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10-29-09, 02:14 PM
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#21
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Originally Posted by S.A.M. Ideally aid to the other countries in the region should also be counted as aid for Israel since these monies are given because of "peace" agreements to keep these authoritarian governments at "peace" with Israel
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By that logic, the aid given to Israel should be counted as aid for Egypt, Jordan and Saudi Arabia. We're paying them to refrain from employing their military superiority at the expense of our other clients.
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10-30-09, 02:34 AM
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#22
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Originally Posted by quadraphonics By that logic, the aid given to Israel should be counted as aid for Egypt, Jordan and Saudi Arabia. We're paying them to refrain from employing their military superiority at the expense of our other clients.
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How would this count, in your opinion?
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House Resolution to Condemn U.N. Investigator’s Israeli War Crimes Report
TWI has acquired the text of a congressional resolution that may be introduced in the next few days condemning the findings of U.N. investigator Richard Goldstone’s report into war crimes during Israel’s war with Hamas in Gaza this past winter.
The resolution — drafted by Reps. Ileana Ros-Lehtinen (R-Fla.), Dan Burton (R-Ind.), Gary Ackerman (D-N.Y.) and Howard Berman (D-Calif.) — which condemns Goldstone’s work in very harsh terms, is sure to generate controversy in Congress, within the Obama administration and among peace watchers.
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Also the reason that Palestine does not have a seat on the UN boils down to the US Security Council veto. What is that in aid of?
http://www.informationclearinghouse....rticle2000.htm
Last edited by S.A.M.; 10-30-09 at 02:43 AM..
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CptBork
Physics Grad Student (1,409 posts)
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10-31-09, 01:29 AM
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#23
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Originally Posted by Lucysnow Do you really believe that Iran would destabilize their own region? I don't believe that anymore than I believe Israel or N. Korea would use it in anything else but an endgame scenario. Having nukes is generally used as political leverage and intimidation. Iran with nukes will level out Israel's political dominance. Notice how gingerly the US deals with N. Korea since they have ignored all pleas to negotiate on their own missile plans. I do agree with your assessment on trade barriers. We cannot blame all of US foreign policy on any one lobby.
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I believe the vast majority of Iranians are far too sane to ever conceive of such an act. Many of their religious leaders even condemn the idea of nuclear weapons outright. Problem is
1) As we all saw recently, Ahmadinejad doesn't seem to speak for most Iranians. If he does, we'll never really be able to tell, because democratically elected leaders don't get elected before the vote's been counted, and they don't sustain a uniform ~60% support rate all across their nations including areas dominated by ethnicities that hate their guts.
2) Ahmadinejad apparently belongs to a sect of Shiite islam which claims the coming of the 12th Imam can be sped up by triggering a global apocalypse. Nukes + Man who desires apocalypse = Look the frack out
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10-31-09, 03:27 AM
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#24
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Uncle Sam does it there and he does not even live in the neighborhood. See Iran's neighbors. Uncle Israel has also recently moved into Irans >6000 year old neighborhood and seems to think a settler colonial enterprise based on mythology is real.
Between these delusional fools armed to the teeth, who wouldn't want to keep themselves on par?
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mike47
Registered Senior User (1,842 posts)
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10-31-09, 07:37 AM
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#25
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Originally Posted by quadraphonics By that logic, the aid given to Israel should be counted as aid for Egypt, Jordan and Saudi Arabia. We're paying them to refrain from employing their military superiority at the expense of our other clients.
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The blind US support for Israel is hurting the world peace . Israel was founded on terror tactics and it continued this practice until 2009 .
Also the US is not a peaceful nation and is looking for any pretext to invade weaker nations to steal their resources and put military bases there .
Two nuts being so close due to the strong Jewish lobby in the US is a prescription for a disaster after another in the region and elsewhere .
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10-31-09, 07:47 AM
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#26
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Wait.
