-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hi everyone, Don't know exactly how to use this Post a Message thing, first time at it. Maybe won't even work or I won't be able to find my way back to see what people think about my thoughts. Anyway here goes nothing. This site has many an interesting line of conversation to follow through. It covers things from UFO's and aliens through to issues about the existence of GOD and along the way there has been a fair amount of sarcasms and stirring, I hope all in good fun. My view to let everyone know up front is that GOD is real and so are aliens (but the aliens are not from out there or in the future). I can't prove GOD with science but then if I could we would not need faith to believe and without that we will never understand or be pleasing to GOD. (Why do I believe? Read the attached at the bottom of the message, sometimes it takes a good wack to wake up.) Getting back to aliens and UFO's there is a lot of conspiracy stuff going on and a lot of opinions and ideas being put up as facts. But what is the real question that we want answered? Are we alone in the universe? Are we a freak of nature? Are we a biological and evolutional mistake? I would dare say that these are the reasons that everyone came here, (I actualy came here by mistake, thought it was interesting and decided to join in) It was and is that burning question that drives us to search for an answer, either scientific, spiritual or emotional. We will all continue the search until we find an answer that appeals to our views and knowledge of life, eternity, science, history etc. The only difference is the area we look for the answer. Personally I look at the Bible. Sure its not a scientifically accurate account of the history of mankind and planet Earth. Its put together from fragments of texts in different languages and translated in various ways found in different locations at different times in history and written by different authors that lived in vastly differing geographical, social and time periods throughout history. Pretty big call to ask someone to believe what it says right? But that’s exactly why I believe it. What other religious work has been compiled in this manner and still maintained the same theme: GOD IS GOD. God is a supreme being and master of all creation, again the faith issue kicks in, you either believe this or you don't, you either believe with your whole heart or you don't - no in between. Sorry, you'll find I jump around a lot with my thoughts and go off on a tangent sometimes. Getting back to the aliens, I said that I believe they exist but their not from the stars and their not from the future, so where are they from? The past? Actually my thoughts are that they existed before mankind was created, they existed in a realm of beauty and perfection until they rebelled and were cast down. These so called aliens are actually fallen angels, no this is not my theory its actually Biblical and if you want to pursue it further there are numerous web sites about it. By the way you won't find that theory in a Hollywood blockbuster movie (yet). But when you’ve researched this and many other topical issues a burning question still remains. Many of the responses mentioned about Jesus and I’d have to say that through all my study and the knowledge that I have accumulated it has not strengthened my faith in him. What has strengthened my faith is realising that the whole Bible points to Jesus. What has strengthened my faith is simply reading and obeying his words with a child like faith. All these issues of UFO’s, aliens, Loch Ness monster, Ghosts the paranormal etc are mearly a smokescreen designed to distract us from this simple fact – the faith of a child. Sure go ahead research and investigate all these things, but all they will do is run you in circles. Sorry everyone I can’t put up a concrete argument up about God or creation, but then again science can’t put up a concrete argument about the big bang or evolution or an expanding or collapsing universe etc. So it all comes down to what you put your faith in. Me in God, believe me if I could prove God to any of you I would love to, first believe and then you will see things in a different light. God calls himself I AM that I AM, dwell on this and try to comprehend everything that ever was and ever will be in an instant. No go hey? You see we are 3 dimensional beings living in a 3D world travelling through the fourth dimension of time relying on five senses to relate to all we experience in this journey. Now compared to the great I AM who the bible says we are created in the image of you would then have to concur that He has the same 5 senses, however His are not limited to or constrained by the dimensions that mans are. Also His senses are not limited to certain sound frequency ranges or light wave lengths or temperature sensitivity ranges or pressure capacity limits or odour and taste detection limits. Why do you think humankind is trying to reach out to the stars? What do you think is the driving force behind humankind having an insatiable thirst for knowledge and technological development? What drives us to study things at a subatomic level and to study quantum mechanics? We have developed the technology to view things never imagined, to listen to the heartbeat of a dying star in a distant galaxy, to cure the once incurable, to manipulate particles at a sub atomic level and create nano machines, to humanly travel at supersonic speed (mach 26+ to escape earths atmosphere) to communicate at the speed of light, to live in hostile uninhabitable environments such as space for extended periods of time, to genetically engineer food crops for greater and pest resistant yields, to genetically clone and