Do you have a non-xtian spouse?

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by G0D, Apr 1, 2002.

  1. Xev Registered Senior Member

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    Q: Maybe it's like Shroedinger's cat?

    Light:
    Yeah, it is all over the NT. John 15:6 Matthew 7:13-14, 24:50-51, 25:30, 25:41, 25:46. Mark 16:16

    Probably more. I don't feel like searching.

    On topic, I knew a guy who asked his girlfriend (he was a somthing or other, she was a Christian) if she would kill him if God asked her to. She said she would.

    Bye-bye to that one.

    Bizzare form of pillow talk, if you ask me. But interesting.
     
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  3. G0D G0D - Gee Zero Dee Registered Senior Member

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    From your reply, b-c, it seems that you and Truthseeker have some beliefs in common. You define hell as "abscence of god", and I suppose, heaven to you would be "loving relationship with god." If heaven and hell are both on earth - Are you saying that there is no afterlife?

    However, you also say -
    From these, I'd say that you do believe in some form of afterlife, perhaps not the form suggested by xtianity, but you have some sort of personal idea of what it should be like.

    My questions -

    So, perhaps, you believe that your spouse falls into one of the loopholes you mention, and will be with you in the afterlife. Is that the case?

    You have a conception of what the afterlife should be like. This conception is different from what the bible says. Who is right? Bible or you? {thnx LB and Xev for bible refs}

    How are you convinced that your version of the afterlife is the real thing? Is the bible wrong?

    What if the bible is right, and you are wrong? Do you spend eternity separated from your spouse?
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2002
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  5. blonde_cupid Registered Senior Member

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    GODx,

    ***You define hell as "abscence of god", and I suppose, heaven to you would be "loving relationship with god." If heaven and hell are both on earth - Are you saying that there is no afterlife?***

    It is more of a continuum.

    ***However, you also say -

    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Originally posted by blonde_cupid
    I think someone who has a loving relationship with God* in the here and now will continue to be with God* in the future. ... Anyway, I believe that those of us who are well aware of God* and who deny God* in this life will probably not be with God* in the future. ... Then there are those of us who, for whatever reason, do not come to consciously know God* in this life but who are with God* in righteousness in this life regardless and who will come to know and love God* at the second coming. Some of them will be last to know and the first to be with God* in the future.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    From these, I'd say that you do believe in some form of afterlife, perhaps not the form suggested by xtianity, but you have some sort of personal idea of what it should be like.***

    It is the form suggested by Jesus Christ.

    ***My questions -

    So, perhaps, you believe that your spouse falls into one of the loopholes you mention, and will be with you in the afterlife. Is that the case?

    You have a conception of what the afterlife should be like. This conception is different from what the bible says. Who is right? Bible or you? {thnx LB and Xev for bible refs}

    How are you convinced that your version of the afterlife is the real thing? Is the bible wrong?

    What if the bible is right, and you are wrong? Do you spend eternity separated from your spouse?***

    Your questions are appreciated and I would be more than happy to answer them except for the fact that I reject your premise. An issue of yours has come up which I'd like a little more insight into before we go further.

    Since you thank LB and Xev for the Bible references, I must ask... How did you come to form the opinion that my conception of afterlife is different from what Jesus Christ taught?

    Also... Based on the teachings of Jesus Christ, what is your understanding of the following issue which LB brought up?

    ***...if you are not saved through Jesus then you will not be with God. You can only get to the father thru the son?***
     
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  7. blonde_cupid Registered Senior Member

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    Xev,

    LIGHTBEING asked:

    ***quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    doesn't the Bible mention if you are not saved through Jesus then you will not be with God. You can only get to the father thru the son? Isn't this the Book you follow?
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------***

    And you answered:

    ***Yeah, it is all over the NT. John 15:6 Matthew 7:13-14, 24:50-51, 25:30, 25:41, 25:46. Mark 16:16***

    Were the mention of these passages meant to answer LB's questions in the affirmative? If so... then how?
     
  8. LIGHTBEING Registered Senior Member

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    639
    I think a better quote to focus for this arguement should be this:

    John 3:16
    For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

    it goes on to say

    17 For God sent the Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him. 18 He who believes in him is not condemned; he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

    b-c,

    I don't know how you mean when you say you don't take these quotes literally. Only because this is the most literal and one of the most important quotes behind Christianity. I thought that all Christians took these types of quotes literally. Your religious leaders teach to develope a personal relation with Jesus, literally. And they use this passage to do so.

