abortion??

    Love,
    Nelson
     
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  7. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    Dunno, Nelson

    Dunno ... maybe because God does?

    thanx,
    Tiassa

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  8. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    Xev
    I know, I know. But yes, they do. I'll skip further comment and leave you with this Google link.
    Yes. But I do think it's different.

    I look at it this way:

    • E and T have sex.
    • For whatever reasons beyond their contraceptive efforts, sperm reaches the egg.
    • Conception occurs. God blesses life.
    • Miscarriage occurs. God terminates blessed life.

    When we get down to the practical considerations of the abortion debate, in order to protect the "innocent lives" of the "unborn humans", we should avoid conceiving them at all. In the long run, what this will involve, in order to prevent this very thing from happening, is a Sexual Sanctity License. You and your potential partner, upon realizing that you are sexually attracted to each other, would have to get a blood test to ensure that any unintended conception would have a fighting chance. In the case of E and T, it's a mere matter of blood chemistry. If T wants to take a chance on conception, she can get a shot from her doctor every time she chooses to conceive. (Yes, Dr Jones? My boyfriend and I wanted to have sex tonight. Can I get that shot now?) That is, T has her doctor's guarantee, insofar as anything can be guaranteed, that any conception by E will result in a miscarriage at best.

    Now, why is this? I can't figure out why God would bless a life with conception knowing full well that He will destroy that life shortly enough. There are any number of practical omens such an event could be taken to represent, but it does, in fact, seem extreme to endow life and commit murder just to make a point that someone is sleeping with the wrong person. If people aren't meant to reproduce, why does God endow a life and then commit murder to make His point?

    Can you imagine that? Being arrested and jailed for the murder of an "unborn human" because you had sex? I mean, your irresponsible sexual actions--sleeping with someone of the wrong Rh factor--led directly to the conception and death of this "unborn human". Your actions led to the death of an unborn human, and therefore .... (fill in the rest of the anti-choice argument).
    Indeed. That's why I'm examining this religionist-centered point.

    The lord giveth and the lord taketh away. In this case, life is worth nothing more than a philosophical point. And that's what I find odd, watching this microdrama play out in my corner of the Universe.

    thanx,
    Tiassa

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  9. TruthSeeker Fancy Virtual Reality Monkey Valued Senior Member

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    tiassa,

    God would never accept such thing.
    You are killing someone... a baby!
    This issue is pretty easy... you are killing... is this ethical? No. Closed issue... :bugeye:

    Love,
    Nelson
     
  10. Xev Registered Senior Member

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    Nelson:

    Kindly explain how a fetus is a baby, at what point during gestation a fetus stops being a lump of cells and starts being a baby, and show the evidence that supports your position.

    Tiassa:

    I understand your point now. But I don't expect it to be answered. I mean, thier God already has this wierd obsession with what they do in bed with who....

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  11. TruthSeeker Fancy Virtual Reality Monkey Valued Senior Member

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    Xev,

    Since fecundation, a new life is born.

    Love,
    Nelson
     
  12. Xev Registered Senior Member

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    My 400th post - just for you

    Mmmkay. On what do you base that claim?

    I myself cannot be sure which side I agree with. I think both have valid points.
     
  13. TruthSeeker Fancy Virtual Reality Monkey Valued Senior Member

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    Xev,

    Well... since the two cells become one... a new life is supposed to be created, isn't it? Or the science still don't know it??

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    Love,
    Nelson
     
  14. Xev Registered Senior Member

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    Nelson:

    Good question.
    Not really. There is no single, precise definition of life. The one that works best is to say that a living thing

    A: Keeps itself from 'falling apart' due to entropy
    B: Reproduces.

    See the thread, umm, 'Stars are alive' for more. Basically, we can't yet define life.
     
  15. TruthSeeker Fancy Virtual Reality Monkey Valued Senior Member

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    Really...

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    Ummmm......

    ............

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    Love,
    Nelson
     
  16. Xev Registered Senior Member

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  17. Adam §Þ@ç€ MØnk€¥ Registered Senior Member

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    My biology textbooks give a rather firm definition of life. But according to my brother it doesn't take into account certain things. Maybe Paulsammuel could explain.
     
  18. TruthSeeker Fancy Virtual Reality Monkey Valued Senior Member

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    Better start a new thread on that...

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    Love,
    Nelson
     
  19. TruthSeeker Fancy Virtual Reality Monkey Valued Senior Member

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  20. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    Nelson? What are you talking about?

    What are you talking about, Truthseeker?

    thanx,
    Tiassa

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  21. TruthSeeker Fancy Virtual Reality Monkey Valued Senior Member

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    tiassa,

    I'm saying that as babies are human beings and the abortion kills the babies, then when someone aborts, a human being is being killed. Is this ethical? I suppose not...

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    Love,
    Nelson
     
  22. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    Okay ....

    There is nothing about this approach that I am unfamiliar with.

    However, what is at issue is that the human body, by design, allows conception of a pregnancy that does not, without artificial intervention, carry to term. That is, God blesses (as accords a particular religionist viewpoint which led me to post this topic) a conception of life that, by nature of design, cannot be.

    This creates a curious couple of notions:

    • God is the master abortionist (given, as nothing happens without God's will), but this time in a particularly direct manner. That is, God blesses a life with the intent that it should die in zygote or fetal stage. That is, the pregnancy cannot carry to term. Rh factor mismatch causes the mother's body to reject the developing organism as an infection.

    • Does nature, then, need a little help? This is the curious thing. As a believer in evolution, to me it seems there must necessarily be a reason why this occurs. I'll have to read a good deal more about it before I even have a clue what that reason is or could possibly have been. Then again, perhaps evolution doesn't come into it. No matter how you put it, God or Nature, I always say It isn't extraneous.

    • What casts it in the religious/political light is that I have long been familiar with the Christian (anti-abortion) argument that God blesses life at conception. (As Xev points out, not all anti-abortion hold Christian justifications for their beliefs.) In that sense, one is left to wonder why. Not in the sense of why did God take the baby in that car crash ... that is its own debate that I have no general issue with. But in the sense of why bless a life that is, by nature, not going to make it?

    Is one, then, killing a baby by not artificially intervening--that is, helping nature in its apparently imperfect design? :bugeye:

    thanx,
    Tiassa

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  23. blonde_cupid Registered Senior Member

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    Adam,

    ***My biology textbooks give a rather firm definition of life.***

    Yeah. Ironically, this is one arena where mainstream science and mainstream religion agree but where human philosophy wins at the expense of the human life. Go figure.
     

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