You would grant Israel, a nation that consistently causes the US to be viewed in hostile terms in the middle east, an exemption from Tarrifs.
But you would not grant Australia, A nation that has sided with you in nearly every U.N. resolution, and participated in Korea, Vietnam, Iraq one and two, Afghanistan, exemption from agricultural tarrifs ?
Huh. Figures, fighting with you counts for nothing, but having a cozy relationship with your defense industry does.
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mike47
Registered Senior User (1,842 posts)
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10-31-09, 11:10 AM
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#27
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America will always be a laughing matter until they cut ties with Israel and start working on peace instead of wars .
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11-02-09, 01:36 AM
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#28
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Gideon Levy on the Israel-US "special relationship"
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Before no other country on the planet does the United States kneel and plead like this. In other trouble spots, America takes a different tone. It bombs in Afghanistan, invades Iraq and threatens sanctions against Iran and North Korea. Did anyone in Washington consider begging Saddam Hussein to withdraw from occupied territory in Kuwait?
But Israel the occupier, the stubborn contrarian that continues to mock America and the world by building settlements and abusing the Palestinians, receives different treatment. Another massage to the national ego in one video, more embarrassing praise in another.
Now is the time to say to the United States: Enough flattery. If you don’t change the tone, nothing will change. As long as Israel feels the United States is in its pocket, and that America’s automatic veto will save it from condemnations and sanctions, that it will receive massive aid unconditionally, and that it can continue waging punitive, lethal campaigns without a word from Washington, killing, destroying and imprisoning without the world’s policeman making a sound, it will continue in its ways.
Illegal acts like the occupation and settlement expansion, and offensives that may have involved war crimes, as in Gaza, deserve a different approach. If America and the world had issued condemnations after Operation Summer Rains in 2006 – which left 400 Palestinians dead and severe infrastructure damage in the first major operation in Gaza since the disengagement – then Operation Cast Lead never would have been launched.
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http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1124928.html
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11-03-09, 06:11 PM
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#29
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Uncle Sam is toeing the *oggers line
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The U.S. Congress on Tuesday overwhelmingly backed a resolution encouraging President Barack Obama's administration to oppose any endorsement of the Goldstone Commission's damning report on Israel's offensive in the Gaza Strip earlier this year.
The final tally had 344 votes in favor of the resolution and 36 opposing it.
The UN-commissioned report accuses both Israel and Hamas of carrying out war crimes in the Gaza Strip during the offensive there earlier this year. The Human Rights Council has commissioned the report, which was endorsed by the Palestinian Authority.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1125593.html
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Did this even make the US media?
Congressman Baird had some things to say yesterday, which obviously fell on deaf ears:
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Before House Members vote on H.Res. 867, regarding the U.N. Goldstone report on the Gaza conflict, there are a few questions worth asking.
First, why are we bringing this resolution to the floor without ever giving former South African Constitutional Court Justice Richard Goldstone a hearing to explain his findings? Have those who will vote on H.Res. 867 actually read the resolution? Have they read the Goldstone report? Are they aware that Justice Goldstone has issued a paragraph-by-paragraph response, available on my Web site at baird.house.gov, to H.Res. 867 pointing out that many of its assertions are factually inaccurate or deeply misleading?
Since scarcely a dozen House Members have actually been to Gaza , what actual firsthand knowledge do the rest of the Members of Congress possess on which to base their judgment of the merits of H.Res. 867 or the Goldstone report?
What will it say about this Congress and our country if we so readily seek to block "any further consideration" of a human rights investigation produced by one of the most respected jurists in the world today, a man who led the investigations of abuses in South Africa, the former Yugoslavia, Rwanda and Kosovo, and worked to identify and prosecute Nazi war criminals as a member of the Panel of the Commission of Enquiry into the Activities of Nazism in Argentina?
