Adam Matter of timing, circumstance, and sympathy. In other words, right place, right time, As theologies went, its vagaries sufficed. thanx, Tiassa Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Oh ... Adam As to why not Christianity? I've been a Christian. I'll die before I accept that way of life again. --Tiassa Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
I knew you were a bloody tree-hugger! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Didn't know you were a christian before. As you say, however, they come in many flavours. Two christians I know here are a couple of the freakiest people I've ever met. One actually thinks all homosexuals should be lined up and executed. It's very odd to me when people say they passed through a phase of atheism, or they experimented with it. Very odd. As Xev said, "We are born atheistic". Religions and such are learnt, not inborn. I was born and raised an atheist, and to me religion was never more than another subject to study, like maths or meteorology. Yet you describe passing through various phases/religions, and include in that atheism. It is just very odd to me.
Odd, indeed It is, indeed odd. Especially as I believe atheism to the natural state. Toward that, however, is the acquisition of superstitions, and not just those related to you by others--the bump in the night, the unknown things one fears until learning that there are worse things in the world than being eaten alive by the monsters under your bed. But in terms of an atheist phase, there is a certain self-awareness about it, the deliberate rejection of ideas taught as factual, of ideas taught not as ideas but as ironclad reality. Despite the First Amendment to the Constitution of the United States of America, it is worth noting that my being subject to Lutheran indoctrination was apparently some bizarre legalism surrounding my birth. Don't ask, I can't explain it. Well, I probably could but it doesn't make sense The end result being that atheism was a deviation from learned reality. Furthermore, I think that any fixed state as natural is contrary to human nature. That atheism came and went for me in that natural of a transition seems indicative of the transitory nature of perspective. I figure whatever works until it doesn't .... I can't quite explain what doesn't mesh about Buddhism for me, but taking the idea that life is suffering as a given for the worldview chills me just a little too much. As long as it's a result, I'm fine. But when it's the nature of things, that's it, I'm out. Someone hand me a can of gasoline .... Like I said, my Ivory Tower of Hope. But when this post-Wiccan, Universal-Spirt, Camusite phase ends, I'm almost certain Buddhism is the next logical step. But not until it occurs to me that it's a useful thing to do. Who knows? Maybe I'll find a new use for a godless Universe along the way and run with that. Right place, right time. thanx, Tiassa Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
I have also passed through my atheist stagePlease Register or Log in to view the hidden image!Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! stange reeally..... First I was pagan then I was forced-up christian then I was an atheist and now I'm a pagan again, not believing in gods (god)... No I'm not an atheist because I don't believe in gods because I feel tht there is smth spiritual behind us and everything (like force in star warsPlease Register or Log in to view the hidden image! ). [and no, tht force isn't christian god. hate christianity, it's the biggest hoax in 2002 years]
Adam, Now, I don't consider myself Wiccan, per se, but I am a Witch, and have spent time in an ecclectic Wiccan coven, so I have a pretty good interest in your bashing topic here. Based on the old ways, or an ancient religion...hmmm...well, I'll agree to the former but not really the latter. As to the former, yes, based on old ways. Folk tradition, passed down, partially lost, reconstructed, and revitalized. "Based on" - that's an important part of that assertion - not "identical to". As to a singular "ancient religion of Europe"...well, I'm no historian, but I do believe there were British and European "hedge witches", folk healers, and the like - *not* a religion, (and certainally not standardized) but wise folk practicing magic and herbalism for the good of their communities. This image is where I draw my own personal path from, and if it's a fiction, well, all I can say for myself is that the results are there regardless. Now you're talking about a specific breed of Wiccan commonly referred to as the "Fluffy White Bunny" Wiccan. Characterized by denial and a lack of historical information, and in general reviled by the "core" Wiccan and Pagan community. (Simply put, they give the more serious practitioners