'Professional Skeptics Group Proves UFOs Real-UFO Evidence'
http://www.ufoevidence.org/documents/doc1396.htm
"The professional skeptics of te Meirs case have concocted all sorts of fanciful notions and theories as to how he hoaxed te evidence. But when challenged to prove their claims they repeatedly replied thqt it was not their job to attempt to duplicate evidence, although conducting temselves according to the scientific method would require it....It is now absolutely incumbant upon any and all of te skeptics who have offered money for proof of "paranormal" phenomenon, to offere it to Meier and his non-profit orgaization in Switzerland, FIGU.....Integrity demands that tey now live up to their word...."

ok skeptics.....lets all sit back and watch ya wiggle your way out of this mutha

Riiiiight, because one guy can't be arsed to fake some footage, Meiers claims become more valid? No, Meiers claims stand on his own evidence, and that 'evidence' is really flawed.

In various pieces of footage, his 'UFO's' are seen to swing like pendulums, and wobble, as if attached to string. In another, when Meier zooms, he somehow only zooms in on half of his 'UFO', leaving the area where the 'string' would be attached just out of sight. It's not like there was camera shake, or he had no time to frame his subject either, this was deliberate, as I guess he was worried the string would become visible at such high zoom!

How come Meier alone sees so many UFOs? Why don't his neighbours see them too? It's not as if Switzerland is so vast these things can go unnoticed!

Duendy, maybe if you'd actually seen some of Meiers crap, you wouldn't embarrass yourself like this.

IF it is all as simple as puppet strings and lampshades...how come they haven't been ble to replcate the same using the most cutting art technology?

You probably haven't seen any good alien movies.

'Professional Skeptics Group Proves UFOs Real-UFO Evidence'
http://www.ufoevidence.org/documents/doc1396.htm
"The professional skeptics of te Meirs case have concocted all sorts of fanciful notions and theories as to how he hoaxed te evidence. But when challenged to prove their claims they repeatedly replied thqt it was not their job to attempt to duplicate evidence, although conducting temselves according to the scientific method would require it....It is now absolutely incumbant upon any and all of te skeptics who have offered money for proof of "paranormal" phenomenon, to offere it to Meier and his non-profit orgaization in Switzerland, FIGU.....Integrity demands that tey now live up to their word...."

ok skeptics.....lets all sit back and watch ya wiggle your way out of this mutha

)))))))))))))))))))(((((((((((((((((((((

Yes, Unidentified Flying Objects exist. They are military aircraft, not aliens.

Yes, Unidentified Flying Objects exist. They are military aircraft, not aliens.
no mate...that was last week (slaps communist hamster's face with cold water making his cheeks go apple red)...we are on about the article i forewarded? about skeptics who simply cannot replicate Meier's supposed UF forgeries....EVEn with te latest state of the art technology

what do you think about it? should they give him the money..?????

no mate...that was last week (slaps communist hamster's face with cold water making his cheeks go apple red)...we are on about the article i forewarded? about skeptics who simply cannot replicate Meier's supposed UF forgeries....EVEn with te latest state of the art technology

what do you think about it? should they give him the money..?????

()}{()}{()}{()}{()}{

ok skeptics.....lets all sit back and watch ya wiggle your way out of this mutha

Mmmmm, Billy Meier. There's a tough nut to crack. Lets examine some of this of his otherwise "inexplicable" work shall we?

Image 1 - The Classic Pleadiean Beam Ship. (http://thebiggestsecretpict.online.fr/ufo/Meier_classic_beamship_zoom.jpg) One of a series of images taken over the course of many years, most certainly some of Meier's best works. Observe what appears to be a stubby antenna sticking out of the top of the ship?

Closer Analysis (http://thebiggestsecretpict.online.fr/ufo/Meier_UFO_exposed.jpg) - when viewed in negative with a sharp gain filter you clearly see the "antenna" is actually the thicker part of the fine thread holding the model up.

How about something more obvious? Always been one of my personal favourites - Billy Meier's Flying Wedding Cake (http://thebiggestsecretpict.online.fr/ufo/Wedding_Cake_infront_house_highrL.jpg) - now, even if one is blind enough to not instantly appreciate the inane crudity of the model involved in the picture and the set up of the shot itself, one can clearly see the strings holding it aloft.

Pop along to http://thebiggestsecretpict.online.fr/ufo_et.htm (http://thebiggestsecretpict.online.fr/ufo_et.htm), about half way down the page under the heading -


UFOs, fake.
For the following pictures it's most likely 100% certain they show FAKE UFOs.

This, remember, from a site actually run by dyed-in-the-wool UFO believers.

This claptrap you sited in opening -


But when challenged to prove their claims they repeatedly replied thqt it was not their job to attempt to duplicate evidence, although conducting temselves according to the scientific method would require it....

Actually, it's Sciences job to remain sceptical. When it comes to crude amateurs like Meier and his disciples out there, frankly, who can really blame people being sceptical? No ones ever had to concoct "all sorts of fanciful notions and theories as to how he hoaxed te evidence" when it comes to the subject of Billy Meier - y'just have to look at some of his photographs. Most don't even require image processing to see the weak arsed badness of them - not even by UFO Believers.

I just have to add my two cents on top of what hs already been said. it is impossible to perfectly copy anything, especially when there are so many ways it could have been done. if I took a video of my back yard, and it was dark, fuzzy, unstable, do you think you could copy my back yard?

