i always had this idea that the human race is some kind of alien expermient, sure enough i wasnt the first person to think of this as there is alot of information on the web regarding this. assuming the whole UFO coverup conspiracy and alien abductions are real then sure why not, after all it is possible.

my reasons for having such an absurd idea is 1. the human race isnt the only intelligent life in the universe, 2. the universe is so big and old then there must be civilizations millions of years old or even billions of years old, so they would know everything thats happening in their area of the galaxy or the galaxy itself, 3. if UFO sightings are real and are of other planets (not our own secret aircraft) then theres a good chance they were always around and will always be around and that would have some implications on why.

if we are being visited by ETs then there is a reason why they are doing so.
our technological advancement is exponential and is accelerating, ofcourse this is all our own doing but i think our genetics may have played a role. what im trying to say is our brains have improved over the last few thousand years and it may be from our friends above.

our purpose could be a sort of slave race that operates their machinery inturn for a higher quality of life without the conflict of our daily life (crime, suffering,disease). right now our world is "survival of the fittest" where the best and brightest have a good life, so our twisted world may actually benefit us as a whole, as the saying goes "what doesnt kill us only makes us stronger", this all applies to war, disease, famine and so on.

who knows, its all speculation.

Interesting. Your reaon for believing is predicated on the following:

1. the human race isnt the only intelligent life in the universe
That's an assumption, albeit a reasonable one so far as we know.


2. the universe is so big and old then there must be civilizations millions of years old or even billions of years old, so they would know everything thats happening in their area of the galaxy or the galaxy itself
Predicated on (1) but it also assumes that the speed of light barrier isn't insuperable.


3. if UFO sightings are real and are of other planets (not our own secret aircraft) then theres a good chance they were always around and will always be around and that would have some implications on why.
Oops. What evidence is there that UFOs (UAPs) are genuinly craft from elsewhere?


our technological advancement is exponential and is accelerating, ofcourse this is all our own doing but i think our genetics may have played a role. what im trying to say is our brains have improved over the last few thousand years and it may be from our friends above.
1) If our brains have improved "in the last few thousand years" how have they done so?
Claiming it's from "our friends above" takes their existence as an a priori argument - aliens have altered our brains and I can prove they exist because they've altered our brains. :rolleyes:


our purpose could be a sort of slave race that operates their machinery inturn for a higher quality of life without the conflict of our daily life (crime, suffering,disease). right now our world is "survival of the fittest" where the best and brightest have a good life, so our twisted world may actually benefit us as a whole, as the saying goes "what doesnt kill us only makes us stronger", this all applies to war, disease, famine and so on.

who knows, its all speculation.
Well at least you got it right with the final word.

i always had this idea that the human race is some kind of alien expermient, sure enough i wasnt the first person to think of this as there is alot of information on the web regarding this. assuming the whole UFO coverup conspiracy and alien abductions are real then sure why not, after all it is possible.

my reasons for having such an absurd idea is 1. the human race isnt the only intelligent life in the universe, 2. the universe is so big and old then there must be civilizations millions of years old or even billions of years old, so they would know everything thats happening in their area of the galaxy or the galaxy itself, 3. if UFO sightings are real and are of other planets (not our own secret aircraft) then theres a good chance they were always around and will always be around and that would have some implications on why.

if we are being visited by ETs then there is a reason why they are doing so.
our technological advancement is exponential and is accelerating, ofcourse this is all our own doing but i think our genetics may have played a role. what im trying to say is our brains have improved over the last few thousand years and it may be from our friends above.

our purpose could be a sort of slave race that operates their machinery inturn for a higher quality of life without the conflict of our daily life (crime, suffering,disease). right now our world is "survival of the fittest" where the best and brightest have a good life, so our twisted world may actually benefit us as a whole, as the saying goes "what doesnt kill us only makes us stronger", this all applies to war, disease, famine and so on.

who knows, its all speculation.

One way to examine this scenario is to imagine what you would do if you were the alien that discovered a lush planet with a billion or so number of years of evolution under it's belt already. You find some social animals with potential, make a few genetic changes and monitor the results. Once advancement is on track you stay out of sight and take notes, but no longer interfere. They will either survive or not on their own.

well there is evidence that aircraft are flying around doing breakneck maneuvers being tracked on radar.
and claiming our brains has improved in the last thousand years just reflects on our understanding of mathematics and inventors that was born, the same applies to early man in the stone age using the same tools for thousands of years then comparing that to the tool age and building pyramids, does the term "quantum leap" apply?

well there is evidence that aircraft are flying around doing breakneck maneuvers being tracked on radar.
No there isn't.


and claiming our brains has improved in the last thousand years just reflects on our understanding of mathematics and inventors that was born, the same applies to early man in the stone age using the same tools for thousands of years then comparing that to the tool age and building pyramids
All that shows is that we've learned things: it is not an indication that "our brains have altered".


does the term "quantum leap" apply?
Since it has taken a couple of thousand years (at least) to get where we are then decidely: no.
What we know (and can do) now is based on what we have gradually and painstakingly built up over time.

i am well aware that our society is what we built over time, we go to school and learn and build stuff and elevate our standard of living. but learning and doing complex things over thousands of years has helped us, i know genetics play a role but learning stuff doesnt make us "genetically smarter" if there is such a term. also the fact that having a larger population on the earth gives us more ppl that are smarter that are able to go onto be engineers, doctors, scientists and so on to discover and invent more things.

is it not possible that advancing society also advances our brain in the areas that we use it. also has there been a study on comparing the brain of a native american to a european (white man) brain?

is it not possible that advancing society also advances our brain in the areas that we use it. also has there been a study on comparing the brain of a native american to a european (white man) brain?

One it is possible.
Two:


Myth: Some ethnic groups have genetically inferior IQ's.

Fact: Poverty creates large IQ differences even between groups of the same ethnicity.

http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-inferiorIQ.htm
I would add that discrimination produces poverty.
I suspect it also produces what's called learned helplessness. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learned_helplessness) The kids are told "You're stupid because you're a __________"
And so they don't try hard to do well.
I mean, why try hard if you already know you are going to fail?

ok lets take it a step further and consider eugenetics, where only the best and brightest can reproduce. would that accelerate our intelligence? i personally think it would but i am also a believer in the idea that a genius is created and not born, but having good genes help.

i am well aware that our society is what we built over time, we go to school and learn and build stuff and elevate our standard of living. but learning and doing complex things over thousands of years has helped us, i know genetics play a role but learning stuff doesnt make us "genetically smarter" if there is such a term. also the fact that having a larger population on the earth gives us more ppl that are smarter that are able to go onto be engineers, doctors, scientists and so on to discover and invent more things.
You have no evidence that we are "genetically smarter" than we were a thousand or two years ago.


is it not possible that advancing society also advances our brain in the areas that we use it.
Huh?


also has there been a study on comparing the brain of a native american to a european (white man) brain?
Have you ever heard of Google?

there is alot of BS on google and i have no idea what sites have legitimate material, an example of this is there are websites that have proof that jesus was a real person and other websites that says jesus never historically existed. thats why i come here.

as for my comment about being genetically smart, i was referring to if society (people in general) used tools, math, science, and had a good overall education and used that in everyday life would that make our offspring smarter compared to a group of people living on an island worshipping a rock and live in straw huts doing nothing with their lives, then fast forward a thousand years.

Interesting. Your reaon for believing is predicated on the following:

That's an assumption, albeit a reasonable one so far as we know.


Predicated on (1) but it also assumes that the speed of light barrier isn't insuperable.


Oops. What evidence is there that UFOs (UAPs) are genuinly craft from elsewhere?


1) If our brains have improved "in the last few thousand years" how have they done so?
Claiming it's from "our friends above" takes their existence as an a priori argument - aliens have altered our brains and I can prove they exist because they've altered our brains. :rolleyes:


Well at least you got it right with the final word.

Dyw do you believe in evolution? And do you believe the credible sightees very low % are lying

Dyw do you believe in evolution?
Huh?


And do you believe the credible sightees very low % are lying
Not necessarily lying, but equally not necessarily accurate in their reporting.

Huh?


Not necessarily lying, but equally not necessarily accurate in their reporting.

evolution, do you believe in it

ok, because some people have put there jobs/lifes on the line, had everything to lose and nothing to gain, yet still came out, i dont think they would have if they ddint 110% believe or couldnt describe what they saw

evolution, do you believe in it
What does that have to do with anything? Oh wait, you think evolution operates over a couple of thousand years to such an effect?


ok, because some people have put there jobs/lifes on the line, had everything to lose and nothing to gain, yet still came out, i dont think they would have if they ddint 110% believe or couldnt describe what they saw
Which bit of "not necessarily accurate" did you miss?

Grats. I think you stole the plot for Kubriks 2001.

Alien "artifact" earth is not a new hypothesis at all.