a bad name as being idiots.) BUT - I do have to say, if these Old Ways are "non-existant" as you say, how can they be filled with "big nasty bloody sacrifices"? I say these old ways do exist (or rather, did), and yes, there were big nasty bloody sacrifices. But those ways are the old ways and, just like civilization itself, Wicca has grown up beyond it's bloody roots. (Technically, it was created after those roots were long dead, but you know what I mean, I think) Well, yeah, there are crackpots in every branch of humanity...and unfortunately the crackpots are usually the loudest ones at the party. I don't know many druids I'd take seriously either, but I do know one that I have nothing but respect for. If anybody is interested, I can ask if he'll come visit us here. I believe he is no longer officially associated with his order, but I think he still practices the beliefs on his own, and if nothing else, he's certainally a very knowledgable fellow. There are also plenty of folks who are completely legit that might give you a similar claim - those are the ones sick and tired of putting their efforts into explanations that will be ignored. A function of exhuastion. Demonstrate you are actually going to learn and be a dedicated student, and many will open up. In my experience, anyway. Hmm...for myself, I'd modify it to say "Based" on "some of" the Celtic beliefs, traditions, etc. And not all Wiccans (and possibly even fewer non-Wiccan Witches) use a Celtic pantheon, many use Greek, Roman, etc. Gods and Goddesses, symbols, etc. And then, of course, there are those (like myself) that don't really use any single pantheon or culture as a base, but instead pull images and ideas from whatever mythology or culture seems most appropriate for the purpose. No, you're basing that on the ROOT of the word "pagan". From Dictionary.com: So...based on the MODERN, CURRENT definition of pagan, you, as an atheist, are also pagan!! Congratulations, welcome to the club, membership dues are due at the beginning of the month. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Yes, isn't it? Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! You're oversimplifying. People aren't attracted to Wicca "simply because they like nature" - that is only one of the many reasons different individuals decide to become a Wiccan. And some of us like nature to the point of worshipping it and *still* aren't Wiccan. It's a very personal, spiritual decision. Why bring religion into it? Well, simply put, because some people are more spiritual and/or religious than others. I suppose this is as good a place as any to point out that you've taken a very thin slice of only the most visible Wiccans out there. The visible Wiccans are likely to be young, new to their faith, and therefore relatively undereducated compared to their quieter, calmer peers. Wiccans and Witches also have a lot of prejudice to contend with, so is it surprising that many of them focus so heavily on the pretty, rainbowy parts of their faith? Tell me I'm evil, I'll explain how much I love to pet my kitty-cat, I'm not going to explain that yeah, sometimes I do hex (curse), because somehow people don't understand that you must harm in order to heal. (Ever try to cure a flu without harming the virus?) Instead they sieze on the bits they want to hear and go nuts. AND...there are lots of Wiccans, Witches and Pagans out there that would pound you on the head for even calling it a religion in the first place!! To many, no dogma = not a religion. Call it a "system of beliefs", maybe, or a "path to the mysteries". Gee Adam, I'm sure they thank you for thinking of them. :bugeye: Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Cupric Brilliantly answered on all counts, thanks very much. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! You're right, the crackpots are the most vocal, due to emotional impetus. It would not surprise me if those I have encountered are of the "fluffy white bunny" variety. However, I would point out, as I recently did in another thread, I do often use original or long-standing meanings of words over current mutilations. Pagan comes from the Latin pagus, meaning "the countryside", areas away from the cities in the Roman Empire. Those who lived in the pagus were paganus. In the fourth century the Senate declared christianity the state religion, and outlawed all pagan religions, or those still practiced/believed in the pagus. Tacitus and several others of the time refer to such sacrifices among the many different groups, not as a common element of any one group. Also, there are blood stains and chopping marks and such on stone alters left in many parts of Europe. The idea of a single religion, that's the non-existant bit. But you have covered it all very nicely, thanks again.