The Billy Meier case is a good example of how desperately people want to believe. If you look at the photos with an open mind you will see that they are fakes. Some of them are just laughable, such as the flying wedding cake in previous post.

The grainy 8mm footage of saucer-like objects dangling on string is hardly impressive.

No "state of the art technology" is needed to recreate these photos.

http://www.iigwest.com/ufopix.html

my anonymous.....Ok, i loked at your small sample of Meier's photies.

ok. the one where you make a negative of it and claim there is an antenna coming from the centre?....is it a very fine whitish 'line' you are lookin at?.....well if you look closer you can also see these faint lines in other part of the negative, including over the trees to the right....and you aoso see one kind of to te slight left of 'your line' doing a 90degree angle to the left. in ote words you are lookin at the grain doo doo

same with that--i must say--rathe odd lookin 'vehicle' in Meier's back yard. you cliam you can see 'strings' holding it up?
well first, why the heck would one NEED strings to hold up a 'sculpture' --if that's what you are claiming?....as an artist i am familar with all different forms of scuplture from small to large, and have NEVER seen the need for strings to hold them up..............Also...if yo look closely at picture you again can ee that the'strings' are more so grain marks of te photograph. for example follw 'your idea' of a string coming from top of contraption and you'll see it FUSE with te roof pattern...ie., you are imagining it to be a strring rathr than that foor patter.....also check over te trees and you will also see errrr 'strins' over them. now...my anonymous. whatin mergotroyde is theeee strings doin over thereeeee??

couldn't open your last link for some unknown reason.

please you'll return to the article i forewarded and re-read. they aren't talkin about some 'picked' 'dodgy' photies yous lot have picked to quickly explain away. no. tat many tried wit all kinds of high grade techno to duplicate what he said he COULD duplicate......AND he got TWO arms too!!...so dont be goin all smug YET

d? The singular point is, these are photographs Billy Meier claims to be space vehicles of extraterrestrial origin - even a casual perusal of which clearly indicates they are no such thing.

Anyone can download a copy of the original Meier images from the site, a site remember run by believers in the subject of UFO's, and analyse the image composition oneself at ones own leisure with even very rudimentary, freeware image processing software.

Granted you, personally, with your non PC internet set up may not be able to accomplish that - the rest of us however can. Other people have done so, myself included and it's patently obvious Billy Meier's photographs are those of model "space vehicles" shot with various degree's of success Meier himself rarely delineates between. The good, the bad, the crashingly awful - all, to Billy Meier's perspective, represent images of ships produced by races Billy Meier himself perceives singularly, which in itself is activity hardly without precedent within the subject of UFO's.

Pop over to Google and run an impartial search for the following terms - Richard Shaver and The Shaver Mysteries.

What you will read about concerns a rather famous pre Flying Saucer phenomena that hit America from the late 30's through to the birth of the modern UFO phenomena as it started in 1947 wherein which the gentleman in question, one Richard Shaver, had his "experiences" of a subterranean species known only as The Deros published regularly in the popular fiction magazine Astounding Stories under the auspices of a chap by the name of Ray Palmer...

Ray Palmer is a name anyone familiar with the history of the UFO phenomena as it stands today will be already well acquainted with - back the days of Kenneth Arnold and the term Flying Saucer first being termed, Ray Palmer's is a name that crops right in the very thick of things and stayed that way right through the 40's and 50's.

Much of what is the subject of UFO's in the sort of terms people of your own sorts of interests take originates from the work of this one interesting little chap all by himself. A phenomenal character in every sense of the word, genuinely worth reading up on...

Anyway, The Shaver Mysteries.

Richard Shaver was a quiet, perfectly harmless chap. Formally a welder by trade until, after having been exposured to rays produced by welding equipment, suddenly finding himself acutely "sensitive" to certain truths regarding this world few of the rest of us would barely deem credible - mankind, from what Shavers insights provided him with, was actually the slave of a race of technologically superior beings calling themselves The Deros. Hideous, troglodyte creatures in aspect, they lived underground and via means of their incredible technology had the power to manipulate and control world events from the safety of their fantastical underground bases.

Shavers initial insights were first published in the Magazine Astounding Stories in the late 1930's - ostensibly as a work of "fiction", but published as such only under the strongest advisement that such a term had to be applied only because the truths being reviled were so profound and genuinely shocking, certain individuals identities had to changed in order to protect them from sure repreprisals...

Thus began The Shaver Mysteries.

The truth of the matter of course is far, far more prosaic. The material Shaver himself actually submitted for publication wasn't actually written as a work of fiction at all - it was sent as a letter to the editor of the publication in question. Ray Palmer himself actually re-wrote the original letter as the beginnings of one of the most successful publishing phenomenas of the day in the form it was originally printed in.

Richard Shaver himself was actually a paranoid schizophrenic - a perfectly harmless sort, but not actually terribly able to delineate between what was going on in real life and what was happening inside his own mind.

The point, and there is actually several, is that, even though as patently ludicrous as sack of monkey's, and published as pure fiction to boot, the original Shaver Mystery subsequent to original publication was to prompt an incredible degree of response from otherwise perfectly ordinary citizens the length and breadth of the American US all expressing not only relief but an excitement to wish to share their personal experiences and insights concerning this underground dwelling species The Deros.

And my, there were rather a lot of them.