Hmmmm......irrespective of the origin of our species, I could well imagine the other mammals that are losing their habitat to our kind questioning what the 'alien agenda' might be.

One of the theories of origin includes Panspermia which questions whether humans actually are indigenous to this planet, unless I have missed something in recent science.

Perhaps 'WE' are the aliens?

What does that have to do with anything? Oh wait, you think evolution operates over a couple of thousand years to such an effect?


Which bit of "not necessarily accurate" did you miss?

first point is a fail assumption. but to the point if you do then your not so ignorant to think it cannot happen elsware if it happened here

and 2
i find it very hard to believe a pilot would miss recognize something thats is much much bigger than his plane following him as a flare.. if you really think thats possible then not sure what to tell you

Assuming that previous generations weren't smart is doing them a serious injustice. It's quite easy to look back in time and see the obvious, but quite difficult to be in those earlier times without modern advantages and come up with new solutions while just trying to stay alive. It only appears that we got some kind of boost to improve things because as we advance technologically and knowledge-wise, it makes conditions better to continue to improve. When you don't have to hunt, forage, or grow crops all day, you have more time to dedicate to exploring the world around you, or to make a better wheel. The average person in the past was quite intelligent, maybe not in book smarts, but in real world applications.

I would submit that we've plateaued out in the average person, who relies much more on the tools around them than their own mind and body. Knowing how to research something rather than googling the answer (which isn't always the right answer), knowing how to use techniques in math rather than punching some keys on a calculator (again, not always the right answer, GIGO), knowing how to think outside the box to find a solution instead of just going along with the flow. Hell, just walking a few blocks vs. taking some sort of transportation...

Throw someone from a few centuries ago into the modern world...there'd be a shock, but they'd be able to adjust. Throw a average modern person back in time...I doubt they'd survive, mentally or physically.

first point is a fail assumption. but to the point if you do then your not so ignorant to think it cannot happen elsware if it happened here
Huh?
You have yet to show "it" has happpened here.


and 2
i find it very hard to believe a pilot would miss recognize something thats is much much bigger than his plane following him as a flare.. if you really think thats possible then not sure what to tell you
It's not only possible I have been present when similar things were done. Hard luck.

Hmmmm......irrespective of the origin of our species, I could well imagine the other mammals that are losing their habitat to our kind questioning what the 'alien agenda' might be.

One of the theories of origin includes Panspermia which questions whether humans actually are indigenous to this planet, unless I have missed something in recent science.

Perhaps 'WE' are the aliens?

Not unless all life on earth is alien. The DNA we share with all other life on earth makes that very clear.

It doesn't solve anything to say that higher intelligence created lower intelligence. This is what people say to easily solve a problem. There are many solutions that work better backwards than forwards...

"A universe created this Universe."
"A Chicken created an egg."
"An alien created man."
"God created everything."

Just simple solutions for the lazy people.

It doesn't solve anything to say that higher intelligence created lower intelligence. This is what people say to easily solve a problem. There are many solutions that work better backwards than forwards...

"A universe created this Universe."
"A Chicken created an egg."
"An alien created man."
"God created everything."

Just simple solutions for the lazy people.

Goofy.

It would solve our origins. Humans at least.

Not unless all life on earth is alien. The DNA we share with all other life on earth makes that very clear.

Yup except for about 200 base pairs. Genetics people chalk it up to bacteria fucking with us. Not sure if I believe them. I wonder if any other species are missing as much "ancestral" DNA as us....

Goofy.

It would solve our origins. Humans at least.

Not really, Science has entire schools devoted to mankind, Such as medicine, history, biology, philosophy etc. It could be postulated that over time mankind would amass such a wealth of knowledge on the subject of "Self", that the very creation of the universe and themselves would be the outcome.

I guess you could imply that our existence is our own question for which we, ourselves, look for the answer to.

Why would there be a third-party involvement in a history and existence that does not concern them?

The theory is we are a DNA farm. Didn't say it was a good theory.

Okay, what if it was aliens that tinkered with our DNA in the past. What would their motivation be for doing that? What would they have to gain by doing that? How much is it costing them to do that?

I don't know what the answers to the first two questions might be. But I can make a good guess about that third question, and considering the time and distance involved in using this planet as a lab over millions of years. It is a considerable investment, more than the entire gross product of the human race sense we started farming to some distant time in the future. So the answers to 1 & 2 becomes very important if we are still thinking aliens are involved.

If the aliens are advanced enough to cross intergalactic distances in a relatively short period of time(such as a thousand years or less) then why would they not be equally advanced in the area of genetics? Why are they so hopelessly backwards in genetics that they have to use living beings as "DNA farms"? Why not just synthetically create it themselves(even we can do this, though we still need to use yeast to stitch the synthetic DNA together)? And why do they use DNA anyways(if they evolved on a different planet, under what's likely to be different environmental conditions and subject to different circumstances then they would very likely use some other form of genetic information)?

These are questions that need to be answered.

well there is evidence that aircraft are flying around doing breakneck maneuvers being tracked on radar...


No there isn't.

fringe is actually correct in this one case. There is a video attached to the page of Britain's released UFO files (courtesy of their Freedom of Information Act). The part you would be interested in starts at 4:52 on the video's timeline.

The rest of fringe's stuff is classic woo naturally.

Well there's evidence that radar equipment recorded such things, but no actual validation that it was aircraft creating those readings. The best explanation is equipment failure.

fringe is actually correct in this one case. There is a video attached to the page of Britain's released UFO files (courtesy of their Freedom of Information Act). The part you would be interested in starts at 4:52 on the video's timeline.
Um, no.
His claim is that there are aircraft tracked on radar doing these things.
Admittedly there are radar returns that indicate "something" appears to be doing these manoeuvres but we cannot tell if they are craft at all. Or even if it is a "continuously existing phenomenon". In other words a radar sweeps the sky. "Something is at position X on one sweep, and something (possibly something else altogether) is at position Y on the next.
There is no evidence that what is at position X at time 1 is is actually the same thing that is at position Y at time 2.
Bear in mind that radar is capable of tracking many things, not all of which are "material"...

Well there's evidence that radar equipment recorded such things, but no actual validation that it was aircraft creating those readings. The best explanation is equipment failure.

The case I pointed out was detected by radar in 2 different countries (Britain and the U.S.). What can be said is that it wasn't radar failure, it was airborn, it could follow a British aircraft, and it could move at speeds that modern day aircrafts are incapable of.

Um, no.
His claim is that there are aircraft tracked on radar doing these things.
Admittedly there are radar returns that indicate "something" appears to be doing these manoeuvres but we cannot tell if they are craft at all. Or even if it is a "continuously existing phenomenon". In other words a radar sweeps the sky. "Something is at position X on one sweep, and something (possibly something else altogether) is at position Y on the next.
There is no evidence that what is at position X at time 1 is is actually the same thing that is at position Y at time 2.
Bear in mind that radar is capable of tracking many things, not all of which are "material"...

I understand where you are coming from. You are correct in that a radar can track a multitude of airborn phenomena that could end up looking like a sequence of motions from a single object. What I pointed out doesn't share this description. My apologies for not posting the website in my last post. It is:

http://ufos.nationalarchives.gov.uk/

The video I am referring to is the Podcast on the upper right of the page.

Nothing there removes mechanical failure as a possible explanation, and given that it's the explanation that requires the fewest assumptions it's the best explanation we have available. Unless, of course, you can show that FTL travel is possible, that it is technically feasible, and produce an actual extra terrestrial.

Genuine UFO sightings are quite common, given that a UFO is merely a flying object which has yet to be identified. However the likelihood that these UFOs are the interstellar or intergalactic crafts of extraterrestrials is remarkably low. Higher than, say, a deity creating the universe, but still extremely minuscule.

The case I pointed out was detected by radar in 2 different countries (Britain and the U.S.).
Untrue: it may have been tracked US radar (but it was from the US base at Lakenheath in the UK). (The Venom was incapable of crossing the Atlantic!)


What I pointed out doesn't share this description.
But it may well do. The radar tracking the aircraft (RAF Venoms) was a sweeping (rotating) radar.

And, strangely enough, according to that report (and the transcript) there was only ONE person (Wimbledon) who made this claim: there are no records...

The "similar" story (from Noyes) does not quite jibe with the Wimbledon account.

Nothing there removes mechanical failure as a possible explanation, and given that it's the explanation that requires the fewest assumptions it's the best explanation we have available.

You mis-applied occam's razor there ;3. While it's possible that both countries had the exact same mechanical failure, it's not very likely (correctly applied occam's razor). I am not advocating FTL travel or an alien pilot. What I am pointing out is evidence of an object in the air that was detected, tail-gated a British jet for a while, and was able to move at speeds that modern aircraft cannot. In other words it was a genuine unidentified flying object. That's where the evidence ends.