manipulate life, IVF, growing human ears on the back of a rat, mapping the entire human gene and the list goes on. Our quest is a quest to become like God, to develop the same capabilities that he has. It’s a quest that started at the fall of man when we ate the forbidden fruit in an effort to become just like God. A quest to be able to transcend the limits that bind us through knowledge and technology and thereby say that we as humankind have achieved the status of god. We have build and are building a new Babylon, a tower of technology that spirals upwards towards the heavens in an effort to reach and assault the throne of God. What I’m trying to get across is the massive greatness of an infinite God compared to finite man, we only see in part with the capacity and abilities that we have, but He sees the whole. We often judge wrongly because of this but His judgement is sound because of his immense and infinite greatness. It a complex thing to try to understand the mind of God, only one human has ever done this – Jesus. He said that he only said and did the things he saw the Father doing. Study His life and actions and you get a glimpse of the mind of God towards mankind. Put your faith in Him and allow the Holy Spirit to lead you and you will start to lead a life that would in many peoples opinions be fanatical, but it will be a life that makes an eternal difference in the lives of others and your own. There is only one way for man to reach God – Jesus. Oh before I go the reason I believe: WHO ARE YOU? This event occurred half my lifetime ago when I was 17. To record the details of the experience in writing does not do it true justice. The closest thing that I can parallel it to would be what many may refer to as a near death experience, however I can not call it this as at no point did I even consider that I had died or was going to die. This event took place in a remote central NSW town called Seals Rocks during a surfing safari with some friends. I had been surfing and had just hopped out of the water when I became violently ill, nausea, vomiting, dizzy, shaking and weak. After I had stopped being sick I managed to compose myself, change out of my wet suit into dry clothes and sit in the front seat of the van to try to get some rest. The next thing I recall was that I found myself (and I mean myself in the real sense, as real as typing this record) in a tunnel experiencing the sensation of falling or sliding in a forward direction. The walls of this tunnel were rainbow coloured like oil on water and were moving past at high speed. As this experience began a voice repeatedly echoed a question "WHO ARE YOU? WHO ARE YOU? WHO ARE YOU?" needless to say that I felt very anxious. All my senses were working in overdrive and the sensation of falling increased, it felt as though I was going faster and faster with the question "WHO ARE YOU? WHO ARE YOU? WHO ARE YOU? pressing in on me as I answered "I'm Tony, I'm Tony, I'm Tony". While this was happening I was trying to reach out and slow myself down against the walls of the tunnel, this was futile for no matter how close the walls looked I could not reach them and the speed and the question kept on and on. I can’t put a time span against these events everything seemed to be flashing past yet the tunnel went on and on. Time did not seem relevant in that place, I would measure it more in its intensity than anything else a relentless intensity which grew and grew and grew. Suddenly I found myself motionless in a large round room with an old wooden table and chair, oil coloured walls and the question "WHO ARE YOU? WHO ARE YOU? WHO ARE YOU?" echoing in my head. The intensity was relentless I had reached the end of my rope, fallen off and was screaming "I'M TONY, I'M TONY, I'M TONY, and sobbing, but who are you? At this point the repeating question stopped. I looked up from the table at which I was seated and there before me was an opening door, beyond the door there was brilliant white light. When the door was fully opened I could make out the form of a man wearing a long single piece garment. The light stopped at the doorway and did not enter the round room, neither did the figure. (The effect was similar to that created when you face towards the sun and hold your hand in front to shadow your eyes, the intensity of the light behind your hand causes it to appear as a shadow in front of you with a distinct outline). The figure before me answered my question: "I AM THE ONE WHO HELPS THOSE WHO HELP THEMSELVES" I immediately found myself back in the front seat of the van. I firmly believe that on that day I stood before Jesus, the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. The question that was asked of me "WHO ARE YOU?" was not the question of "What's your name?" It’s a question that cuts through bone and flesh to the very heart of a man HIS SPIRIT, and asks the real question: Who are you in the eyes of GOD? When asked that question what answer can you give? At that point in my life I had no other answer but my name, a name that was foreign to God. I considered this and ask myself if I died today and the same question was asked what would my answer be? From that point on I searched for and I believe found God. In the Gospels of the Bible I found recorded the history of a man and God, the words of Jesus became alive to me and are etched on my heart. I came from a back ground with minimal religious influence, my path of discovery occurred between God and me through the bible without a great deal of outside influence from a church or religion. Did I get “saved” on that day? No (the light did not enter the room), but I got excited, scared, upset, happy and went through just about every other emotion possible. I had come into His presence, into