As series go these contributions became incorporated within the body of the original and as a publishing phenomena, The Shaver Mysteries as they were to become known, ran for years.

People in this day and age often express incredulity at the very notion that its possible for so many, many people to simply make things up as they go along regarding what we these days call UFO's - however, as was perfectly clear from the onset of this pre-1947 phenomena, people actually did make the whole thing up as they went along, and revelled in the activity.

Moreover, and the reason this in itself remains germane, the sorts of experiences these perfectly ordinary, normal, everyday sorts of people were to relay regarding their own, personal experiences of these Deros chaps, reflect perfectly the exact same claims people today make about their own personal experiences with ET's - including, actually, the presence of ET's themselves.

All occurring in print pre-Kenneth Arnold, all a matter of historical record.

These people told their tales of how they were abducted by these creatures and experimented upon, of how instruments were placed within their bodies. They personally witnessed these creatures great technological advancements and reviled their insights into how these beings planned to take over the world and as those that would submit these "encounters" would have their tales published, others would speculate upon the implications of what their testimonies were implying and publish their own speculations into that as well.

There, back in the day before the term Flying Saucer had ever been coined, perfectly ordinary US citizens were relaying their stories of how this subterranean species and others from out of space were here amongst us on our world, controlling Governments, producing weapons of mass destruction and herding the rest of us like cattle - in terms neither different or in anyway less original than those still used today.

The Deros may be long gone and forgotten, but as cultural phenomena their legacy still remains very much in evidence to this very day.

The sorts of phenomena being "experienced", the speculations such revelations produced - all that is associated with the belief in Extraterrestrials first had its expression before anyone even knew what a Flying Saucer was supposed to be - yet even back then, people knew with absolute conviction and certainty, that the craft these Extraterrestrials in league with this species known only as The Deros were disc like and flew by means unfathomable by mankind.

History is just what it is d, what happened. Read up on it, enjoy it for what it actually is, and move on.

One way or the other, if the things you like to entertain the notion of are actually real, they're hardly likely to require string to hold them up with... ;)

as yo well know Jacques Valee also relates very ancient accounts of abductions and UFOs, also Dr Mack is a great source for various abduction reports

Both those experienced researchers DIFFER from yo and co, in that they dont JUMP to CONCLUSIONS....!

They are open to not dismissing post 1947 accountsbeCAUSE of past experience. I.e, arguing that because of past events that that = all the phenomena is false. that approach is just plain short sighted. ANDit completely dismisses, puts down and pathologizes people who actually SHARE such profound experiences!

ANDit completely dismisses, puts down and pathologizes people who actually SHARE such profound experiences!

d? The very point is that non of the events relayed throughout the course of The Shaver Mysteries ever happened at all - except that people claimed their experiences associated with the so called "events" of the saga to be profoundly true.

Each and everyone of these people, regular men and women no different from either you or I, all shared the same similar "experiences" as those portrayed throughout the subsequent UFO Phenomena to the present day. That process of commonality and shared experience is what made The Shaver Mysteries the compelling ongoing "mystery" it became.

Yes, the facts of the matter do rather dismiss, put down and pathologize the active protagonists of this pre-UFO publishing event - how else can one possibly view them? The events Richard Shaver relayed never actually happened and the "facts" concerning the mystery, where not supplied firsthand by the readers of the magazine itself, were all (everyone) written by hired writers, including the editor of the magazine itself Ray Palmer.

Not a single syllable of what these readers relayed regarding their own personal "experiences" over the course of many, many years ever actually happened, nor could they possibly have done so - there are no Deros, there never were, yet despite what one would assume to be sever impediments to the process the fact of the matter remained quite the contrary - the less actual evidence anyone could provide the more The Shaver Mysteries thrived and endured.

Moreover, the exact nature of the experiences these people both recognised as "fact" and shared in common with others mirrored exactly the course and events that over the decades since the onset of the UFO phenomena which would eclipse The Shaver Mysteries entirely follow the same path and ground - physical abduction, experimentation and violation, secret Government collaboration and consent, incredible technologies all "known" to be true because witness had said they had seen them - yet, other than the publication of the materials which made up The Shaver Mysteries themselves, not a single event relayed concerning the entire affair ever actually happened outside the imaginations of the people making it up as they went along.

So, what are you telling us here d? The Shaver Mysteries were published and continued to be so for years before the modern UFO Phenomena ever started - doubly so actually throughout the years subsequent. People now interested in Flying Saucers read within Shaver equally shared experience between their personal experience of extraterrestrials and those described concerning the Deros as being one and the same thing - the experiences shared and relayed are that similar how could they possibly be anything else but implicitly true?

The fact that these days, were you to raise the subject of Deros and be met with anything but polite puzzlement as to quite what the hell it was you were actually talking about remains symptomatic only of the times we live in - people however, rarely actually change.

Why should believers and those who have actually claim experience of extraterrestrials today be any less deluded than those who claimed exactly the same concerning an equally "alien" species, these Deros, that never actually existed at all? You can claim it impossible for so many people with shared common experiences to be delusional and capitalise your responces all you like d, The Shaver Mysteries demonstrate it not only possible but what actually happened.

what the ek are yus going on with with with your Shaver Mysteries??

yo are tryingto imply that te research of Vallee, Mack and others is totally false, and the people today who have experiences are lieing

you know...youuuuu skeptics are...what ya on??...or NOT on?