We can speculate about aliens, advanced U.S. technology, private sector technology, etc. all we want; however, those would be mere speculations.

Untrue: it may have been tracked US radar (but it was from the US base at Lakenheath in the UK). (The Venom was incapable of crossing the Atlantic!)

After listening to the video again and checking the geography, you are 100% correct (my bad). Two radar systems owned by different countries detected it but it wasn't detected across two different countries.



But it may well do. The radar tracking the aircraft (RAF Venoms) was a sweeping (rotating) radar.

And, strangely enough, according to that report (and the transcript) there was only ONE person (Wimbledon) who made this claim: there are no records...

The "similar" story (from Noyes) does not quite jibe with the Wimbledon account.

I'll take a look at the video again.

But it may well do. The radar tracking the aircraft (RAF Venoms) was a sweeping (rotating) radar.

And, strangely enough, according to that report (and the transcript) there was only ONE person (Wimbledon) who made this claim: there are no records...

The "similar" story (from Noyes) does not quite jibe with the Wimbledon account.

I looked at the video again and tracked the sequence of events. Noyes didn't issue a statement that was for or against Wimbledon's account. Here is what the video stated:

U.S.: Reported fast moving blip.
Freddie Wimbledon (RAF Fighter Controller): Confirmed.
RAF Fighter Command: Ordered a Venom interceptor to intercept.
Venom Interceptor Pilot: Confirmed contact and then lost contact.
Freddie Wimbledon (RAF Fighter Controller): Told the pilot the object was now tailgating him.
RAF Fighter Command: Ordered a 2nd venom Interceptor to intercept.
Freddie Wimbledon (RAF Fighter Controller): Reported that the object zoomed off.
Ministry of Defense: Confirmed that all records of the event were lost or destroyed.
Ralph Noyes: Said he was shown UFO gun camera film from the Venom Interceptors hosted by the MoD.
MoD: Said no trace of these videos exist.
Ralph Noyes: Reported that a spate of U.S. spotted UFO sightings over Washington DC was simply American hysteria (after indirectly investigating them). This spate occured the same year as the event in question.
Ralph Noyes: Said UFOs were not a defense threat.

Noyes didn't issue a statement that was for or against Wimbledon's account. Here is what the video stated:

Ralph Noyes: Said he was shown UFO gun camera film from the Venom Interceptors hosted by the MoD.
From the transcript:

This Lakenheath incident is also mentioned by retired MoD official Ralph Noyes who, in a letter to MoD in 1986, said he had been shown gun camera film of UFOs taken by RAF Venom aircrew at a secret screening in MoD Main Building in 1970.

Is it genuinely the same incident?
No mention of gun camera shots being taken in Wimbledon's account, that simply says "made contact and then (more or less immediately?) lost it again.
There's a considerable range difference between radar detection and opening up with a gun camera.

Radar detecting UFOs is incredibly common and could be anything from an unusual bird migration(tightly packed flocks can appear as a single object on radar) to an unknown type of aircraft as all radar readings have to be compared to known radar profiles. If something with an unknown profile(such as a currently existing aircraft with a modified frame) is detected then of course it's going to be a UFO. Technically every single flying object detected, whether by radar or even by sight, starts off as a UFO. I fail to see what the significance is as just about any explanation, including multiple sensitive systems experiencing identical mechanical failures, is more likely than ETs.

The reason I mentioned ETs in relation to this was that they were the original topic of the thread, not UFOs.

From the transcript:


Is it genuinely the same incident?
No mention of gun camera shots being taken in Wimbledon's account, that simply says "made contact and then (more or less immediately?) lost it again.
There's a considerable range difference between radar detection and opening up with a gun camera.

Don't know, it was implied but never explicitly stated.

Radar detecting UFOs is incredibly common and could be anything from an unusual bird migration(tightly packed flocks can appear as a single object on radar) to an unknown type of aircraft as all radar readings have to be compared to known radar profiles. If something with an unknown profile(such as a currently existing aircraft with a modified frame) is detected then of course it's going to be a UFO. Technically every single flying object detected, whether by radar or even by sight, starts off as a UFO. I fail to see what the significance is as just about any explanation, including multiple sensitive systems experiencing identical mechanical failures, is more likely than ETs.

The significance of course was that an object was detected by 2 independent radar systems, was confirmed (briefly) by a pilot, tailgated the pilot, and then zoomed off.



The reason I mentioned ETs in relation to this was that they were the original topic of the thread, not UFOs.

I understand. The reason why I raised this is because out of all fringe's crackpot assertions, this is the only one that actually has some evidence behind it. Does it make anything else he is asserting less woo? Nope. Even a crackpot can't be wrong all of the time (oooh I just made myself giggle).

I fail to see what the significance is as just about any explanation, including multiple sensitive systems experiencing identical mechanical failures, is more likely than ETs.


do you have any numbers? :)

Dywyddyr


No there isn't.

So eyewitness doesn't count as evidence?
Why?

jan

So eyewitness doesn't count as evidence?

jan


Several studies have been conducted on human memory and on subjects’ propensity to remember erroneously events and details that did not occur.

http://agora.stanford.edu/sjls/Issue%20One/fisher&tversky.htm

Dywyddyr
So eyewitness doesn't count as evidence?
Why?
jan
Oh Jan doesn't read:



well there is evidence that aircraft are flying around doing breakneck maneuvers being tracked on radar.
No there isn't.
There isn't any radar evidence. :rolleyes:

(In addition to Chimpkin's link on eyewitness "reliability" - something that is notoriously fallible).

Oh Jan doesn't read:

There isn't any radar evidence. :rolleyes:

(In addition to Chimpkin's link on eyewitness "reliability" - something that is notoriously fallible).


Let's just say I assumed your position of ufo's would be skeptical. :rolleyes:

Also eywitness reliability can be accurate.


jan.

http://agora.stanford.edu/sjls/Issue%20One/fisher&tversky.htm

Do you think every single eyewitness account of ufo's mistaken.
I'd like an answer from you, not from any talk or discussion.

jan.

Let's just say I assumed your position of ufo's would be skeptical.Which has what to do the point?
It depends what you mean by "sceptical". I've seen two (one of which was later explained completely).


Also eywitness reliability can be accurate.
Can be, but that's also beside the point.

Dywyddyr,



It depends what you mean by "sceptical". I've seen two (one of which was later explained completely).

So what?


Can be, but that's also beside the point.


What point?


jan.

So what?
Simply a reply to your "Let's just say I assumed your position of ufo's would be skeptical." And you still haven't explained exactly what you mean by "sceptical".


What point?
That eyewitness testimony is generally unreliable. To show that it is reliable (in those rare cases when it turns out to be so) it requires corroboration. :rolleyes:

Simply a reply to your "Let's just say I assumed your position of ufo's would be skeptical." And you still haven't explained exactly what you mean by "sceptical".


That eyewitness testimony is generally unreliable. To show that it is reliable (in those rare cases when it turns out to be so) it requires corroboration. :rolleyes:


I assume you are as skeptical about ufo's as you are about God.
If you're not, my bad.

My point is that there are lots of eye witness testimonies, some from what is regarded as credible (though I don't buy into that).
There is no way we can conclude ufo's don't exist, but there are reasons to believe it.

What exactly do you mean by corroberation?

jan.

@Jan --

I'm not skeptical about UFOs at all, in fact I know they exist. It's just that most of them get identified along the line and those that don't are not adequately explained by shouting "it was aliens!" In fact that raises more questions than it answers.

With regards to eyewitness testimony, it's only useful(even in court) to back up other evidence. Eyewitness testimony alone isn't enough to get a conviction on anything(anymore, thankfully this isn't the Inquisition anymore). Besides, we have a plethora of physical evidence that human memory is altered almost immediately upon formation and that alteration continues to occur as time passes. Add to that the fact that our brains have also been shown to invent memories that plain didn't happen and the fact that humans are, even in large numbers, susceptible to delusion and hallucination and eyewitness testimony appears to be more and more and more unreliable.

Case in point, there was a town of some seventy thousand people in Peru(or was it Brazil...I can't remember at the moment but that's irrelevant) where they all saw the sun fall out of the sky and crash into their town square. Now, we know that this didn't really happen even though they all saw it and their accounts match in detail(first of all, it would have destroyed the planet). So that leaves one of two options, that there was a supernatural phenomenon(which was visible only by those in that town and thus was completely local) or they had a mass hallucination. The latter is far more likely than the former.

I assume you are as skeptical about ufo's as you are about God.
If you're not, my bad.
Assumptions again...


My point is that there are lots of eye witness testimonies, some from what is regarded as credible (though I don't buy into that).
There is no way we can conclude ufo's don't exist, but there are reasons to believe it.
UFO's (actually the preferred term is UAP = Unidentified Aerial Phenomena) undoubtedly exist. Though whether they are are craft or not is debatable. They are simply unidentified.