an experience of something that I could not fully fathom or understand. I believe that my true point of conversion occurred as I was walking home from a party one night along the beach. I remember looking at the stars in the sky, the greatness of His creation and crying out to the heavens, “GOD I DON’T KNOW WHO YOU ARE BUT I WANT TO KNOW YOU, I NEED YOU”. It was a cry of a heart longing to repent, longing for forgiveness, a longing that I could not suppress and from that day on I have been following Him, not always feeling his presence even sometimes shying away and rebelling but when you’ve tasted of who he really is there is no hiding your heart from him. I now attend church on a fairly regular basis with my family, however church or other people are not the cornerstone of my faith. Even today I would not label myself with a denominational tag I simply say that I’m a disciple of Christ – a Christian. Unfortunately even the true meaning of the name Christian has been lost due the fragmentation of the true Church and creation of denominations and titles, along with the many and varied arguments about doctrine. When the Lord answered me on the day that I cried out “But who are you” I believe He was saying three things. “I AM” – He stated “I AM” . If asked who I truly believe in my simple reply is: I believe in "I AM" Jesus Christ the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End, the one who was and is and is to come, the holy lamb of God. His death and resurrection. His call for repentance and baptism. His sending of a comforter, the Holy Spirit to indwell us as temples of the LIVING GOD. His close and intimate friendship. “THE ONE” – Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Even though there was one figure before me they were all present. “WHO HELPS THOSE WHO HELP THEMSELVES” – On the surface this may sound strange as the bible teaches selflessness, however in the context of salvation we need to help ourselves to His gift of grace. We have been given everything to lead us to a life of Godliness through Jesus Christ who loves us. If we really want to follow Him we have to help ourselves by taking up His cross daily. God Almighty has given us everything we need to discover who he really is through the Gospels, the Word and by the Holy Spirit of God. We need to take up the challenge and help ourselves by Repenting, Obeying Gods Word and Following Jesus, laying down our lives at the foot of the cross. Since then I have discovered that the Bible is more than just a history book or a map to life, it is more than a book of theology and rules. It is God’s Living Water of Life and all who drink from it will never thirst again. In it we find examples of how men and women followed God, how they walked with him from day to day and KNEW HIM FACE to FACE. They knew Him first hand, not from any stories, not from any songs, not based on any other persons experience or instructions but from their own Love, Obedience and Yearning for Him and His Love for them. My hearts cry is to know Him like this also. Not to have a relationship with Him based on vain imaginings or confining Him to my limited understanding, but to truly walk with Him and talk with Him the way that Adam, Mosses, Abraham all the prophets and patriarchs did. To see Him FACE to FACE. It reminds me of the account in the Gospel of the Samaritan woman who was fetching water and met Jesus at the well. She went back to the town and told everyone about Him and many believed because of her testimony, however it didn’t finish there. The towns people went out to Jesus and he stayed with them for a few days. At the end of his stay the towns folk said to the woman, “We no longer believe because of what you told us, for we ourselves have heard from Him and know that He is the saviour of the world” So the moral to this story? Firstly, don’t believe everything someone tells you without testing their character. Secondly, sadly there are not to many people left with solid character. So what then? Who is telling the truth? Who has the truth? What is the truth? Jesus said “I am the way, the truth and the life. No man come to the Father but by me”. Jesus said “The day is coming when those who worship the Father will worship Him in spirit and TRUTH”. If you want truth but don’t trust what others say then go to the source of truth and ask for yourself. His name is Jesus. But be warned, if you really want the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help me God will turn your life, your way of thinking and approaching life completely upside down. Then you will be able to say like the towns folk did “I don’t believe because of what you told me, I believe because I have heard from Him myself”. It’s a funny situation really in that then you will know the reality of God and find yourself trying to convince others of it. IP: Logged dexter Member posted January 12, 2000 11:05 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- welcome tony, as you will find out, i am the young one here, but about your post.... your right, you do jump around a lot. a little too much.... and you had about a paragrah on aliens, compared to a ton of god stuff, jus tto remind you, this is 'aliens and extraterrestials' and not religious stuff. but my dumb parents are making me get off... so i cant finish it now..bue as the terminator once said,,"i'll be back" ------------------ thats all i got -dexter IP: Logged Tony H2o Junior Member posted January 12, 2000 11:22 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dexter, Yeah, I do jump around - sorry. Lotsa God stuff, not much on the little grey guys - Opps, wrong spot. Like I said I'm new at this stuff and meant to drop this on the religo discussion. I'll see if I can fix it????? HELP!!!