Ah... duendy, duendy, duendy... If all else fails, make like y'don't know what the other fellow's on about.

Timeless. One simply has to give props to The Classics... ;)

Of course you know why I'm bringing up the subject of The Shaver Mysteries, d. If the first full explanation of why I'm bringing up the subject of The Shaver Mysteries didn't adequately convey the answer, the second equally full explanation as to why I'm bringing up the subject of The Shaver Mysteries couldn't possibly have failed to have done the trick.

But, lets leave that aside for the moment and touch briefly instead on the subject of UFO research for a moment - Google Search Results for the following criteria and the time it takes to find it:

1,120,000 for RICHARD SHAVER. (0.18 seconds)
76,800 for THE SHAVER MYSTERIES. (0.18 seconds)
110,000 for THE DEROS. (0.21 seconds)
Results 1 - 10 of about 122,000 for Amazing Stories+The Shaver Mysteries. (0.32 seconds)
Results 1 - 10 of about 17,300 for The Shaver Mysteries+UFO's. (0.18 seconds)

With 1,120,000 positive references to the name Richard Shaver alone and 17,300 definite references to The Shaver Mysteries & UFO's in specific, its virtually nigh on impossible to even casually peruse the subject of UFO's in general without running across either the gentleman himself or the phenomena that bears his name - so perfectly naturally I bring the gentleman and his legacy to the world in general to your attention, this is after all yet another discussion about UFO's.

So how could we possibly discuss that without considering the man who inadvertently precursed the invention of the UFO Phenomena as we know it today?

Of course, by rights we really should be discussing Ray Palmer - not only the actual author, publisher and publicist for Richard (ma friends call me Dick) Shaver, Ray Palmer was also the gentleman who secured the rights to and published Kenneth Arnold's own account of the incident which sparked off the entire business regarding Flying Saucers right at the very begining...

Perhaps we'll leave that as the aside it is for now. You've obviously got a fair bit of reading to do if you're planning on getting up to speed on the subject of UFO's in general.

You ask me:


yo are tryingto imply that te research of Vallee, Mack and others is totally false, and the people today who have experiences are lieing

Research is never false duendy, only the conclusions one chooses to draw. I certainly didn't bring up the matter of either gentleman's research at any point and have cast not the slightest aspersion as to the integrity of either.

As to the latter - I'm implying nothing at all, I'm mearly pointing out the historical fact that actually, yes. Large numbers of perfectly ordinary, otherwise unrelated people have indeed, through absolutely no reason or motive of financial gain or, particularly even, fame, have elected voluntarily to stand up and go on record to relay their "experiences" of events which never actually happened.

Moreover, others in reading their accounts have indeed elected, purely through their own choice, to corroborate such "evidence" as "fact" and claimed the same thing happened to them.

A fairly typical example published in 1946 reads -

"Sirs:

I flew my last combat mission on May 26 [1945] when I was shot
up over Bassein and ditched my ship in Ramaree roads off
Chedubs Island. I was missing five days. I requested leave at
Kashmere (sic). I and Capt. (deleted by request) left Srinagar
and went to Rudok then through the Khese pass to the northern
foothills of the Karakoram. We found what we were looking for.
We knew what we were searching for.

For heaven's sake, drop the whole thing! You are playing with
dynamite. My companion and I fought our way out of a cave with
submachine guns. I have two 9" scars on my left arm that came
from wounds given me in the cave when I was 50 feet from a
moving object of any kind and in perfect silence. The muscles
were nearly ripped out. How? I don't know. My friend has a hole
the size of a dime in his right bicep. It was seared inside. How we
don't know. But we both believe we know more abou the Shaver
Mystery than any other pair.

You can imagine my fright when I picked up my first copy of
Amazing Stories and see you splashing words about the subject!"

There's no implication to it at all whatsoever d - it's all been published, documented and well commented on throughout the course of decades and resides in print within the original covers of Amazing Stories, Hidden Worlds and latterly reprinted in Fate - an enormous chunk of actual UFO history curiously absent from the mainstay of hardcore ET believer sites and publications...

Perish the thought anyone could impugn such open minded and ready-to-accept-anything people of anything so vulgar as wishing the past to remain well and truly forgotten - after all, that's the job of us sceptic's, right...? ;)

...so your saying that ALL thepeople Dr Mack researched about were secret Shaverists..? what?

Why duendy, that's a very astute question. What is a Shaverist, d? And when did I ever bring up or comment on the subject of John Mack...?

Oh, I remember now. I didn't. Turns out that was a rhetorical question after all. So what is a Shaverist supposed to be duendy, I've never in m'life heard of the term....

Why duendy, that's a very astute question. What is a Shaverist, d? And when did I ever bring up or comment on the subject of John Mack...?

Oh, I remember now. I didn't. Turns out that was a rhetorical question after all. So what is a Shaverist supposed to be duendy, I've never in m'life heard of the term....
think you have lost the plot a bit dude

Oh, I'm sorry d. There was me thinking we both know your out of answers and floundering. Tsk! Silly me... ;)

Oh, I'm sorry d. There was me thinking we both know your out of answers and floundering. Tsk! Silly me... ;)
no, i'm just amazed where you skeptics keep getting your hogenized theories rom which pertain to explain away ALL reports of 'anomalies'....'weird events that cant be explained?'...oh, Shaver did it....
kind of thinghey. you have found THE ANSWER. write a book and make yer million. we can all go home now
ahhhhhhhhhhh

Ok so back on the topic of Billy Meier.