What exactly do you mean by corroberation?
Ever thought of using a dictionary? An eye witness account, on its own, is not worth much. You can't tell if the witness is reporting accurately (reliably) UNLESS there is some other method of checking his/ her story. I would have thought that was obvious even to you.
You can't tell if the report is "reliable" based simply on who the person is that's giving it.

I assume you are as skeptical about ufo's as you are about God.
If you're not, my bad.

My point is that there are lots of eye witness testimonies, some from what is regarded as credible (though I don't buy into that).
There is no way we can conclude ufo's don't exist, but there are reasons to believe it.

What exactly do you mean by corroberation?

jan.

What is a UFO? Is it possible to believe in and see a UFO and not believe in alien spacecraft? Also, it's not possible to be skeptical about something that doesn't exist (that would be God).

@KilljoyKlown --

Yes, a UFO is merely an unidentified flying object, there's nothing that says a UFO has to be an alien by default. Abduction enthusiasts and those wacky Illuminati/Reptilian/Greys conspiracy theorists tend use the two terms interchangeably though they don't mean the same thing. This, of course, leads to a lot of confusion on the subject.

Anybody looking for a good book on the matter should read Carl Sagan's Demon Haunted World. Like everything Sagan touched, it's wonderful.

There isn't any radar evidence. :rolleyes:


in which incident?

Go back and read the relevant posts.

i see

/chuckle


I'm not skeptical about UFOs at all, in fact I know they exist.


ahh
do you refer to any particular incidents? which ones?


I fail to see what the significance is as just about any explanation, including multiple sensitive systems experiencing identical mechanical failures, is more likely than ETs.


again... how did you figure this out?

@Gustav --

Read my posts. I explain things fairly thoroughly in there. System failure, even in multiple systems, is still more parsimonious than any explanation involving ETs.

so it is occam you invoke rather than some probability equation or some statistical "likelihood"?

as for explaining..... do you deal in specifics? i just see run of the mill debunkery there. care to elaborate on.......


I'm not skeptical about UFOs at all, in fact I know they exist.


... that? what are you referring to?

Huh?
You have yet to show "it" has happpened here.


It's not only possible I have been present when similar things were done. Hard luck.

soo then you believe in god.? either god created us or we evolved since u dont think we evolved as shown above then u believe in god?

well thats just an eye witness account I cant accept that as evidence.. so your example is meaningless in this case

See my reply to KilljoyKlown.

soo then you believe in god.? either god created us or we evolved since u dont think we evolved as shown above then u believe in god?
Oh boy. Have you read ANY of my posts?
No, I do not believe in god. And evolution doesn't require "belief", it's a fact.


well thats just an eye witness account I cant accept that as evidence.. so your example is meaningless in this case
Yup, selectivism.
Have you seen the statistics on eye witness reliability?

See my reply to KilljoyKlown.


ok...


@KilljoyKlown --

Yes, a UFO is merely an unidentified flying object, there's nothing that says a UFO has to be an alien by default. Abduction enthusiasts and those wacky Illuminati/Reptilian/Greys conspiracy theorists tend use the two terms interchangeably though they don't mean the same thing. This, of course, leads to a lot of confusion on the subject.

Anybody looking for a good book on the matter should read Carl Sagan's Demon Haunted World. Like everything Sagan touched, it's wonderful.


... i see the standard rant and some book club stuff

/mystified

the question remains...


I'm not skeptical about UFOs at all, in fact I know they exist.


what comes to mind? anything in particular?


There isn't any radar evidence. :rolleyes:


Go back and read the relevant posts.


you refer to the 1956 lakenheath incident? :)

you refer to the 1956 lakenheath incident? :)
Read my exact words about "radar evidence". It applies not just to the Lakenheath incident.

Read my exact words about "radar evidence". It applies not just to the Lakenheath incident.


since it is only lakenheath that is referenced in this thread and you hold that your statement applies to it......


Um, no.
His claim is that there are aircraft tracked on radar doing these things.
Admittedly there are radar returns that indicate "something" appears to be doing these manoeuvres but we cannot tell if they are craft at all. Or even if it is a "continuously existing phenomenon". In other words a radar sweeps the sky. "Something is at position X on one sweep, and something (possibly something else altogether) is at position Y on the next.
There is no evidence that what is at position X at time 1 is is actually the same thing that is at position Y at time 2.
Bear in mind that radar is capable of tracking many things, not all of which are "material"...


you assert there are "radar returns"


There isn't any radar evidence. :rolleyes:


you assert there are not

/confused

since it is only lakenheath that is referenced in this thread and you hold that your statement applies to it......
I thought you could read better than that Gus:

It applies not just to the Lakenheath incident.


you assert there are "radar returns"
you assert there are not
Nope, reread.
There may well be radar returns: but it isn't necessarily a single object tracked through the atmosphere at over time. It could be multiple objects at different locations and different times, the sweep of the radar (and human perception) would "fit" the returns as a continuous track. Hell, in some cases you can get a return from air currents. (I was present at an RAeS [Royal Aeronautical Society] lecture a couple of decades ago when one RAF radar expert stated that getting a return from the wake of a (very) fast aircraft was possible under the right circumstances).

Unidentified Flying Objects, or UFOs, are spotted all the time, but they're almost always identified later. Accepting the existence of UFOs is as easy as looking at a plane and not being able to identify it. It's a UFO, you haven't identified it, but there's nothing mysterious about that. Also, one man's UFO is another man's identified flying object, just because one doesn't know what it is doesn't mean that nobody does. I fail to see what's so hard to grasp about this.

What I don't accept is the claims that UFOs are really aliens visiting our planet. Not only has every such claim collapsed like a flan in a cupboard when investigated, but the entire concept is self-refuting. You're saying that you see a flying object and didn't know what it is(thus being a UFO) but then positing that you do know what it is, it was aliens, thus meaning that it isn't a UFO, you know what it is. Do you see the contradiction there? It's just like those people who say that an event can't be explained so they can explain that it was supernatural(a ghost or some bollocks).


what comes to mind? anything in particular?

The particulars are irrelevant. The generals are more than enough to establish my contention. That there are flying objects and that some are unidentified, this is fact. It in no way implies ETs or anything of the sort.

I thought you could read better than that Gus:


umm


It applies not just to the Lakenheath incident


you are referencing lakenheath
you are also referencing other incidents

what should i do here? guess at what other incidents you refer to?
why would i not focus on the named incident?


There may well be radar returns: but it isn't necessarily a single object tracked through the atmosphere at over time.


and? there is some particular significance that there could be more than one object tracked? that aids in what? identification?



The particulars are irrelevant.


i noticed
blather on then

what should i do here? guess at what other incidents you refer to?
Any incident using "radar evidence". The flaws apply throughout (except for certain circumstances, ones which, to my recollection, haven't happened anyway).


and? there is some particular significance that there could be more than one object tracked? that aids in what? identification?
If it was more than one object then the "track" as perceived wasn't the track of a single object moving at high speed and pulling highly unusual manoeuvres: it was discreet "objects" giving the appearance of a single object doing that.
I.e. object 1 at time 1, THEN object 2 at time 2 could be taken as single object transiting from position 1 to position 2 at high speed.

oh dear
i recommend all aircraft be grounded until further notice
do you concur, dy?

oh dear
i recommend all aircraft be grounded until further notice
Except for the really spiffy-looking ones.

ahh, you joke
are our skies relatively safe with regards to the use of radar tech, dy?

i mean your concerns about the reliability of radar hardly inspires any confidence in air travel. why then are accidents few and far between? and of those, are not most, attributed to human error rather than faulty radar returns?

is it because radar functions just as it is supposed to? with a high degree of reliability and accuracy?

or is the industry perpetrating a con job on the gullible masses? and you, the intrepid whistle blower?

ahh, you joke
are our skies relatively safe with regards to the use of radar tech, dy?
Safer than they would be without.


i mean your concerns about the reliability of radar hardly inspires any confidence in air travel. why then are accidents few and far between? and of those, are not most, attributed to human error rather than faulty radar returns?
Could it be because events like Lakenheath (whatever it was/they were ) are relatively rare?


is it because radar functions just as it is supposed to? with a high degree of reliability and accuracy?
or is the industry perpetrating a con job on the gullible masses? and you, the intrepid whistle blower?
You are aware, are you not, that a large number of radars in service (i.e. air traffic control/ civilian ones) don't actually detect aircraft anyway? They rely on the aircraft itself to transmit a signal.

interesting
so primary radars have been decommissioned? and that only secondary systems are being used? and if the transponder fails we only have the pilot's visual acuity and judgment which is ......notoriously unreliable as per eyewitness studies cited in this thread...to bring us down safely?

is that correct?