As one of the first two American officials, along with Rep. Keith Ellison (D-Minn.), to enter Gaza shortly after the conclusion of major bombing from "Operation Cast Lead," then again several months later, I have seen firsthand the devastating destruction of hospitals, schools, homes, industries and infrastructure. Much of that devastation was wrought using U.S. manufactured and paid for weaponry. I have also spoken with health workers, average Gazans, nongovernmental organization relief workers and many others.
In addition, I have been to the Israeli town of Sderot , which has been the target of repeated rocket attacks, and to a number of Palestinian towns and Israeli settlements in the West Bank . Colleagues who have not been to the region may wish to view some of the images and interviews from these visits on my Web site.
With the information from these personal visits and on-the-ground knowledge, I read with care and interest the Goldstone report in its entirety, and my firm conclusion is that, although the findings may be unpleasant and troubling, they are, unfortunately, consistent with the facts and evidence. In my judgment, far from meriting the obstruction called for in H.Res. 867, the Goldstone report is without question worthy of further investigation.a
I know this conclusion is not easily accepted, and I know it raises serious charges against entities and individuals on both sides of this conflict, Israel and Hamas. But if our own country is truly to stand for human rights and the rule of law, and if facts matter, how can we do other than insist that legitimate questions and evidence are followed by further investigation and, if necessary and warranted, appropriate consequences?
H.Res. 867 is very serious business. If, as Goldstone asserts and the evidence I have seen supports, there were in fact gross violations of international law and human rights on all sides, we cannot in good conscience support H.Res. 867.
This is about much more than just another imposed political litmus test that we are all too often asked to perform. This is about whether we as individuals and this Congress as an institution find it acceptable to drop white phosphorous on civilian targets, to rocket civilian communities, to destroy hospitals and schools, to use civilians as human shields, and to deliberately destroy nonmilitary factories, industries and basic water, electrical and sanitation infrastructure. This is about whether it is acceptable to restrict the movement, opportunities and hopes of more than a million people every single day.
At the end of the day, this is also about our own domestic security. If we are seen internationally as condoning violations of human rights and international law, if our money and our weaponry play a leading role in those violations, and if we reflexively obstruct the findings of someone with the credentials, history and integrity of Justice Goldstone, it can only diminish our international standing and our own security.
http://www.baird.house.gov/index.php...1041&Itemid=99
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Too bad no one in Congress gives a shit about the American people. Well, except for 36 people that is. We need a list of names of the real Americans here. How to find out who voted against this resolution?
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11-03-09, 09:24 PM
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#31
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Originally Posted by S.A.M. Did this even make the US media?
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Sure.
Did the fact that Congressional Resolutions carry no legal weight make it to where ever you are? Because that's the reason nobody pays much attention to them.
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11-03-09, 11:58 PM
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#32
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344 for, 36 against, 22 present, 30 not voting
Nays
Baird
Baldwin
Blumenauer
Boustany
Capps
Carson (IN)
Clarke
Clay
Davis (KY)
Dingell
Doggett
Edwards (MD)
Ellison
Filner
Grijalva
Hinchey
Johnson, E. B.
Kilpatrick (MI)
Kucinich
Lee (CA)
Lynch
McCollum
McDermott
McGovern
Miller, George
Moran (VA)
Olver
Pastor (AZ)
Paul
Price (NC)
Rahall
Snyder
Stark
Waters
Watt
Woolsey
33 Democrats 3 Republicans
Voting present
Becerra
Cooper
Dahlkemper
DeFazio
Delahunt
Duncan
Eshoo
Farr Heinrich
Hirono
Honda
Johnson (GA)
Jones
Kaptur
Loebsack
Lofgren, Zoe Luján
Obey
Speier
Tierney
Welch
Wu
20 democrats and 3 Republicans
not voting
Abercrombie
Ackerman
Bachmann
Barrett (SC)
Boucher
Brady (PA)
Capuano
Conyers
Davis (AL)
Davis (TN) Deal (GA)
Gordon (TN)
Gutierrez
Hall (NY)
Holt
Meeks (NY)
Murphy, Patrick
Nunes
Pallone
Pascrell Payne
Pingree (ME)
Price (GA)
Sánchez, Linda T.