Two more photos I found in another forum.

http://www.tjresearch.info/no_843.jpg

There seem to be a lot of photos where the object is leaning (or attached) to a tree. The tree here is possibly quite small. See the size of the grass.

http://www.tjresearch.info/no_1000.jpg

This one is so stupid I can't believe it would be taken seriously.

The Billy Meier website mentions that there were over a thousand taken but only shows a select few. If anyone finds the rest of them please post the link.

yeahhh comon you non-skeptics, get them fingers workin

and yes, them photies do look naff...and a half

Well, indeed Shaman. Kind of where I was going anyway, but you're timing here couldn't have been more apt. Well interjected, many thanks.

Yes, Billy Meier....

d - you began this topic with a very definite assertion gleaned from the specific website you linked to - quoting something to the effect that -

"The professional skeptics of te Meirs case have concocted all sorts of fanciful notions and theories as to how he hoaxed te evidence. But when challenged to prove their claims they repeatedly replied thqt it was not their job to attempt to duplicate evidence, although conducting temselves according to the scientific method would require it.... "

Clearly the author of which maintains the position that there remains nothing either untoward or else in anyway suspect regarding Meier's photographs - and yet, even casual scrutiny of the actual photographs themselves clearly demonstrates Meier's own technical expertise when it comes to producing obviously quite crude fanciful images leave a very great deal to be desired.

As photographic images go they remain neither terribly plausible or particularly well accomplished - some work better than others, but the point remains Meier himself maintains throughout that all of his photographs depict actual space vehicles of extraterrestrial origin - all of them. The good, the bad, the crashingly awful. These are all, if Meier is to be believed, UFO's here visiting earth and clearly very much of most of what Meier offers for scrutiny are actually no such thing of any sort.

Yet the gentleman in your quote eludes to no such recognition of any observation of the kind - and still you feel compelled to ask me:


no, i'm just amazed where you skeptics keep getting your hogenized theories rom which pertain to explain away ALL reports of 'anomalies'....'weird events that cant be explained?'...oh, Shaver did it....
kind of thinghey. you have found THE ANSWER. write a book and make yer million. we can all go home now
ahhhhhhhhhhh

These "anomalies" as you care to put them simply don't exist as reality, only in peoples belief. You're opening quote serves as the perfect example of this - the gentleman writing it alludes something otherwise extraordinary and inexplicable is being demonstrated by the "evidence" provided by Billy Meier and that it remains incumbent upon the rest of us to prove him wrong - yet, clearly, with regard to the material the gentleman is referencing nothing in the slightest "inexplicable" is being presented in the first place -

And it is this continuous ongoing process of first a someone maintaining that a "mystery" exists and b providing something spurious and not terribly plausible by way of "evidence" to support it that by in large very much does compromise the entire spectrum of ideas and notions UFO Belief occupies itself with hashing and re-hashing year after year after year - with not the slightest bit of forward headway to show for it.

In the intervening years between 1947 and the present day mankind has harnessed atomic power, developed the revolution in electronics and microprocessing, put men on the moon and has looked into space far enough to actually take photographs of literally the very dawn of time. The individual can now communicate globally to a considerable audience without need for vast wealth or great technical skill. Medicine, medical treatments, social and economic conditions have combined to actually increase the span of the individuals life itself. There has been progress and forward motion in every kind of human endeavour - except the beliefs associated with UFOs.

As soon as the term Flying saucer was first coined people started talking blathering nonsense about them and 58 years down the line people are still blathering on about the same sorry old bollocks still with nothing to show.

If the stuff UFO Belief bangs on about is real duendy, no one would have to fake anything - but they do. Frequently and all the time. Chaps like Billy Meier aren't the architects of this, they are merely people who help satisfy a vast, ill defined cultural belief that there's exists more to heaven and earth than life as we are constrained to live it provides us with.

We live in a culture that provides us with plenty of time to sit and idly wonder about life, the universe, what may or may not be out there. It's a pursuit we all follow, one way or another.

Yet the notion that, as with all other things, there exist some people who simply can't distinguish between what they believe in their heads and the actual world they're living it - this becomes the great unthinkable if the matter to hand happens to be the subject of peoples personal "experiences" with the occupants of UFO's?

What actually happened to that famously open mind the rest of us are supposed to demonstrate, but when it comes to certain notions and concepts, ones that don't agree with whatever dippy notion is being proposed as being real, suddenly we become at fault simply through being open minded enough to consider that possibility that actually, yes, people are actually capable of fantasising, of making things up, of (and perish the thought) actually lying through their teeth whenever the mood takes them.

Generally people in all walks of life are not only capable of acting in such a way, they act that way with either little or no provocation whatsoever - but if these people happen to believe in UFO's...

What, suddenly they become incapable of telling a fib or stretching the truth in the slightest little bit?

Given the sorts of outrageous claims people make about their experiences, I think not. And moreover, I think you think that to.

Y'know d, you're forever branding me as a "sceptic" - not that I'm in the slightest offended by the term, I singularly fail to see precisely how the term "sceptic" could ever possibly be taken as a sign of intellectual weakness or shortcoming on the part of the person possessive of such a characteristic.