I asked ... and boy, did I recieve .... Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Thnx for the extensive reply, iMu. You seem to have lead a very eventful life, despite the Luths and the catholic schooling. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! The choice of W as a function of personal evolution is very understandable. And I think we can safely assume that yes, humankind has not discovered everything - and not even discovered all the possible ways of discovering new things. The remark about buddhism=suffering seems somewhat unjustified and a premature conclusion. If I were asked, I'd probably say B is about enlightenment/satori. But that is all off on different topic. So, at the cost of oversimplification, can one say that the basis of your belief in a realm of the spirit is a series of unexplained phenomena that you (and others) witnessed? And no, I do not attribute any of that to weed or even hash. Despite having smoked prodigious amounts, I've only had auditory hallucinations, never visual. Though it does lead to very realistic seeming (and scary) dreams ... Never come across hash oil ... perhaps higher concentrations of THC (and absorption via skin) lead to visions of flying, but without having tried it, I cannot say. One thing tho, you do have a very colourful imagination, as your posts repeatedly show. Perhaps it was a combination of imagination + setting ("haunted" areas) + expectation that leads to the visions cited? I'm generally skeptical of "supernatural" phenomena, having never experienced any myself. I one saw a street performer in NYC "materialise" a penny inside a beer bottle (whose mouth was too small to fit the penny anyway), and I still don't know how he did it. But nothing else that could classify as "magic(k?)" or supernatural. One of the links was a surprising co-incidence tho. The one about "angels" and the Kabalah. A friend is embarking on 6 months of complete isolation in order to contact an "angel". And the attempt is beginning within 36 hours from now. I expressed my full support ... and my complete skepticism. Also I agreed to make an occasional supply of fresh clothing (white kurtas, knee length robes.) Do you have a take on contacting angels? Or do you only converse with satyrs and faeries? Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Hmmm. You find that odd? And yet say nothing of the reported supernatural experiences? Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Okay, switch it for "Neo-Pagan" then. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! But just because you adhere to the old definition doesn't mean those that use the modern version are wrong. Isaac Bonewits has an article talking about just this - the definition of Paganism. Might interest you: http://www.neopagan.net/PaganDefs.html If you go back to his table of contents, he has a lot of info about druids too. I haven't read up on them, so I can't vouch for them, but they're bound to be at least interesting. *shrugs* I'd read them, but I don't have the time right now, and won't for some time. (Remodeling the house - ugh)
Geez, so I'll call myself a heathen, big dealPlease Register or Log in to view the hidden image! But what I really wanted to say is tht what really matters is the meaning the particular word has now. Yes it was what you said 1600 years ago, but now's a different time, era. And old things have new meanings. You'll have to addopt. Cheers!
I know this will seem silly, but I don't find anything odd about the supernatural. I know there is more unexplained than explained, so far at least. I've seen some weird stuff myself. I have no problem with weird things. But yes, referring to atheism as a phase does seem odd to me, considering religion is learnt and we are all born atheists. It's almost like saying "I tried being human once, but that was just a phase". Avatar. Yeah, people tell me that all the time. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Various points ... Dear G0D ..., Quite simply, regardless of where it leads, I consider the notion that life is suffering observational but I am not ready to place it near the center of a religious approach. Not until I better understand the rest of the fourfold path and its implications among people can I possibly put it toward any effective use. And in my primary Buddhist contact, the adoption of the faith has resulted in a world-fleeing period, in which it's unclear exactly how he works toward the reduction of suffering. To be perfectly honest, if it really does come down to drawing pretty mandalas and thinking good thoughts about my neighbors, I hardly need a formalized religious system to prescribe such action. Pretty much. That and an unhealthy association to iambic pentameter. Exactly. 