@gustav --

Blather? Not one of my points is improved or refuted by bringing in the particulars, so why needlessly complicate things? My arguments have been clear, accurate, and for once they've been concise. And you're complaining about this because....

interesting
so primary radars have been decommissioned? and that only secondary systems are being used? and if the transponder fails we only have the pilot's visual acuity and judgment which is ......notoriously unreliable as per eyewitness studies cited in this thread...to bring us down safely?
is that correct?
Air Traffic Control radars tend to be transponder-reliant (secondary), not skin-painting radars, due to the power requirements.

Primary radar is still used by ATC today as a backup/complementary system to secondary radar, although its coverage and information is more limited.[2][3][4]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secondary_radar

@gustav --

Blather? Not one of my points is improved or refuted by bringing in the particulars, so why needlessly complicate things? My arguments have been clear, accurate, and for once they've been concise. And you're complaining about this because....


.....you get to remain in your pseudo skeptical comfort zone ranting about illuminati/mass hallucinations/ghosts when you conjure up some imaginary crackpots and hold them to be setting the terms of some imagined discussion

i mean seriously, were you not the only person in this thread that brought up the illuminati?

whats next, the easter bunny?

I brought the cranks up as an example of those who use the terms UFO and Flying Saucer interchangeably, nothing more. If that's what you're reacting to then I suggest you work on your reading comprehension.

Could it be because events like Lakenheath (whatever it was/they were ) are relatively rare?


so? proof of et can easily rest on a single event
really dy, must you insist on a second joint address by the klingon rep and obama before you can trust your senses? ;)

must you insist on a second joint address by the klingon rep and obama before you can trust your senses?

Yes. I don't know about Dy, but I will trust virtually any theory(using the scientific definition, of course) before I trust my senses. My senses, like everyone else's, are incredibly fallible, why would I trust them?

ahh
a pathological skeptic
starving to death yet, fella?

Unlike you, it seems, I actually understand that fallibilities of the human brain and it's sense organs.

If a significant number of people agree that they have observed something that violates the consensus reality, simply ascribe it to "mass hallucination." Avoid addressing the possibility that the consensus reality might itself constitute a mass hallucination.

/snicker

so? proof of et can easily rest on a single event
I agree. But a radar track isn't that proof.


really dy, must you insist on a second joint address by the klingon rep and obama before you can trust your senses? ;)
Yup.
Like I said, I've seen two "UFOs". One when I was fairly young, the second in my thirties. That second one I chased as far as I could, not believing it was an actual "flying saucer"... (and it turned out not be: although I had to wait for the following day's newspaper to find out what it really was).

@gustav --

Snicker all you want but my way works demonstrably better than yours. My way is the same way that got us to the moon.

dy
were you a believer back then?

/curious


Yup.


i pathologically refuse to believe that ;)

were you a believer back then?
In? God? No. Never have been, really.
Flying saucers? No, but I always thought it would be really neat if they did come here.


i pathologically refuse to believe that ;)
That I don't trust my senses?
Ah, I wish I did (sometimes), but they've let me down sooo many times. And beating them with a stick doesn't improve them at all.

If the aliens are advanced enough to cross intergalactic distances in a relatively short period of time(such as a thousand years or less) then why would they not be equally advanced in the area of genetics? Why are they so hopelessly backwards in genetics that they have to use living beings as "DNA farms"? Why not just synthetically create it themselves(even we can do this, though we still need to use yeast to stitch the synthetic DNA together)? And why do they use DNA anyways(if they evolved on a different planet, under what's likely to be different environmental conditions and subject to different circumstances then they would very likely use some other form of genetic information)?

These are questions that need to be answered.

Another question would be how many life forms could be possibly studying our planet for the first time, or just recently? Also have there been intelligent life forms here all along with some sort of base set up on our planet as some suggest?

Did the aliens add on to our dna as some suggest and believe there is proof to?:shrug:

Would they survive outside of a space suit and breath our air? I've got a tone a questions would love answers to.:rolleyes:

Unfortunately nothings been offered up to give us any evidence to these questions really. All the belief in evidence pointing to possibilities only raises more questions.:confused:

I agree. But a radar track isn't that proof.


Yup.
Like I said, I've seen two "UFOs". One when I was fairly young, the second in my thirties. That second one I chased as far as I could, not believing it was an actual "flying saucer"... (and it turned out not be: although I had to wait for the following day's newspaper to find out what it really was).

what would be proof to you then dyw?

what would be proof to you then dyw?
Of what?

:shrug: who says there is any agenda than curiosty?

I know what I have witnessed in North Bend was really weird.

I've seen ufo's before but never any aliens that is I think until that day.

It was snowing out side and me and friends drove half way point to meet up with each other out in North Bend, WA. Several years back this happen during the winter time and snow was on the ground. Went back into the woods with my daughter to take a pee brake. It was dark out side especially in the woods, so I had no idea what it was ended up mooning out there.:eek:

Came back to the cars and friends, and was facing toward the woods when I saw someone in black walking toward us. Than I was not sure it was someone but something, because this figure was all black, with two large golden disc eyes, like from a space suit!. No nose or mouth could be seen, humonoid walk, over 7' in height and unusually thin with longer arms and hands than I'm used to seeing on a human.

When I pointed it out to my friends, it stepped into the woods and disappeared and we disappeared on the road in a hurry.

So I believe that this could of been a visitor. If so it made sense that they would not breath our air or live in the same environment than us. very telling!:cool:

with two large golden disc eyes, like from a space suit!
Please link to ANY reference that shows a space suit with "golden disc eyes".
Thank you.


If so it made sense that they would not breath our air or live in the same environment than us. very telling!:cool:
I wish your posts made sense.

I must say I have been reading over all your comments, theories and thoughts and I have found them very interesting, never the less the majority the comments and evidence stated beforehand dwell within the ancient astronaut or ancient aliens’ theories. Both of which have been growing in strength in the past decade due to recent discoveries and excavations of new information and relics that define mainstream archeology or history. There may be some validity to the argument but there are questions still left unanswered, the biggest one would be why alien beings would even come here? Mine Resources, Galactic Exploration, and Colonization all of which are possible.

dwell within the ancient astronaut or ancient aliens’ theories. Both of which have been growing in strength in the past decade
Really?
Growing? Or simply a resurgence?


due to recent discoveries and excavations of new information and relics that define mainstream archeology or history.
Please list some of these "recent discoveries".


There may be some validity to the argument
How so?


but there are questions still left unanswered, the biggest one would be why alien beings would even come here? Mine Resources, Galactic Exploration, and Colonization all of which are possible.
Please work through those "options" for us...

The theory has existed since the 60’s but has resurged back into the mainstream with the publishing of the “Chariots of the Gods” which was written by Erich von Däniken in 1968. The majority of the evidence that is cited in his book are more anecdotal interpretations of archeological discovers, the Nazca Lines, certain religious text mostly early Judo-Christian accounts from the old testament. The recent discoveries have been sites in the Old world(Europe-Middle East-Africa and Asia) Certain sites have or have shown radioactive levels equal vent to nuclear weapons. Along with
The Nazca Lines
Etched into a high plateau in Peru’s Nazca Desert, a series of ancient designs stretching more than 50 miles has baffled archaeologists for decades. Along with simple lines and geometric shapes, they include drawings of animals, birds and humans, some measuring more than 600 feet across. Because of their colossal size, the figures can only be appreciated from way up in the air—and there is no evidence that the Nazca people, who inhabited the area between 300 B.C. and 800 A.D., invented flying machines. According to ancient alien theorists, the figures were used to guide spaceships as they came in for a landing, and the lines served as runways.
Vimanas
Many Sanskrit epics, which were written in India more than two millennia ago, contain references to mythical flying machines called vimanas. Pointing to similarities between descriptions of vimanas and reports by people who claim to have seen UFOs, ancient alien theorists have suggested that astronauts from other planets visited India during ancient times.
The Moai of Easter Island
The Polynesian island of Easter Island is famous for its “maoi”: the 887 giant human figures with enormous heads that guard its coastline. Roughly 500 years old, these monolithic statues stand 13 feet high and weigh 14 tons, but some are twice as tall and much heavier. How could human beings without sophisticated tools or knowledge of engineering craft and transport such incredible structures? Some ancient alien theorists believe it is the work of visiting extraterrestrials who left their mark on the island.
Puma Punku
Located in the Bolivian highlands, Puma Punku is a field of stone ruins scattered with giant, finely carved blocks. Such precise workmanship on a massive scale would have been nearly impossible without modern tools and machines, yet the ruins are more than 1,000 years old. Ancient alien theorists have hypothesized that extraterrestrials with advanced engineering techniques created the site or advised the people who built it.
In the Book of Ezekiel, part of the Hebrew bible, a prophet has a vision of a flying vessel accompanied by fire, smoke and a loud noise. Some ancient alien theorists have argued that the vehicle’s design closely mirrors that of a modern spaceship. Rather than a divine intervention, then, perhaps the text describes an early encounter between humans and alien astronauts. Pacal the Great ruled over the Mayan city of Palenque, in what is now southern Mexico, during the seventh century. Upon his death, he was buried inside a pyramid called the Temple of Inscriptions. The intricately carved lid of his sarcophagus has become a classic work of Mayan art—and an oft-cited piece of evidence for ancient alien theorists. In their view, Pacal is pictured in a spaceship during takeoff, with his hand on a control panel, his foot on a pedal and an oxygen tube in his mouth.