But in my particular case I'm doubly delighted because, although y'don't like digging through things and reading up on stuff terribly much I know, as far as dyed-in-the-wool UFO nut-jobs go - I actually qualify as quite by far one of the most serious nut-jobs with regards to the subject resident in possibly the boards entire history.

I'm possibly the only board member ever to have ventured seriously that a vehicle that conforms to UFO Classification can actually be explained in terms of real world, applied physics.

I'm certainly one of the very, very few individuals around here that have ever published extensively on the subject outside the media of the internet - if this doesn't qualify me as a genuine nut-ball, I singularly fail to imagine what might.

In what has become an actual career that's kept me fully occupied for the last 15 years full time that I can do that and still come over as a sceptic believe me is a validation that is without price - but I don't manage to achieve that through being sceptical.

I do it because I have the ability to actually read.

And as for the sorts of spurious claims routinely discussion on the subject inevitably forces one to consider, I can honestly say all one is ever actually reading about isn't actually about human experiences, its about human perceptions. What people think, what people believe, what people yearn about.

It's got bugger all to do with UFO's themselves.

Oh, and for the record? Actually, yeah. I did write the book. And I got paid handsomely for it too and spent every penny on pure frivolity - :p

admit it mr ananymous. you dont know it all. ...please dont say yes you do or i will poke yu in the eye

your hubris backed up by your 'nuts and bolts' materialistic bias science cynially assumes that EVEYONE EVER to have shared areport about 'paranormal', abductions, seeing UFOs etc etc, must by either lying or 'mentaly ill' or 'fantasizing'....well, that to me is just NOT science for me. it is conclusion. and as far as i am aware, that aint science. real science doesn't lay down the myth of what reality 'is'--and if it DOESit becomes sciencism--a dogma like any other which i wont follow, and i hope others wont either

you attitude demeans our experience. yu push your view onto us with no qulification...and i dont mean letters after your name or a book under your belt etc, i mean HUMA qualification....someon who assumes to tell another THEIR experience....

even science is honest enough to admit they dont know that. as it cannot be measured--thus 'te mind/body/brain/mind problem' and the Hard Problem. ie., we dont KNOW the entireity of consciousness. and we dont KNOW matter/energy......if you say YOU do, your makin a fool of yourself. as flim flammy as ypu regardothers makig unsubstantiated claims

so, Do you understand consciousness my annonnymous?

admit it mr ananymous. you dont know it all. ...please dont say yes you do or i will poke yu in the eye

your hubris backed up by your 'nuts and bolts' materialistic bias science cynially assumes that EVEYONE EVER to have shared areport about 'paranormal', abductions, seeing UFOs etc etc, must by either lying or 'mentaly ill' or 'fantasizing'....well, that to me is just NOT science for me. it is conclusion. and as far as i am aware, that aint science. real science doesn't lay down the myth of what reality 'is'--and if it DOESit becomes sciencism--a dogma like any other which i wont follow, and i hope others wont either

you attitude demeans our experience. yu push your view onto us with no qulification...and i dont mean letters after your name or a book under your belt etc, i mean HUMA qualification....someon who assumes to tell another THEIR experience....

even science is honest enough to admit they dont know that. as it cannot be measured--thus 'te mind/body/brain/mind problem' and the Hard Problem. ie., we dont KNOW the entireity of consciousness. and we dont KNOW matter/energy......if you say YOU do, your makin a fool of yourself. as flim flammy as ypu regardothers makig unsubstantiated claims

so, Do you understand consciousness my annonnymous?

Duendy, I cannot help but roll on the floor laughing after reading one of your posts like this one! :D

All your spitting & sputtering and verbal thrashings are nothing but vain attempts to try and cover your lack of knowledge of practically anything beyond your own little artist's world.

You try to bait and switch and make it sound as if anyone who cannot explain consciousness must therefore not know anything else either. What a pathetic, dull-minded creature you are.

And yes, I'm about to contribute something to this thread - and in very plain English, too. You can believe whatever you wish. That the atmosphere is filled with alien craft or with secret flying machines that belong only to the super-rich; that your bellybutton is inhabited by the survivors from Atlantis; that your neighbor is plotting to poison the whole world - whatever you like.

But just don't expect normal, intelligent people to agree with you.

And here's a little more plain English: you, and those like you that buy into every bit of UFOology that comes your way, alien abductions and the whole nine yards, are in serious need of a white jacket and padded room. Your pot is more than cracked, it's lying all over the place in broken shards.

Of course I don't understand consciousness d, I don't in the slightest claim to. But equally, simply because we have the capacity to believe a thing is possible, it doesn't mean that simply because we can think it, that it is -

Consider the Middle Ages and the popularly held belief in Witchcraft - how many women found themselves tortured and brutally murdered only through the completely spurious belief that Witches and Daemons exist.

Actually, when y'gets down to it, History is replete with truly idiot notions both compelling people and being used as excuses to perform the most unspeakable acts.

I mean, I take your point implicitly d so, please, not poking out m'eyeballs just yet but why actually is it so unbelievable that large quantities of people can simply make a thing up and run with it - Nations are founded on such myths, entire Peoples go to war through ill founded and poorly conceived beliefs regarding their place in the world and that of the the next door neighbours.

Why should UFO contactees, in practice, be any less screwed up than the rest of the people on this planet? Moreover, if they're actually telling the truth to begin with, then why do people like Billy Meier have to lie about their "experiences" - because, when Meier and the like do these sorts of things, fake up "evidence" and call it the real thing, this is what they are doing.