99.999% of all witchcraft-related flights are, indeed, related to the effects of whatever flying ointment one chooses to use. I generally don't go to the bother of slaking hash and clove with oil and simmering it for a given period. Psilocybin is a much easier though less-stable way to achieve the effect. I'd guess the remaining witch-flights can probably be attributed to exploding cauldrons :bugeye: ... and, of course, major airline use is not included in the witchcraft-related flights, despite the fact that I prefer the reliability of United coach class over a broomstick were I to, say, fly to a conference in the Carolinas. Like I said, half (at least) of the weird things I saw can be directly accounted for by natural--though speculative--factors. Imagination and setting, for instance. But I've seen a condemned house undo atheism before. Like one night in the alleged presence of the Devil. Okay ... yes, we were being stalked by something, but even though the wolves don't often hunt in tightly-distributed packs so close to civilization, I'm quite sure that the three or four independent entities were, most likely, canine and entirely mundane. They may be wolves but wolves are still dogs. There was a also a difference in the way fear came in relation to knowledge. The nature of that sudden anxiety changed according to a simple precept: does the subject know where s/he is and what is associated with the place? The atheist--he went out with us thinking we were taking him someplace to drink and be young with pretty girls. As a friend and I were parking our car, his went speeding by in the opposite direction. We later found him and his passenger having coffee at a nearby restaurant. Place scared the hell out the both of them, and they were two of the four who had never been there before. It's one of my favorite stories. In the end, our atheist pal spent about a month revising his worldview. Strangely, unresolved natural phenomena fell outside the scope of his accepted range of possibility. While I've never been one who sees the necessity of excluding natural phenomena from the atheist paradigm--as I said, proof of ghosts would equal merely proof of the existence of an event which we call a ghost--the degree of mystery he undertook somehow defied his atheist boundaries, and called for a revised paradigm. Didn't have much practical effect, didn't change him outwardly. Well, there were some differences. He no longer dropped his voice like a Jewish mother speaking of cancer in a Neil Simon play every time he referred to the mysterious ... it was an interesting period to witness. By and large subject mentality played the most significant factor in those occasions, but sometimes you feel it before you see it, like someone watching or pursuing you. Over the next years it might turn out that there is a peculiar electromagnetic balance at the site, or some such. But the sense of presence that defies explanation or expectation must necessarily have a cause. Internal or otherwise, there's still a handful that can't be written away as us scaring ourselves. The eyes in the belfry, for instance. Three people saw them, which tells me that something physical occurred in the space in that belfry. If only our fallen friend had seen them, then I would say 'dem blue eyes were symptomatic of assimilatng a heart attack. (We cannot guarantee that this event was the cardiac, but all signs point to "Yes".) Understanding that the notion of the angel stands, for me, as part of the Abramic tradition, I consider angels to be either pure pucky or else a specific range of interpretation of a given event. During the last "angel" rage, a woman who walks away from a hideous car accident credits it to the "angel" she saw. Okay, no concussions, no serious damage to induce hallucinations ... what, though, about the chemical state after being t-boned by a delivery vehicle and realizing that the volume of your body fills the only portion of the car which isn't utterly destroyed? Yet Crowley attributed Thelema to an "angel" named Aiwaz. I tend to think the use of the term angel here is in conformity with the systems he was pursuing. But in that sense, a seemingly external insertion of knowledge and will has many possible causes. Occam's Razor, at least, purports that the actual presence of an angelic entity is about the last thing one might find. Given the full liberty of pseudo-academic pomposity, I would go so far as to say that seeking angels or spirit-guides in any higher religion or magickal scheme is a question of faith. By my perspective, I equate it to all manner of solitary spiritual experience, the most basic of which can be described as a listening party, where a small troop of people retreat into isolation and spend a period simply not speaking, and listening to nature. Were it not for the cost, I would have taken the opportunity I found at random through an article in IONS magazine to spend two weeks in the isolation of the Moroccan desert. But at its foundation, such quests are meditative, and whatever form or function we staple onto that experience is