    So please explain how you perceive these types of passages?
     
  9. G0D G0D - Gee Zero Dee Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    150
    Thnx LB for the NT.

    b-c has said that this is in accordance with her beliefs.

    When she says "the teachings of JC", one presumes she means stuff from the NT ... unless she has sources of JC's teachings of which we are not currently aware.

    ++++

    b-c,
    Certianly.

    But I have little knowledge of the "teachings of JC", and the post which you asked me to elaborate on, was made by LB, who seems to be more knowledgable than me.

    Can you expand on your post and tell me with which premise you have the problem?

    ---

    What is the form of afterlife as "suggested by Jesus Christ".
    Is it in full accordance with yours?
     
  10. Cupric What's a wookie? Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    112
    Yes, to both. Spouse and both parents are non-Xtian (now).

    Mom labels herself as a "Catholic/Buddhist/Pagan". Dad and hubby both would probably label themselves as "non-religious, spiritual" if asked.

    For the most part. The only family I seem to have trouble with, religious-wise, is a couple uncles on Dad's side that are pretty heavy fundamentalist. One is Southern Baptist, the other is a Jehovah's Witness. Their respective wives and children also follow thier faiths, but are less fundamentalist about it, and I can therefore get along with them better. When religion isn't the topic, however, we all get along surprisingly well for such a large and diverse family. Immediate family and I all get along great, I see my parents and sibling and nephew on a weekly basis.

    Of course, since I'm not Xtian myself, that sorta ruins the question - no concerns about hellfire in this household!
     
  11. Xev Registered Senior Member

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    Funny how they interpret the creation accounts literally but the really important stuff like salvation - well, that can be metaphorical or figurative.

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    Blonde: They elaborate on the concept of salvation....firstoff that one can only reach God through Christ, secondly that there is a strict duality between Christ and hell.

    It is pleasent, I am sure, for many Christians to suppose that thier religion allows great non-Christians (Gandhi, Einstein, Paine, Lincoln, Socrates, etc) to be rewarded in a life to come. However, this is contradicted by the Bible.

    There are no loopholes. Hence the argument that a non-believing spouse will be with a believing spouse fails, as a believer is saved and a non-believer is damned.

    Mark 16:16 is quite clear on this point.

     
  12. blonde_cupid Registered Senior Member

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    427
    LIGHTBEING,

    ***I don't know how you mean when you say you don't take these quotes literally. Only because this is the most literal and one of the most important quotes behind Christianity. I thought that all Christians took these types of quotes literally. Your religious leaders teach to develope a personal relation with Jesus, literally. And they use this passage to do so.***

    My religious teacher is Jesus Christ who, when asked directly about what must be done to gain eternal life, responded directly "If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments." (See Matthew 19:16-17)

    ***Originally posted by LIGHTBEING
    John 3:16
    For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

    it goes on to say

    17 For God sent the Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him. 18 He who believes in him is not condemned; he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.***

    More importantly, it goes on to say:

    19 And this is the verdict, that the light came into the world, but people preferred darkness to light, because their works were evil. 20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come toward the light, so that his works might not be exposed. 21 But whoever lives the truth comes to the light, so that his works may be clearly seen as done in God.

    It is true that, ultimately, we will all come face-to-face with Jesus Christ and must be judged by him according to our deeds before entering into eternal life (thereby entering through him). However, someone who believes in God* and follows the teachings of Jesus Christ without consciously attributing the path that they have chosen to Jesus Christ will come to understand the source of the truth when they come face-to-face with Jesus Christ. There are many who believe in God* and live in the light that Jesus Christ cast into the world even though they might not consciously be aware of the source of that light. They, too, are being saved through Jesus Christ.

    Xev,

    ***Mark 16:16 is quite clear on this point.

    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------***

    And what does "believeth" mean to you?
     
  13. Xev Registered Senior Member

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    'Believeth' would be 'to believe'. I'm sorry, but your explanation contradicts Scripture.

    However, since Scripture contradicts Scripture, it is not really a big deal.
     
  14. blonde_cupid Registered Senior Member

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    427
    GODx,

    ***But I have little knowledge of the "teachings of JC", and the post which you asked me to elaborate on, was made by LB, who seems to be more knowledgable than me.