The theory has existed since the 60’s but has resurged back into the mainstream with the publishing of the “Chariots of the Gods” which was written by Erich von Däniken in 1968.
Let me get this straight. The theory was around in the sixties and has hit a resurgence with a book published in the '60s? :rolleyes:
That book was the reason the "theory" was popular.


The majority of the evidence that is cited in his book are more anecdotal interpretations of archeological discovers, the Nazca Lines, certain religious text mostly early Judo-Christian accounts from the old testament.
The majority of the "evidence" in that book was either misinterpretation or outright fabrication.


The recent discoveries have been sites in the Old world(Europe-Middle East-Africa and Asia) Certain sites have or have shown radioactive levels equal vent to nuclear weapons.
Radioactive sites? Such as?


Along with The Nazca Lines
Etched into a high plateau in Peru’s Nazca Desert, a series of ancient designs stretching more than 50 miles has baffled archaeologists for decades.
Baffled? Not completely explained as yet maybe.


Along with simple lines and geometric shapes, they include drawings of animals, birds and humans, some measuring more than 600 feet across. Because of their colossal size, the figures can only be appreciated from way up in the air—and there is no evidence that the Nazca people, who inhabited the area between 300 B.C. and 800 A.D., invented flying machines. According to ancient alien theorists, the figures were used to guide spaceships as they came in for a landing, and the lines served as runways.
And you believe the ancient alien "theorists" because...?


Vimanas
Many Sanskrit epics, which were written in India more than two millennia ago, contain references to mythical flying machines called vimanas. Pointing to similarities between descriptions of vimanas and reports by people who claim to have seen UFOs, ancient alien theorists have suggested that astronauts from other planets visited India during ancient times.
Yup. And they could be interpreted many other ways, too.

As for the rest... yeah interpretation, again.

I am, however, still waiting for you to list the "recent discoveries and excavations of new information and relics" that you claimed.

von Daniken is a self-confessed liar and a fantasist.

THE DOGON TRIBE OF AFRICA

"Several specialists now claim they have found the long-sought "final evidence" of visits made to earth by ancient astronauts. The myths of the Dogon tribesmen of Mall, West Africa, contain astronomical knowledge which the native people could have neither learned by themselves nor guessed. Obviously, the researchers say, some more advanced civilization told them. These fascinating Dogon legends speak of Jupiter's four moons and Saturn's rings, which were not seen by human beings until the invention of the telescope. They speak of the star Sirius and of a pair of invisible companions. One of them circles Sirius every fifty years, the legends declare, and is made of a metal that is the heaviest thing in the universe. Astronomers have discovered that such an object (called "Sirius-B") does exist but only the most sophisticated and sensitive instruments -- unavailable, of course, to the Dogons -- can detect it."
from The Sirius Mystery, by James Oberg


THE DROPAS

"Chi Pu Tei, a professor of archaeology at Beijing University, was leading some his students on an expedition to survey a series of interlinking caves in the Himalyan mountains. According to one account, the caves may have been artificially carved, and were more like a complex system of tunnels and underground storerooms. The walls were squared and glazed, as if cut into the mountain with a source of extreme heat. Inside the caves were several ancient, but neatly arranged burial sites, and in them the skeletal remains of a strange people. The skeletons, measuring a little more than four feet tall, were frail and spindly with disproportionately large skulls."
In Jabbaren, in the Tassili mountains, Algeria, south of the Hoggar. A 6m high character with a large round decorated head. The massive body, the strange dressing, the folds around the neck and on the chest suggest some ancient time astronaut. A similar character is painted at Sfar in the Tassili, in the Cabro caves in France and in several other places. Some of them are much smaller and raise their hands towards a giant being, of non human appearance, sometimes these "round heads" being seem to hover in the air. From 6000 B.C.



The story begins when a layer of radioactive ash was found in Rajasthan, India.



It covered a three-square mile area, ten miles west of Jodhpur. The research occurred after a very high rate of birth defects and cancer was discovered in the area.



The levels of radiation registered so high on investigators’ gauges that the Indian government cordoned off the region. Scientists then apparently unearthed an ancient city where they found evidence of an atomic blast dating back thousands of years: from 8,000 to 12,000 years.



The blast was said to have destroyed most of the buildings and probably a half-million people.


Archeologist Francis Taylor stated that etchings in some nearby temples he translated suggested that they prayed to be spared from the great light that was coming to lay ruin to the city.

“It’s so mind-boggling to imagine that some civilization had nuclear technology before we did. The radioactive ash adds credibility to the ancient Indian records that describe atomic warfare.”

When excavations of Harappa and Mohenjo-Daro reached the street level, they discovered skeletons scattered about the cities, many holding hands and sprawling in the streets as if some instant, horrible doom had taken place.



People were just lying, unburied, in the streets of the city. And these skeletons are thousands of years old, even by traditional archaeological standards.



What could cause such a thing? Why did the bodies not decay or get eaten by wild animals?



Furthermore, there is no apparent cause of a physically violent death.



A. Gorbovsky, in Riddles of Ancient History, reported the discovery of at least one human skeleton in this area with a level of radioactivity approximately 50 times greater than it should have been due to natural radiation.



Furthermore, thousands of fused lumps, christened “black stones”, have been found at Mohenjo-Daro. These appear to be fragments of clay vessels that melted together in extreme heat.


Another curious sign of an ancient nuclear war in India is a giant crater near Bombay. The nearly circular 2,154-metre-diameter Lonar crater (left image), located 400 kilometers northeast of Bombay and aged at less than 50,000 years old, could be related to nuclear warfare of antiquity.



No trace of any meteoric material, etc., has been found at the site or in the vicinity, and this is the world’s only known “impact” crater in basalt. Indications of great shock (from a pressure exceeding 600,000 atmospheres) and intense, abrupt heat (indicated by basalt glass spherules) can be ascertained from the site.

With the apparent discovery of this radiated area, parallels were quick drawn to the Mahabharata, the Indian epic.



It reads:

... (it was) a single projectile
Charged with all the power of the Universe.
An incandescent column of smoke and flame
As bright as the thousand suns
Rose in all its splendor...

...it was an unknown weapon,
An iron thunderbolt,
A gigantic messenger of death,
Which reduced to ashes
The entire race of the Vrishnis and the Andhakas.

...The corpses were so burned
As to be unrecognizable.
The hair and nails fell out;
Pottery broke without apparent cause,
And the birds turned white.

After a few hours
All foodstuffs were infected...
....to escape from this fire
The soldiers threw themselves in streams
To wash themselves and their equipment.

Whereas the story of the Mahabharata is indirect evidence, the other discoveries in India pose serious problems for those trying to deny the possibility that this might indeed be evidence of ancient atomic warfare.



Whereas believing in the existence of Atlantis or a highly advanced civilization that might not have left any trace is one thing, to suggest that our ancestors might have wiped themselves out along the same lines we almost did, but only fifty years ago, is a major paradigm shift.



Some skeptics thus stated:

“I am sick and tired of hearing this, and I cannot find any debunks of this either. Anyone who can debunk this, or is this really true?”

That is indeed the question… and an important one. The stakes are high, as one would expect when facing with the best evidence.

I do not belive in the theroy but find it interesting...prehapes alien beings were the cause for ancient Homo Sapiens to create religons to worhship god-like creatures from the sky. the predominate theory of why they came to earth was to mine gold. Gold is excellent insullator from radiation( often magnified during space travel) and is an excellent conductor of electrial signals or communications( we use gold in all of our electronics)

THE DOGON TRIBE OF AFRICA
Oops, nice try. This dates back to the '50s (i.e. not recent). And is a myth. One that has been debunked.


THE DROPAS
Again, this dates back to the 60s. And is another fabrication.


In Jabbaren, in the Tassili mountains, Algeria, south of the Hoggar.
'50s. And again this is interpretation.


The story begins when a layer of radioactive ash was found in Rajasthan, India.
This is a complete fabrication.


Archeologist Francis Taylor stated that etchings in some nearby temples he translated suggested that they prayed to be spared from the great light that was coming to lay ruin to the city.
As is, apparently "archaeologist Francis Taylor".


When excavations of Harappa and Mohenjo-Daro reached the street level, they discovered skeletons scattered about the cities, many holding hands and sprawling in the streets as if some instant, horrible doom had taken place.
Which shows... what exactly?


What could cause such a thing? Why did the bodies not decay or get eaten by wild animals?
Bodies? Not decay? You DO know what a skeleton is, don't you?