a mere accretion. I find the higher-magickal ideas (e.g. "angel" as compared to "spirit") far too exacting to accurately describe the experience. Much like Christianity, then, the higher magickal systems often tell you what you expect to see in specific terms. Certes, a particular grimoire might tell me a few details about what to expect, but what purpose is there in relating to spirits under the specific presumption of human inferiority? (Why enslave oneself to tribute and begging? It's hardly a healthy result in the immediate.) To the other, in the broader sense, I should not necessarily criticize an angelic quest. Given the scope of possibility in the Universe, it's quite apparent that I could be entirely wrong. And that idea, wherever else it might exist, came to me through the witches' path. Satyrs, no ... faeries ... well, more often while socializing about town than when searching dancing rings and so forth, but what really gets to me are sprites. Little shadows of tangible irony flitting around whenever the natural order becomes too twisted by desire and ignorance to function according to expectation. They are, however, perfectly respectful when laying ladybird beetles to rest in the ground. But when your girlfriend is standing there shouting, "What are you doing?" while you burn incense and bury the carcass of the fallen ladybug and your best friend shows up and says, "What happened?" and she says, "He's burying a f--king ladybug," and your best friend says, "Oh, shite, let me get my gear," and runs back to the car for his magick box ... yeah, about that point the sprites lose it and you can hear them tittering in the trees like pure-tone windchimes. But it's nice to know that if I ever stop and talk to the trees, there's a fifty-fifty chance that someone or something is actually listening. Of course, more often than not, whoever's listening doesn't give a rat's behind except for your value in humor. So in that particular sense, the spirit realm isn't that different from the mundane world. It's all about the joy that hides beneath the mundane veneers of life, waiting for its chance to burst forth and spill across the land in merriment and rhythm. I mean, come on ... the day happiness bleeds into every dark corner of the human experience ... that'll be magic alright. Of course, in the modern day, there would be some threefold blowback. After all, when happiness infects everyone, we'll be taking away the sovereign right to be deliberately unhappy. And that's wrong, and so we'll apologize in advance. Oh, and one last note in general ... perhaps more important than the unexplained phenomena is the living result. Among the objectivism I found in my atheist phase I found a serious lack of living passion. The hollowness of the mundane experience, and the duplicity of the mundane conscience--well, what's important? What you have, what you call yourself, or how you feel? thanx, Tiassa Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Re: Various points ... Dear G0D ..., Now, "reality" is a term which I consider to be pretty subjective, so I'm inclined to leave it at that. But, for the sake of argument, should some solidly "sane" citizen ask - "but! .. but! that FLYING is all in your HEAD. It's all shrooms and dope! Your feet never left the ground!". What do you suppose a wiccan would reply to an assertation like that? That reflects a major problem with reports of supernatural phenomena. The most common reaction seems to be fleeing in the opposite direction. Suppose one decided to hang around? And went foward to investigate. Perhaps one would have found perfectly mundane explanations for the event. Perhaps it was some kids with flourescent paint, who stepped out of the shadows right after their terrified victims fled ... ? Perhaps it was some exotic species of pet cat - some of them are really creepy looking ... Maybe discarded masks from halloween? a trick of the light and shadows, etc, etc. The more terrified the witnesses were, and the quicker they fled the scene, the more dubious the reported event - IMO. Another thing - I don't know if those prizes are still in effect - but are there not foundations/colleges/etc who are offering massive cash prizes for any proof of the supernatural? Cash is a pretty ok incentive, and yet there seems to be no takers ... perhaps it's because there is no such thing as the supernatural? I prefer the Himalayas. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! High places, hills, mountains, preferably (somewhat) populated. Neither did I criticize it, but I did mention that I, personally, would never undertake 6 months solitude, celibacy, silence and general lack of partying for a chance to have "visions" of halos and wings. Even worse, the entire period is going to be spent in an urban area! Had it been out in Ladakh, I'd have gladly spent the time. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! uh, you're not Neil Gaiman in real life, are you? What you feel, of course. But, OTOH, is this not a dig at atheism? Perhaps not unlike sayng "gee, doesn't abscence of god make you feel all empty inside?" Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Various points I think the response would depend on the Wiccan, but since that's a cheap answer, let's look for a better one. The first thing to ask is, Where have I flown tonight? The second thing to ask is, What, if anything, did I bring back? Not every place of necessity is reached by airlines or highways. I'm not going to fly to Chicago to catch the game; UAL or Trailways can deliver me there. But if I bring something back from where I've gone, and give it unto another, it's hardly all in my head, is it? To address the whole of the two paragraphs ... well, that's the thing about unexplained phenomena. If it was flourescent paint or kids in masks or something quite mundane, it would be easier to explain. Even the fifteen-foot damned-if-I-know-what-it-is has its particular giveaways as psychological processes. However, the two cats, both locked in the basement and both pestering us as we moved through various slapdash magicks to try to pull a spiraling situation under control .... This, more than the lights, more than anything, is the absolute damnedest thing I've ever seen. One cat seen in two rooms simultaneously while believed trapped in a third. We might note that the other cat, while locked in the same room as the first, apparently managed to get out and spend a good hour or so comforting our most-distressed associate while she sat inside a magick circle. Here's the f--ked part about that: during that whole period, neither of the two would-be magickers at hand (myself and my best friend) saw the cat sitting with her during that period. She was damn-near catatonic. Yet when describing her interactions with the cats, we both agreed that she had a pretty good handle on other parts of the chronology, so it's not like she missed the events of the evening. And yes, when things were finally under enough control to retrieve the cats from their prison, they were both waiting for us to let them out. Most of that night I'll hand to you on the basis of fear causing a number of misperceptions, but I'll stand firm on the cats; what those cats did ain't natural. Actually, there's a point: the supernatural is only supernatural until it is explained, at which point it becomes natural. Aw, won't you feel foolish if some of those things called "supernatural" turn out to be real events? That is, all of these events are real in the purely empirical; but can that reality be related? Take my above-mentioned What if of ghosts? Well, if I were to develop a device sensitive enough to track such an electromagnetic disturbance, and were I to discover something about the manner and capability of perceiving such a phenomenon, and furthermore was able to document a standard psychosomatic response to the aberrant perception ... well, it wouldn't be supernatural now, would it? Indeed. I'm actually thinking of looking for the next Morocco trip, it's been such a year so far. No, but it might be fun. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! It might, indeed, constitute a dig at atheism, but it is, in fact, an experiential reflection. And, as long as we're on that level, I'd say that any dig at atheism we could construct out of that would be a far sight better than others' attempts to separate people out of the human experience. Just as long as we're mentioning such aspects. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! thanx much, Tiassa Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Re: Various points True. From this, can we extrapolate that you consider concepts like astral projection within possibility? (Babelina made a very charming post somewhere about midnight astral meetings at the Eiffel Tower. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! ) If we could once again call upon our hypothetical "sane citizen", wouldn't he or she ask "What do you mean WHERE you flew. You were right here! And what did you bring back. Show me!" Can our good Wiccan relate events/anecdotes/etc that could stun our "sane" citizen? For instance, could the Wiccan come up with the exact date of birth of our sane citizen? Or fish out an item which was locked in a wallsafe in the citizen's library? Hmmmm. Perhaps 15 ft beings have something in common with satori - the more you desire to see/experience it, the further it goes beyod reach. But if that is not the case, then would you describe (or link to) any rituals/experiments that could possibly allow one to reproduce the experience? I'd love to give it a shot ... Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! PS: I dunno about Morocco. Isn't it awfully hot, dry and sandy in deserts? And wouldn't a lack of trees/forests mean that sprites/grimoires/satyrs/etc have no dwelling place?