    Can you expand on your post and tell me with which premise you have the problem?***

    Sure. Your premise that my beliefs are contradictory to what Jesus Christ taught as is recorded in the Bible. But now that you tell me that you have little knowledge of the teachings of Jesus Christ, I ask you...

    On what did you base such a premise?
     
  15. blonde_cupid Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    427
    Xev,

    ***'Believeth' would be 'to believe'.***

    Believe what?

    ***I'm sorry, but your explanation contradicts Scripture.***

    How so?
     
  16. LIGHTBEING Registered Senior Member

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    639
    b-c,

    I know what you are saying and it could be a strong theory. But Christianity does not support this. It almost seems that you are stretching the meaning of these passages for your benefit and your liking. It clearly states in the Bible that if you do not acknowlegde Jesus Christ as your personal Saviour, then you will not be saved.

    There is no last minute decision, there is no changing your mind on Judgement Day. If that is the case I guess we are all going to Heaven.

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    And how exactly is your husband indirectly following the teaching of Jesus?

    Better yet, How exactly do you know that you are learning the teaching of Jesus?
     
  17. blonde_cupid Registered Senior Member

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    427
    Xev,

    In the words of Jesus Christ:

    "Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes in the one who sent me has eternal life and will not come to condemnation, but has passed from death to life."

    John 5:24

    Does that help clear up what is meant by "believe"?
     
  18. G0D G0D - Gee Zero Dee Registered Senior Member

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    150
    Thank you for your reply, b-c.

    From a cusory glance at the posted NTs, it seems that your's is the only one which is directly attributed to JC himself. So, in that sense, there is no contradiction in your belief.

    You believe in the above line, because it is a saying of JC. You do not believe as strongly in John 316, etc, because they are not the sayings of JC. And, as you say, JC is your teacher.

    When JC sez "keep the commandments", is that a reference to the 10 coms of Moses?

    And is "enter into life" an euphemism for "enter into heaven"?

    I also echo LB's queries - How do you presume your spouse indirectly follows JC? and How do you suppose that you are correctly interpreting JC?

    For instance, is KalvinB correctly interpreting JC? or tony1?
    Is LB indirectly following JC? Is Xev? Am I?

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    ====

    xev, lb, etc.

    b-c seems to be asking us to restrict ourselves to sayings which is directly attributed to JC. The rest of the KJV seems to hold little attraction for her. Excepting the 10 commandments, maybe.
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2002
  19. Xev Registered Senior Member

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    God:
    *Groans*

    Fine! But Jesus himself dosen't like the people who don't believe in him (unbelievers, Blonde). You want the reference or can we take that for granted?
     
  20. G0D G0D - Gee Zero Dee Registered Senior Member

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    Xev,

    JC is against more than just the unbelievers. I think somewhere he voiced the opinion that one should abandon one's family and friends in favour of the almighty.

    the almighty lord, not the almighty $

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    ====

    b-c,

    According to you, one's lifestyle, manner, goodwill, etc is waht determines if one is "living in accordance with the teachings of JC".

    That is, if your spouse lives in accordance to the teachings of JC, he "will be with God*".

    If the dalai lama lives in accordance with the teachings of JC, he gets the ticket as well.

    So, belief in JC is not strictly necessary, but the determining factor is "living in accordance with the teachings of JC*".

    In other words, are you saying that acts determine salvation and not faith?

    That would mean that you believe as catholics do.

    And according to tony1, our supreme xtian, catholics are not xtians.

    Are you a christian, b-c?
     
  21. Xev Registered Senior Member

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    10,943
    God:

    Yep. Luke 12:51-53 and Luke 14:26

    Luke 14:26
    Of course, it could be argued that this applies only to the Apostles....

    Now, as far as works vs. faith goes, Scripture contradicts itself here. Blonde could argue that salvation is through faith AND works, but I am not sure if she can argue that it is through works alone.

    P.S: Hey, wadda you mean you are Great Cthulhu?

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  22. G0D G0D - Gee Zero Dee Registered Senior Member

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    How about "great gatsby"?

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    However she proceeds, we are waiting ....

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  23. G0D G0D - Gee Zero Dee Registered Senior Member

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    It seems that no reply is forthcoming from b-c.

    Perhaps she realised that she was facing eternal separation from her spouse .... and decided to devote all her time and energy towards "saving" him...

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