Thank you, Tony.... Your witness was quite powerful and quite similar to my experiences... too much to go into again right now... please let me welcome you and say... AMEN, Brother!!! Love ya!!!
Just keeping this updated, getting most traffic on this from the grey chasers. From Oxygen, quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sorry everyone I can't put up a concrete argument up about God or creation, but then again science can't put up a concrete argument about the big bang or evolution or an expanding or collapsing universe etc. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Reply: If I were a doctor, my response would be this: I can replace a faulty organ with a healthy one without God. Can you do it without science? Hi Oxygen, Thanks for the welcome and taking the time to read my post, I know it was rather wordy. And no I won't take it too personal. As you may have read I meant to stick this on the religo discussion line but I'm getting more feedback from the grey chasers. I wonder who's cage I've rattled? quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sorry everyone I can't put up a concrete argument up about God or creation, but then again science can't put up a concrete argument about the big bang or evolution or an expanding or collapsing universe etc. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Reply: If I were a doctor, my response would be this: I can replace a faulty organ with a healthy one without God. Can you do it without science? That's excellent straight to the point, what I pick up is that we have a fundamental disagreement at the onset. I think that God is the author and creator of the universe and holds it all together - based on faith. You on the otherhand have faith in the capacity of science to perform great works independent of God. What would you think if I said both were right? Human kind has been doing things independent of God throughout history and ignorant of the fact that God makes the rain to fall on the righteous and wicked alike. We live, breath and exist to perform the feats we do by His grace. You place faith in science not realising that in the background is God holding it all together. Science is an effort by man to be like God to see the infinite detail of the universe as He does to understand our place in this swirling mass of energy. This is not wrong in itself, infact they say that to mimic someone is the greatest form of flattery. What is wrong however is when we use this knowledge to replace or ignore our need for God. Am I making sense to you? I am an engineer, I am scientifically minded and I ask God very hard questions (some of which I don't have answers for or should I say understanding of the answers yet). Questioning as you have done above is not wrong, it is good because it shows that we are searching for answers. But I will not let my limited scientific knowledge and ability keep me from earnestly searching out and seeking His face. Please keep your mind and heart open to God. So yes science can replace a fault organ with a healthy one without the knowledge or ignorant of the fact that God is in the room. Can I do it without science? Who is this question being asked of? Me or God? And what is this question asking? I can't do it but God can do this with or without science depending on where we place our faith. Whenever people came to Christ and were healed it was according to their faith in Him. It was never according to Him imposing His will or power over their lives. I don't know if you read the Bible but there is a story about a woman who suffered at the hands of many doctors for many years with haemorrhaging. After exhausting every other avenue of possibility she heard about Jesus and in a desperate last attempt sought Him for help. Finally she found Him but to her dismay there was a large crowd surrounding Him and in her weakened state she crawled on her hands and knees to touch the hem of his garment, for she reasoned that if she could only touch him she would be made whole. Eventually she reached Him and upon touching His hem was healed. At this very instant Jesus turned to His followers and asked "Who touched me?", well they were all a bit surprised by the question because the crowd was all over Him jostling for positions and many had touched Him. But Jesus insisted that someone had touched Him ( physically and spiritually) and that power had moved through Him. With this the woman came forward knowing that she was healed and confessed that she had been the one. Jesus's response "Woman YOUR FAITH has made you whole". So to answer the question "No I can't replace an organ without science, however GOD can heal a diseased organ through desperate faith". The woman was desperate, maybe we need to be as desperate in our search for the truth! Keep asking questions, no matter how hard to answer. Remember "Seek and you will find". P.S Please take this personally!!!
Tony H2o, Welcome Brother. Bring more Christians!!!!!!!!! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Your Brother In Christ, ISDAMan
Tony-God is not a fact. God is only a theory. Ignorance gives us gods to explain the inexplicable. Knowledge gives us science and reason. God does not hold science together, God only holds science's place until we find the answer to the question we are asking. Eventually we find the answers and they last for eternity, at least until we plunge ourselves back into the Dark Ages, where ignorance, and gods, reign supreme. And then somebody discovers science and learning and the whole thing begins again. ------------------ I may not agree with what you have to say, but I will fight, kill, and die for your right to say it.
