Healthcare (AMERICANS ONLY!!!)

Had some thoughts listening to NPR talk about American healthcare and stuff. Non-Americans, please fuck off. This thread isn't for you. You're already wallowing in either a sty of corruption, socialism, or both.

The capitalist model, for a system that functions on selfishness and greed, works suprisingly well. Under capitalism, we have seen great advancements in virtually every part of everything. It's widely agreed that, if you want something done, let the market take care of it. Capitalism ends up working efficiently and with the greatest good for everyone, though it is based on selfish principles. Counter-intuituve, but, fundamentally, greed appears to be the best model yet.

This same model has been applied to the healthcare system in America, a system whose underlying principle is "humans are cool, let's keep them alive by providing medicine and shit that other people paid for," yet with the American twist of corporatism and greed. Should work better, right? Greed is good? Capitalism works, everything better.

Is it? Does it?
The underlying assumption that capitalism works is that a) producers are free to produce, and b) consumers are free to consume.

We see that this is blocked, however by a) patent laws and the FDA, and b) how much value do you place on your life.

Allow me to elaborate a little.
a) A company produces a drug, at great expense, due to extensive mandatory testing, and liability insurance and whatnot. Naturally, they're not going to share their new miracle cure because
b) you're dying and willing to sell everything you own to buy that cure. And so is your family.

So I see two problems-
1. The high cost of producing cures, operations, etc
2. The virtually limitless value a person places on their own life. Essentially, the drug companies and doctors become a monopoly. They can place almost any cost they like on what they produce because a) there aren't many cures/surgeons and b) people will pay whatever they charge.


Your thoughts, Americans?

 

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Well, you could almost apply that same logic with most any other goods and services. There's a "high cost" of producing meat and vegatables; the peope have to eat, there's a limited number of producers; people have to pay what they charge.

The thing that people fail to take into account is the basics of supply and demand in capitalism. But by the same token, they often exaggerate the slowness by which supply and demand work. For example, farmers and ranchers could just stop supplying food to the public ....sure it cause a major upset in the system, but it would also put those farmers and ranchers out of business! And, in a short time, others would see the profit in it, and begin producing the food at a reasonable cost. But it takes time, right?

Capitalism works ...but it's not and never has been an immediate system of economics. The government tries to smooth out those harsh spikes in the system, but the government oversteps it's authority by keeping "some" checks and balances in place.

National healthcare, national insurance is just one more step towards socialism, which is basically giving to the poor, the unemployed, the sick, the disabled, etc, by taking from those who work and have money! I don't see how anyone can see that as "fair". What if everyone who could work, just said, "Fuck it, I ain't workin' no more!"

If someone needs cared for, then let the family members care for them ...that's what families are for. It's not the governments place to pay for such people.

Baron Max

 

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And if their only family members are poor and working you let them die?

 

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I'm with Baron. And I take it one step further. I, my friends and family, and everyone in my church family use faith healing. We are never sick. If something does try to get us, we just believe/pray it away.

 

There are charities, churches, sympathetic people who'll take up donations, there are doctors who'll donate their time and effort, .....etc.

But ...people are going to die! It's a fact of life. It's not as if we each owe something to every person on the planet ...that's just totally ridiculous and stupid and idiotic and insane and ....all other such terms as that.

If "we" hold such a view as owing all humans such things, then how can we deny services to, say, the poor in India and Africa? We work, earn money then give it to all those people? Just like that?

Baron Max

 

We are sending them billions. I doubt most of it ever gets to them. Their corrupt government takes it. How much improvement have you seen in the past 5 years? None? Me neither. Except when the Christian charities go directly into the country and help the people. Or when Oprah puts on a show and builds a girl's school.

Other than that, I see it as getting worse. They need to stop having children too.

 

I will be the first to violate Roman directive #1(what are you gonna do about it?).

Socialistic systems basically come about so people stay "happy", when they do not get the wonder drug that only rich people can afford, not only do they get mad, they get even.

 

I will be the second one to violate Roman´s directive, and he can´t do anything about it.

USA is the only civilized country that does not give healthcare to all its citizens, that says it all. Your imperialist capitalist government is so cool, shitting money and stuff, but they do not garantee healthcare to all.

In other words, USA has money to spair, but the choose not to spend it in healthcare for all as equals.

 

It is NOT my government's job to give me or anyone else free (sub-standard) healthcare. I DON'T WANT SOCIALIZED MEDICINE. It's a farce! Countries who have it have horrible healthcare. They wait months for emergency operations. Years for other things. I will work and pay for my own insurance. Anytime the government is involved in anything, it becomes a joke. No thanks.

 

Like a true Christian, "let the poor die poor in their own sickness". Thats the way to go, my bad.

 

Let the poor get jobs. Let them get educated. Let them get ahead. Let them get out of their choice. Let them get rich. This is America where ANYONE WHO WANTS TO can be rich and successful.

My church has personally pulled people out of the pits of their own bad choices/decisions. Anyone can do it.

 

Ok, let the poors without jobs rot in their own sickness!! is that better?

 

My point is, what is the deal with denying any one healthcare, specially if you have the money. I find that inhumane, but that is just my humble opinion.

 

Muhahahah im not american and i posted!

 

Because this is America. And people who CHOOSE to work and become successful should NOT have to support those who won't.

Yes there may be exceptions. But how's this for an idea: How about not having kids unless you can afford them? How about not living a stupid, dangerous lifestyle that lands you in the hospital? How about some self-responsibility? How about eating properly so you don't end up with food related illness? How about getting an education so you don't end up poor? How about having some ambition instead of expecting the rich to pay your way?

Poverty in America is a choice. No one has to be poor here. Hell, even most of the criminal aliens are not poor.

 

I your CHOOSE to discriminate people because they choose not to work, that is your problem, not theirs. They are going to die physically, but your soul is already dying.

 

We're all going to die physically.
My soul is just fine, thank you.

 

Not at all. I chose long ago to have NO pity for those who choose not to work. I firmly believe in the statement, "He that will not work, let him not eat." But my soul is alive and healthy because I also belive in helping those who CANNOT work - they deserve my help, the lazy do not. They only consume and do not produce AND reduce the amount of resources needed to help those who deserve help. The lazy are nothing but leeches - let them die.

 

For certain patient population there is a federal/state run program called Medicaid. This program also includes a program which offers low priced medical coverage to people that can not get insurance but have income. It varies from state to state and you have to comply with the program to be eligible.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medicaid

You can get medical coverage if you have money and want to pay for it, you will not be denied but it can be expensive.

Once a drug is FDA approved the pharmaceutical company which holds the patent will usually be able to assist and supply you with free or reduced drug. We use these programs often and they are very affective for some of the new cancer agents as they are expensive. Many people qualify for the clinical trial phase especially when the drug reaches third phase which is usually large national study groups. The study sponsor covers the drug costs and any study related expense.

I do not agree with all the aspects of health care in the US but when I hear about what some of the patients went through before coming here (US) to be treated and the length of time between consults and treatment I was very concerned. No one is ever denied emergency care, I myself have been a trauma patient that came in with no insurance, I had one of the best trauma teams in the US treat me from the surgeons to the trauma Drs. no one cared that I did not have insurance, they saved my life. They assisted me in all aspects of clinical care, follow up care, and any continued care I require. I now work in the center, different department but the same hospital and I have insurance, I pay for it but I would rather pay the small amount that I have to and have access to some the best specialists internationally with some of the best research teams associated with them.

 

The reason the USA has money to spare is because we don't give it to every fuckin' lazy jerk who claims to want it or need it!!

Baron Max