Nine years of extensive excavations at Mohenjo-Daro ( which seems to have been rapidly abandoned) have yielded a total of some 37 skeletons
http://www.archaeologyonline.net/artifacts/harappa-mohenjodaro.html


Furthermore, there is no apparent cause of a physically violent death.
Source please.


A. Khabarovsk, in Riddles of Ancient History, reported the discovery of at least one human skeleton in this area with a level of radioactivity approximately 50 times greater than it should have been due to natural radiation.
1966. And unsubstantiated. (Interestingly I can also find no evidence that the book itself exists, or the author).


Furthermore, thousands of fused lumps, christened “black stones”, have been found at Mohenjo-Daro. These appear to be fragments of clay vessels that melted together in extreme heat.
Hmm, I wonder why these aren't mentioned in the archaeological report (http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=8e0UAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA122&lpg=PA122&dq=Mohenjo-Daro+black+stones&source=bl&ots=jVzzzNorQJ&sig=w8x-tgIoKNmTW-labM9Y8llCtNM&hl=en&ei=gAR-Tq77O6qs0QXPi_3UDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CDUQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=black%20stone&f=false).


Another curious sign of an ancient nuclear war in India is a giant crater near Bombay. The nearly circular 2,154-metre-diameter Lonar crater (left image), located 400 kilometers northeast of Bombay and aged at less than 50,000 years old, could be related to nuclear warfare of antiquity.
It could also be related to a meteor that hit during the Pleistocene (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lonar_crater_lake). :rolleyes:


No trace of any meteoric material, etc., has been found at the site or in the vicinity, and this is the world’s only known “impact” crater in basalt. Indications of great shock (from a pressure exceeding 600,000 atmospheres) and intense, abrupt heat (indicated by basalt glass spherules) can be ascertained from the site.
Yeah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lonar_crater_lake#Geological_origin)?


With the apparent discovery of this radiated area, parallels were quick drawn to the Mahabharata, the Indian epic.
What "radiated area"?


Whereas the story of the Mahabharata is indirect evidence, the other discoveries in India pose serious problems for those trying to deny the possibility that this might indeed be evidence of ancient atomic warfare.
You mean apart from the lack of radiation, the lack of reliable sources, the lack of technology available at the time etc?


Whereas believing in the existence of Atlantis or a highly advanced civilization that might not have left any trace is one thing, to suggest that our ancestors might have wiped themselves out along the same lines we almost did, but only fifty years ago, is a major paradigm shift.
Nope. They're both bullshit claims.


That is indeed the question… and an important one. The stakes are high, as one would expect when facing with the best evidence.
If the "best evidence" is fabrication, misinterpretation and outright lies how high do you think the stakes are?

the predominate theory of why they came to earth was to mine gold.
Ah right.
A civilisation capable of traversing the stars is incapable of finding gold any closer than Earth or manufacturing it. Got you. :rolleyes:

It sounds very eccentric i know, but that is what the anicent alien theorist belive in. who knows maybe there planet's resources were dried up or that this planets unique atmosphere and geological activity made gold mining more productive than on other planets they may have come across. Your not really trying to get me, i'm just stating what THEY belive or what THEY think is the reason for alien beings to even consider this rock a place to stop.

Listen i understand the skeptisim, to honest i don't belive in it myself.However the evidence that has been stated is just that EVIDENCE not Proof or Dis-Proof just data that has been collected. Is it up to interpretaion..yes, is some of the rational behind it flawed..probably but it's still worth investigation. All that i have done is state the current and best evidence that can be found. i not out to disprove or to prove anyone's thoughts or opinions i'm simply trying to bring in new material for disscusion.

However the evidence that has been stated is just that EVIDENCE
Um, no it's not.
How can lies and fabrications be evidence?


but it's still worth investigation.
Why?


All that i have done is state the current and best evidence that can be found.
You haven't presented any evidence, merely fabricated claims and misinterpretation.


i not out to disprove or to prove anyone's thoughts or opinions i'm
simply trying to bring in new material for disscusion.
Yeah, on that subject I'm STILL waiting for you to show us the "recent discoveries and excavations of new information and relics" that you claimed existed.
Everything so far presented is ~50 years old or more.

Still skeptical about the existence of Ancient Aliens and their past influence on
Earth? One of the most amazing pieces of evidence that has ever been
discovered is the Piri Reis Map which clearly depicts the South American
Coastline and part of what looks very much like the coast of Queen Maud
Land which is a section of Antarctica.

The strange thing was that the coast of Queen Maud Land had been covered
with a thick sheet of ice for many centuries and its shape was only known to
modern mapmakers through the use of modern seismographic equipment.

Most serious professional geographers reject a theory that has raised many
eyebrows throughout history; that an advance world-wide civilization
dismissed until Professor Charles H. Hapgood, of Keene State College at
the Universityof New Hampshire became interested in Mallery's unorthodox
theory about an advance civilization and wrote a book called Maps of the
Ancient Sea Kings. The book suggests that at one time in the ancient past
there was a world-wide civilization with advanced technology. Though this
civilization was destroyed, some of its knowledge survived to wind up in the
maps. This has been one of the leading arguments for the existence of
Atlantis and other mythical civilizations that were once thought to exist in
our ancient past.

However, a more radical and most intriguing theory was proposed by best
selling author Eric Von Daniken. He suggests that these maps could have
only been drawn with the aid of extra-terrestrials and that they would have
the technology to see past the ice sheets of Antarctica and have the
navigational ability to map out the earth's topography with such precision.
this map is the story behind it and the "hear say" that this map was created by older maps. So in summary these are the
theories derived form this map:

- Atlantians did exist and they were an advance civilization that existed throughout the world
- Aliens truly do exist and helped past civilizations create maps for navigation
- Older known civilizations were a lot more advance than we expected
-
Home

ANCIENT ALIENS | PIRIS REIS MAP OF 1513

We have been mystified, bewildered and intrigued with the thought of life
beyond our planet, yet too often, we oversee the clear evidence of Ancient
Aliens that our ancestors left us. From Egyptian accounts of fire balls in the
skies, to Alexander the Great and his eye witness account of a UFO that
destroyed the wall of the city he was besieging, the ancient proof that article,
we take you into the realm of ancient cave paintings and the signs of article,
we take you into the realm of ancient cave paintings and the signs of Ancient
Aliens that ancient civilizations wanted us to know about. Ancient Aliens that
ancient civilizations wanted us to know about.


Scientists scoff at any explanation involving extraterrestrials, but their theories
are no less far-fetched. The Anasazi were not the only ancient civilization to
disappear without a trace, they are joined in infamy with the Maya,
North Africa

Ancient Cave Art
6000 B.C.
Kimberley, Australia

Ancient Cave Drawing
5000 B.C.
Kimberley, Australia

Ancient Cave Drawing
5000 B.C.
Australia

ANCIENT ALIENS | ALIEN CAVE PAINTINGS

ANCIENT ALIENS OUR ANCESTORS
CAVE PAINTINGS
some Egyptians, the fabled Atlantians, and the builders of Easter Island.
Could ancient aliens have abducted an entire population or could the
Anasazians have been aliens themselves, living on the land for generations
before returning to their home world? Their advanced society proves that
they were vastly different from any other inhabitants of the planet, and their
mysterious exodus may be evidence that they didn't abandon their homes,
but rather returned to them.

Obviously everything that is seen remains a speculation. Questions like,
"why would aliens draw on rocks, and why would they leave their home
planet to temporarily live on earth? It seems like all we can do is examine
these paintings and draw our own personal conclusions as to what they
are. As far as we are concerned, no P.H.D. can make a better guess as to
what these drawings are really all about.

Ah yes.
ANOTHER "not recent" example.
Also yet another falsification.

1) Hapgood was a crank.
2) von Daniken is a crank and a liar.
3) if you persist in visiting sites like ANCIENT ALIENS without ALSO checking the validity of their claims how do expect to be taken seriously?

Piri Reis map explained (http://www.maproomblog.com/2007/02/the_piri_reis_map_of_1513.php).

Effectively all you've done so far is show us that you haven't a clue as to what you're talking about.

:blbl:Alright, i'll concede you got me..however why don't you bring in "Real" or " Recent "evidence of the Ancient Astronauts? or are you not up to the challenge? Perhapes the only evidence for it is pseuoarcheology. prove me wrong.

:wave:Alright, i'll concede you got me..however why don't you bring in "Real" or " Recent "evidence of the Ancient Astronauts? or are you not up to the challenge? Perhapes the only evidence for it is pseuoarcheology. prove me wrong.

Alright, i'll concede you got me..however why don't you bring in "Real" or " Recent "evidence of the Ancient Astronauts?
Excuse me? YOU happen to be the one that claimed there is "recent evidence". I've asked you to present it. More than once. And as far as I'm aware there is no "real evidence" for them.


or are you not up to the challenge? Perhapes the only evidence for it is pseuoarcheology. prove me wrong.
This, given that it was your claim, (that recent evidence exists) is nonsense.