Lying.

And y'can't say it doesn't happen d because, all too rather often, it does.

I don't for an instant doubt peoples sincerity concerning the sorts of experiences people personally believe in. But, exactly as with the people who bought into the whole business concerning The Shaver Mystery as discussed, I don't doubt for an instant that anyone of the ordinary people writing in to Amazing Tales concerning their own experiences of The Deros believed with every fibre of their being that what they were describing actually happend...

But it didn't, and that's really been the whole point all along. It didn't happen.

And not a one of them ever seemed to understand that.

So, yes. It happens. Delusion. A horrible word, but real.

I'm possibly the only board member ever to have ventured seriously that a vehicle that conforms to UFO Classification can actually be explained in terms of real world, applied physics.

interesting
where can i find this "venturing"?

"UFO Classification"?

ps: i rather not google ;)

I'm probably going to regret this but..... (http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/how-by-frank-marshal/Index.html) And no.

thanks
could you please elaborate on what you meant by "conforms to ufo classification?"

Of course I don't understand consciousness d, I don't in the slightest claim to. But equally, simply because we have the capacity to believe a thing is possible, it doesn't mean that simply because we can think it, that it is -

me]]]]]]]good. you admiit you dont know something. and no, people who claim to have been abducted--for example, dont think it, but experience it!

Consider the Middle Ages and the popularly held belief in Witchcraft - how many women found themselves tortured and brutally murdered only through the completely spurious belief that Witches and Daemons exist.

me]]]]]]]true. but there MAY have been also involvement in --shall we say--non appraoved spiritual practices, which the church condemened as 'witchcraft.
Also compare te ignorance of thepersecutors with the ignoance of the mental health establishment right now who concoct a term 'mental illness' which they persecute. Thomas Szasz gfoes into all this in his book The Manufacture of Madness, where he shoes theincredible similarity between the persecution of witches and the persecution of the 'mentally ill'. YOU do it in a way of ridicule. of accusing, etc....!


Actually, when y'gets down to it, History is replete with truly idiot notions both compelling people and being used as excuses to perform the most unspeakable acts.

me::::::exactamo......the biggie now is the myth of mental illness. the evil that has been done to people due the false belief in THAT!....do YOU believe in it mr annonymous?

I mean, I take your point implicitly d so, please, not poking out m'eyeballs just yet but why actually is it so unbelievable that large quantities of people can simply make a thing up and run with it - Nations are founded on such myths, entire Peoples go to war through ill founded and poorly conceived beliefs regarding their place in the world and that of the the next door neighbours.

me]]]]]]]]True. the huuuuuge myth now is materialism. do you believe in THAT, for example?

Why should UFO contactees, in practice, be any less screwed up than the rest of the people on this planet? Moreover, if they're actually telling the truth to begin with, then why do people like Billy Meier have to lie about their "experiences" - because, when Meier and the like do these sorts of things, fake up "evidence" and call it the real thing, this is what they are doing.

me]]]]]]]]]yes i know. if someone's lying they are lying. how can we tell if someone's lying. you always ask for solid evidence dont you. but what if an xperience doesn't provide any yet was extremely real to the person.
so what has to be looked at then isthe myth_of_demanding_'solid'_evidence........gotta be flexible mate if you wanna be hip and on the ball. tis is why i a quizzing you on consciousness. it natrually acientific to expand one's field of inquiry. but i see the skeptics here HIDING and not inquiring. and i trust my observation

Lying.

And y'can't say it doesn't happen d because, all too rather often, it does.

I don't for an instant doubt peoples sincerity concerning the sorts of experiences people personally believe in. But, exactly as with the people who bought into the whole business concerning The Shaver Mystery as discussed, I don't doubt for an instant that anyone of the ordinary people writing in to Amazing Tales concerning their own experiences of The Deros believed with every fibre of their being that what they were describing actually happend...

me]]]]]]]gwell not only do abductionees, forexample, believe with every fibre of their being someting happened. ome have actual transplants and scars FROM experience !

But it didn't, and that's really been the whole point all along. It didn't happen.

And not a one of them ever seemed to understand that.

me]]]]]]]now you are using your Shaver thing to explain away people whove had experiences whove never even HEARDof that book, as i hadn't. and also condesendingly patronizingly telling peple they cant understand their own experience

So, yes. It happens. Delusion. A horrible word, but real.


me]]]]]]]but as i am pointing you. YOU are under one. ypu dont understand consciousness yet seem to knpw what is going on, i hasten to guess you believe the mental illness myth, and materialistic positivist reductive science.....THAT aint delusion??

As if you, duendy, were one who "understands consciousness". :D
*rolls in laughter*

thanks
could you please elaborate on what you meant by "conforms to ufo classification?"


...And no.

And?


me]]]]]]]]]yes i know. if someone's lying they are lying. how can we tell if someone's lying. you always ask for solid evidence dont you. but what if an xperience doesn't provide any yet was extremely real to the person.

Then duendy, with the greatest possible respect, in that case then there is no evidence that anything at all took place, is there?