Such as it is ... I have never astrally projected into the mundane world, and cannot comment definitively on such notions as the Eiffel Tower. It's problematic because at this point, the sane citizen is not prepared to see what is shown them. Rather than leave it at such a heavy-handed statement, it would be best to explain. I can hardly hand you a coin or a menu from a bistro in Rome, and most likely what you bring back gets put away in a pocket until you remember you have it. The good Wiccan is not looking to stun our sane citizen for credibility's sake, but rather looking to pass whatever gift along. I would daresay that our sane citizen might live another fifty years before realizing that s/he has already seen the evidence and its effect. Vague? Mystical? Well ... that's the way it's supposed to be. What you bring back to give, if anything at all, has no cash price. Prior comments of mine elsewhere pertaining to tarot readings contain the answer to the first question. As to wall-safes? That is best left to a different, more mundane and definable magic that I have never practiced. I would not recommend any such experience. Whether real or hallucinatory, it was largely negative. The cats, though ... the cats ... there are, I would imagine, any number of sites pertaining to the mystical issues surrounding the feline presence, but I have not come across much that I trust. And such is the nature of the oversimplification you mentioned a few posts ago. The danger of oversimplification is oversimplification. I might point someone toward Spiral Dance or the Naples Arrangement in Therion's Book of Thoth, but in the end, there is no grimoire to describe how I reached the place I have, and this is for the best because the philosophy relies on base imagery, transitional (active) definitions of things, and the pure bull-hunky assumption that life, indeed, has a purpose. Anybody can do the magic I do with relative ease, but they would have to live or die by those three factors (and a few other specifics) for quite a while. My own development has taken half my life, and is constantly threatened by mundane aggression. What is most interesting is that there does, in fact, exist a crisis 'twixt method and result that, if not resolved, could prove to be the utter undoing of everything I have built. Such erasure would be a heavy defeat, but at least I haven't jumped ship just because there's fire in the kitchen. And I will go down with this ship; I built it, I sailed it, I brought it to these perilous waters. A lack of sprites is, functionally, always a good thing. But also, that lack of accretions is exactly the point of going to the middle of a desert. In familiar surroundings, the vitality of the environment is its own magical force. To eliminate as many of those factors as possible, and to seek the underlying energy that is the living experience in all its purity ... sounds like a reasonable idea. And besides, with the months to come, a few weeks of dead silence in a desert might, in fact, do me some immediate and necessary good. thanx, Tiassa Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Re: Such as it is ... Aside from occasional magic with words Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!, what other magic do you do? For instance, could you not do a "reverse love potion" or some sort of "hex" on your present romantic partner? Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Don't get me wrong, it's quite amusing to read descriptions of your personal life. It's just a solution (oversimple, perhaps?) that comes to mind.... Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! I'd grant you the fact that our ideal Wiccan is not out to do stage magic, and has no interest in wowing our hypothetical sane citizen. Also, that any evidence our Wiccan provides our "sane citizen" is of no immediate value, but the full impact of the evidence may only show up a long time later. But then does this mean that our "sane citizen" will now have to walk away unconvinced? With absolutely no immediate evidence of our Wiccan's powers? Is there anything at all that our ideal Wiccan can do that our "sane citizen" would construe to be immediate proof of wiccan powers or as immediate proof of a spirit realm?
Progress? Perhaps ... We'll start at the end, since it saves time. No. And I've never claimed such. However, within my definition of what constitutes the spirit realm it definitely exists. What, for instance, is "love at first sight"? Certes, a few hormones, but what is that intellectual scramble of rationalization? And when it's a mutual moment ... that spark? (1) Exactly. Our sane citizen must remain unconvinced. (2) No immediate evidence whatsoever. (1) Usually, words are all that are necessary. Sometimes some soft humming, or even something so simple as a well-timed smile. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! (2) The Threefold Law, regardless of how one interprets magical principle, advises me against such a potion or hex. Now then, perhaps a few things that we really need to clear up. • I am not, technically, Wiccan. What I am doing in this topic is tantamount to a Unitarian Universalist explaining the Southern Baptist Convention. Perhaps a little less severe, but I'm hardly the best representative of Wicca. • Wicca is the last viable symbolism that (for me) functionally applied to the magic of the living experience. Being vague and basic, it did not encounter the difficulties that higher magicks and their more exacting symbolisms inspire. For the benefit of all, a couple of words about the magical (and magickal) in general, taken from Robert R McCammon (a fiction writer): and I should stop there before I get into the Bradbury. I could throw almost a whole library at you at that point. It is also worth noting that, except through the comparative, I have never known a "sane citizen". Everybody has a little bit of insanity in them, and there is no reason that insanity must work against them. In the end, it's all about people and how they feel. The greatest magic of my life is fleeting, but it was enough to keep the razor from cutting, and those people get to smile the next day and say yes, everything's alright. Do any of them even remember? Dunno. Does it even matter? As long as they can still smile, no, it doesn't. Do you have a favorite song? Is it also the best song you've ever heard? Favorite, best? What makes either what they are? thanx much, Tiassa Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! McCammon, Robert R. Boy's Life. New York: Pocket, 1991.