Yes, but the information that i brought in do not meet YOUR standards. Nor did it even remotley satifise YOUR though process. Everyone has a different interpretation of evidence that is presented, for you it's that the Anicent Aliens theory is bull, and that the people who research it are crack pots.( Sounds very similar to the very fisrt early scientist who didn't have the concrete scientific method to start with while trying to explain the natural world without religious explanations) for me it's a topic of debate,and for others it could be anything. We got off on the wrong foot and i do apologize for any indescritions that i may have caused you.

Yes, but the information that i brought in do not meet YOUR standards. Nor did it even remotley satifise YOUR though process.
One more time: what information?
What you posted turned out to be (for the most part) false. I.e. it doesn't meet anyone's standards. And it also wasn't (as you claimed) recent.


Everyone has a different interpretation of evidence that is presented, for you it's that the Anicent Aliens theory is bull, and that the people who research it are crack pots.( Sounds very similar to the very fisrt early scientist who didn't have the concrete scientific method to start with while trying to explain the natural world without religious explanations) for me it's a topic of debate,and for others it could be anything. We got off on the wrong foot and i do apologize for any indescritions that i may have caused you.
Present something other than fabrication. Please.

:shrug:Damn, even when i'm trying to reconclie with you, your still at my throat ripping and tearing until i die. Do you want me to get of the forums all together by metaphorically silting my own throat or should i just read the forums and not say a goddamn word?

:shrug:Damn, even when i'm trying to reconclie with you, your still at my throat ripping and tearing until i die.
I have no objection to reconciliation but I fail to see how claiming lies and fabrications are information helps do this. :shrug:


Do you want me to get of the forums all together by metaphorically silting my own throat or should i just read the forums and not say a goddamn word?
Neither.
If you're going to post claims then simply check to see whether they're valid claims or not. (Oh, and don't make up new ones [recent discoveries etc]).
All of what you've posted is old, passé and has been shown to be incorrect numerous times: simply re-posting it lends you zero credibility.

I'd be extremely interested in new "information" (or even new claims), this is something I've been reading about since von Daniken's original book. It's no more convincing now than it was then (in fact it's less convincing since at that time there was no internet to check his sources so easily).

I have no objection to reconciliation but I fail to see how claiming lies and fabrications are information helps do this. :shrug:


Neither.
If you're going to post claims then simply check to see whether they're valid claims or not. (Oh, and don't make up new ones [recent discoveries etc]).
All of what you've posted is old, passé and has been shown to be incorrect numerous times: simply re-posting it lends you zero credibility.

I'd be extremely interested in new "information" (or even new claims), this is something I've been reading about since von Daniken's original book. It's no more convincing now than it was then (in fact it's less convincing since at that time there was no internet to check his sources so easily).


Ah right.
A civilisation capable of traversing the stars is incapable of finding gold any closer than Earth or manufacturing it. Got you. :rolleyes:

the way it is the way it is guy

to speculate on why here , by them is irrelevent , the fact is , is that they did do just that

the fact is , is that they did do just that
Fact?
I see you're unaware of what a fact is.

I love alien woo. So many problems that they're all completely unaware of, you never run out of ammunition.

Zecharia Sitchin weaves the most "plausible" modern folk tale of Ancient Alien myth. It was he that suggested the 12th planet (aliens) required gold for their atmosphere. He does this by being one of the first to "translate" the Sumerian tablets.

He was one of very few people claiming to be able to do it and no one refuted him (other than lip service). Finally only in recent years have some other scholars shed light on where his translations are "stretched and erroneous". Finally dispelling a very elaborate modern myth.

I love alien woo. So many problems that they're all completely unaware of, you never run out of ammunition.

It might not make sense, but I get no fun out of being aggressive towards people. So we are all different.

I agree. But a radar track isn't that proof.


Yup.
Like I said, I've seen two "UFOs". One when I was fairly young, the second in my thirties. That second one I chased as far as I could, not believing it was an actual "flying saucer"... (and it turned out not be: although I had to wait for the following day's newspaper to find out what it really was).

what was it?

I love alien woo. So many problems that they're all completely unaware of, you never run out of ammunition.

like what?

The meteor hitting the moon data may be found on page 106 of Don
Wilson's 1979 book "Secrets of Our Spaceship Moon." This was my source
for my book "Alien Agenda." However you also can find a NASA news
release to this event at
http://www.nasa.gov/centers/johnson/news/releases/1972_1974/ under May
13, 1972 with the heading " LARGE METEORITE

I wonder if I'll still be around when an alien decides to visit our realm. Sometimes I too think we are involved in some sort of alien experiment and they're just analyzing our behaviors. I mean if aliens do exist and if they have been around for some time, why is it they come here so secretly. Why not make an obvious landing somewhere for us to see them. If they have the technology to come to earth from a different universe, I'm sure they can defend themselves from the violence that may arise when they go public.

I wonder if I'll still be around when an alien decides to visit our realm. Sometimes I too think we are involved in some sort of alien experiment and they're just analyzing our behaviors. I mean if aliens do exist and if they have been around for some time, why is it they come here so secretly. Why not make an obvious landing somewhere for us to see them. If they have the technology to come to earth from a different universe, I'm sure they can defend themselves from the violence that may arise when they go public.I would think they don't want to be psychologically contaminated. I mean, their alleged manner of conduct so far points to the ten-foot-pole.

I wonder if I'll still be around when an alien decides to visit our realm. Sometimes I too think we are involved in some sort of alien experiment and they're just analyzing our behaviors. I mean if aliens do exist and if they have been around for some time, why is it they come here so secretly. Why not make an obvious landing somewhere for us to see them. If they have the technology to come to earth from a different universe, I'm sure they can defend themselves from the violence that may arise when they go public.

Aliens are pesky little buggers, always causing trouble whether they exist or not. Damned if I'm ever going to trust an alien.:D

@whynot --


like what?

Well how about the entropy problem associated with FTL travel. Such travel would, in the first, take an almost infinite source of energy(if not truly infinite) and that's only the start of their problems because that much energy doing that much work is going to create a lot of heat as there's no perfect energy transfer and some energy is always lost to heat. Some of infinite is still infinite, which means an infinite amount of heat. Even putting that in reality where such infinities are impossible, it would still be an extraordinarily large amount of heat.

Even if the aliens could survive the acceleration to LS and beyond, they'd be cooked through before they got here and their ship would melt as well. That seems to be a huge problem, and one that never gets old.

I posted this on another forum but aren't getting anything results for it. I see this thread is pretty active so I hope one of yall can answer this. I recently found out about Annuanki and Nibiru and hear over 100 stories about them and what they might be, what they might look like, and all sorta information. But I would like to read on what you guys think of Annuanki and Nibiru.

Annuanki: made up word of your own. However, if you mean Anunnaki: bullshit.
Nibiru: an Akkadian word meaning "crossing point", also used in Babylonian astronomy: the highest point of the ecliptic. If you mean Sitchin's use: bullshit.

alien agenda is all about , if we could but perceive

inotherwords seeing the truth of aliens is being , not only here , now , but also thousands of yrs ago

alien agenda is all about , if we could but perceive

inotherwords seeing the truth of aliens is being , not only here , now , but also thousands of yrs ago
Truth?
Hardly...

Originally Posted by river
alien agenda is all about , if we could but perceive

inotherwords seeing the truth of aliens is being , not only here , now , but also thousands of yrs ago




Truth?
Hardly...

yes truth D

your just going to have to open up your mind enough to allow you to read about it

and there is lots to read about

yes truth D

your just going to have to open up your mind enough to allow you to read about it

and there is lots to read about
I've probably read more on the subject than you have.
None of it was convincing. Or even rational.

“ Originally Posted by river
yes truth D

your just going to have to open up your mind enough to allow you to read about it

and there is lots to read about


I've probably read more on the subject than you have.

I see


None of it was convincing. Or even rational.

hence why I doubt you have read much on it

hence why I doubt you have read much on it
I'm obviously less gullible than you.

I posted this on another forum but aren't getting anything results for it. I see this thread is pretty active so I hope one of yall can answer this. I recently found out about Annuanki and Nibiru and hear over 100 stories about them and what they might be, what they might look like, and all sorta information. But I would like to read on what you guys think of Annuanki and Nibiru.

Not sure about Annuanki - I think it is those buddhist temple ruins in Thialand. Nibiru is the planet that was blockaded in Star Wars I. I didn't like the 1 - 3 episodes very much.

Hope this helps!:)

PS. I think the alien agenda is centered on the war against Christmas! It looks to me like there is a direct correlation between the number of UFO sitings and the occurrance of the phrase "Happy Holidays". Think about it...