Take some stellar halucinogens from aliens, then smoke weed with them at an all night party and then go sightseeing to Saturn, and whoever after this would bother about proving that aliens really were here? :m: :D

So that's what you've been up to - I'd been wondering where you've been for the past couple of light years... ;)

Yeah, the trips really have been awesome! ^_^
Been travelling a bit around, spent some time at Alpha Centauri jump station, then there was an awesome party in Andromeda galaxy. It's a yearly (Galaxy Middle Time) all galaxy celebration counting till it collides with Milky Way. They put bets for which galaxy will remain with more stars intact, then the local party divides into two totally drunk groups and mashes at one another, that group of which most remain standing wins, and presumably the galaxy which they represent.
But nothing is cooler to see than M45 Pleiades, it's a magical place, and their crystal amulets are guaranteed to keep you stoned as long as you are wearing them.

Now I'm just relaxing a bit on this planet, quite a nice, mostly harmless place.

"I am so high, I can hear Heaven.

Oh, but Heaven... No Heaven, don't hear me."

.... can't for the life of me remember where that comes from. Seemed of the appropriate somehow.


:m:

Ummm...Nickelback's frontman and some other fat dude with long hair did this song "Hero" for the Spiderman soundtrack. That's where it's from.

JD droppin' knowledge dimes on yo' ass!

And?



Then duendy, with the greatest possible respect, in that case then there is no evidence that anything at all took place, is there?
YES. the person(s)'s witness!

As if you, duendy, were one who "understands consciousness". :D
*rolls in laughter*

the zombie laughs

YES. the person(s)'s witness!
I can wintess you anything you want to hear. ;)
And then teh alienz came and raped my goat just last eveing! :rolleyes:

avatar:" a neuron fires. therefore i think"

/rotfl

avatar:" a neuron fires. therefore i think"

/rotfl
I've never said such a sentence, so quit lying and making up your fantasy quotes.

it's not a goddamn quote
its a fucking parody of your garbage
you know this

The quality of my posts is measured only in excellency, Gustav baby.

Ummm...Nickelback's frontman and some other fat dude with long hair did this song "Hero" for the Spiderman soundtrack. That's where it's from.

JD droppin' knowledge dimes on yo' ass!

... Indeed you do, good call. That's been bugging me all day. Muchly obliged... :)



YES. the person(s)'s witness!

Mmmm.... The very same person that could just as easily be making it up?

I can wintess you anything you want to hear. ;)
And then teh alienz came and raped my goat just last eveing! :rolleyes:
do you feel rejected. wanna talk?

The quality of my posts is measured only in excellency, Gustav baby.

hoohaa
little avatar thinks he is saying something significant

/rotfl

Actually Avatar thinks he is saying something amusing and, unlike yourself G, Avatar is absolutely right.

heh
since when does "amusing" preclude "significant?

hoohaa
little avatar thinks he is saying something significant

/rotfl
And in the eight day Avatar created Gustav, and saw that it was too petty to be true.
Then Avatar created silence and it was good.

Actually Avatar thinks he is saying something amusing and, unlike yourself G, Avatar is absolutely right.

we now have m thinking he said something significant

/rotfl

heh
since when does "amusing" preclude "significant?

Who says that it does, and no. I never have to think about that sort of thing G. ;)

And in the eight day Avatar created Gustav, and saw that it was too petty to be true.
Then Avatar created silence and it was good.

quit lying and making up your fantasy scenarios

When it acknowledges wit.

come now m

there is very little bloody red meat here to sate your ravenous appetites

surely you can locate another venue where you can sink those fangs into lil ole g?

look around

/rotfl

... em.... yes.

What is that you're quoting there G?

... em.... yes.

What is that you're quoting there G?

now now m

even edits are stored and not deleted
do not play the fool
shall i ask james to check?


Who says that it does, and no. I never have to think about that sort of thing G. ;)

thats it dog
the shit you replaced the original quote with

/rotfl

shall i ask james to check?

If you feel you must G, by all means.

ahh but that all depends on you m!

surely you must have an angle to play since you seemingly cannot recollect an edit you made. you then go on to question me as to the source of my quote

i smell a troll


When it acknowledges wit.

posted 5.28


Who says that it does, and no. I never have to think about that sort of thing G. ;)

posted 5.34

6 minutes m

go on now
finish it

/rotfl

Not at all Gustav, if you believe something apparently untoward has taken place, you have every right to report the matter. Please, do be my guest. I'm sure James would love to hear from you.

did you not comprehend when i said that it all depends how you wanna play this pathetic attempt at a troll?
do you not comprehend that you are supposed to being the injured party with wild accusations?
do you not comprehend that you are supposed to be reporting the matter?

whats the matter m?

no balls to follow your own script?
good to know tho that you harbor grudges

/rotfl

n00bs!
i tell ya!

What is that you're quoting there G?

go on dog
get a second opinion
i am sure james would love to hear from you

/rotfl

Really, why?

I'm sure James would love to hear from you.

really, why?

see me and m down by the schoolyard


/rotfl

G, I'm only enquiring why you think James would love to here from me.

as was i, g
as was i

:cool:

Well, yes. I suppose you are. But, being a gentleman and all that, ladies first... ;)

...and dogs after

/flounces ahead pouting prettily

hmm
seems like the dog is contentedly sitting and licking its ass
cmere boy!

:D

I'm sure James will get the chance to read this thread, however I think he'll probably justify why I'm closing it... The Threads topic has been completely lost, in fact I'm not even sure what you are discussing any more. I would of posted it in the Cesspool, but I don't think even the guys that frequent there would make much sense of it.