Re: Progress? Perhaps ... "Sane citizen" . That's why I referred to it as the hypothetical sane citizen. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! A careful choice of surroundings and friends has been useful in these ppl away from my vicinity. Also the threat of implied violence is good ... 3 fold principle etc. That's something to do with doing no harm, is it? Because if you do harm, you get it done back to ya X 3. Kinda renders witches quite impotent, wouldn't you say? I had only suggested doing metaphysical violence to your mate because of your frequent and amusing rants against her. One would think that an accomplished wiccan could do the needful and quietly convert inconvienient ppl into toads or something... Or failing that, do some sort of love potion that would create the necessary friction that leads into amicable separation .... Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! But since you seem to be ruling those options out, it does start to beg the question - What CAN a wiccan do with his/her knowledge of the esoteric/spirit world/etc? Examples of doings that affect the world and other ppl would be preferred over examples of events internal to one's mind ...
Pray for rain? I don't know .... Essentially. It goes both ways. It's a metaphor for how your attitude and behavior are reflected in the organic whole. The classic example is shoplifting, that the act of stealing has at least three practical negative effects. First, the thief acknowledges a lack of means or a lack of will to accomplish a legitimate goal. Secondly, stealing arouses suspicion among people, damaging the harmony of the community. Third, over the long run, the human endeavor plays by rules by which goods will cost more to recover the lost profits of stolen goods. At that point, the practical effects become abstract, so it's fair enough to say that should the thief ever straighten his/her path, those choices and actions will detract from the person's quality of life. Sure, that one's broad, but if you start looking at even the little lies of life that make life the soap opera it often is, so much of human strife becomes unnecessarily reflective of itself. Even a 1:1 ratio should suffice. Three is a convenient mystical number. It's one more than two. (Seriously, that's the only reason three is an important number.) Actually, it's time for me to stop using the word Wiccan entirely. I was wandering through some sites and I've found that on the one hand, I technically belong to the term agnostic (as per a definition I gave Adam in a different topic), and on the other hand, I have repeatedly said that I'm a poor representative for Wicca at this board and this recent foray onto the web reaffirms that fact. Witch, magicker, Artist ... there's a host of other terms I've been known to use. And I stand on the statement that it was the last religion I had before I gave up religion. But, that statement aside, your point is well-pointed. The potion for that necessary friction can be had, but it willfully involves another: e.g. the "vaginal potion" of another lover. But I'm not about to go diving 'twixt another's thighs just to make a point. I shouldn't be treating that other person that way. As to more direct magicks, I could always give her a potion that makes her sick and then hopefully she'll never talk to me again. Think of it this way: I don't expect the holy spirit to come down out of the clouds when someone prays. Nor do I expect magick to work in any specific way as the result of a spell, hex, or other such act of will. If I could pin down a mechanical effect in the Universe, sure. But until I do, not a chance. (And what, really, is the chance that I or anyone else will? In my lifetime, it's a maybe, but only that.) Sometimes the rhythmic and energetic changes are all that are needed to accomplish the goal, and this is something I've come to believe in, that all spells work toward creating not only a proper frame of mind to deal with the problem at hand, but also in aligning oneself so that the intangible factors of a person, the subtleties, and also mannerisms of a person all work harmoniously toward the goal consciously sought. thanx, Tiassa Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