Sires
Souder
Stupak
Towns
Velázquez
Wamp
23 democrats and 7 republicans
Voting opposed to honesty and justice and or voting in favor of cowardice and intellectual blindness
The other 344 members of the house.
179 democrats and 165 Republicans.
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Same as always.
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11-04-09, 12:56 AM
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#33
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Originally Posted by nirakar 36 against, 22 present, 30 not voting
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Thanks. Its good to know it was more than just 36.
Guess they failed the "imposed political litmus test ".
Or doesn't abstention count?
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11-04-09, 02:02 AM
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#34
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An abstention is less of a sucking up to the Israel lobby than a yes vote is and may get those congress people in trouble with the Israel lobby.
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11-04-09, 02:19 AM
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#35
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Does anyone else find it weird that with so many pressing issues in American society the government is busy passing [at full speed] resolutions on the Gaza war, Iran and Goldstone?
Do any resolutions of importance to Americans ever warrant such speedy action?
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11-04-09, 02:22 AM
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#36
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Originally Posted by S.A.M. Does anyone else find it weird that with so many pressing issues in American society the government is busy passing [at full speed] resolutions on the Gaza war, Iran and Goldstone?
Do any resolutions of importance to Americans ever warrant such speedy action?
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No. I do find it weird. I'm caught between not caring, myself, and wondering why the USA doesn't just hold Israel to a single-state rule coupled with an anti-apartheid regulation on all relations with Israel.
~String
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joepistole
Honor, Courage, Commitment (5,925 posts)
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11-04-09, 08:25 AM
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#37
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Originally Posted by superstring01 No. I do find it weird. I'm caught between not caring, myself, and wondering why the USA doesn't just hold Israel to a single-state rule coupled with an anti-apartheid regulation on all relations with Israel.
~String
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I think that makes a lot of sense, except both sides will likely not go for it for their own reasons. But Israel should be held accountable as they are the big power in the region.
The current fragemenation of government allows Israel to blame rather than fix. And we need more solutions in the area and less finger pointing.
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11-04-09, 03:10 PM
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#38
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Originally Posted by joepistole I think that makes a lot of sense, except both sides will likely not go for it for their own reasons. But Israel should be held accountable as they are the big power in the region.
The current fragemenation of government allows Israel to blame rather than fix. And we need more solutions in the area and less finger pointing.
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Now just why should Israel be held to a higher standard than the Palestinians?
Remember they would have a state if they and the Arabs hadn't conducted a war they didn't win.
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joepistole
Honor, Courage, Commitment (5,925 posts)
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11-04-09, 03:54 PM
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#39
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Originally Posted by Buffalo Roam Now just why should Israel be held to a higher standard than the Palestinians?
Remember they would have a state if they and the Arabs hadn't conducted a war they didn't win.
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Probably because as I said, they/Israel are the big guns in the region. They are the ones who receive most of the aid we give the region. Probably because it is in the interests of peace for both sides. Only the extremists win by continuing the current policies in the region.
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11-04-09, 04:15 PM
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#40
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Originally Posted by joepistole Probably because as I said, they/Israel are the big guns in the region. They are the ones who receive most of the aid we give the region. Probably because it is in the interests of peace for both sides. Only the extremists win by continuing the current policies in the region.
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Again why Israel, the Palestinians and Arabs have had multiple chances to make peace and always engage in Hudna, isn't it time to hold them fully accountable for the constant attacks and warfare?
Like I have said, if the Palestinians hadn't started a fight they couldn't win, and then invited their Arab brothers to come to the rescue, and they screwed the job, and lost, shouldn't peace have been made, which would have allowed the implementation of U.N.181 and the establishment of a Palestinian State on the west bank of the Jordan, even though there was a Palestinian State already on the east bank?
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