here's a message i got...

what is the holy grail? the cup used in communion ritual (last supper).

what is a cup? a vessel.

what did it contain? wine symbolic of the blood of christ.

what is a body? a vessel.

for what? our blood.

what is the body of christ? the church.

what is the church? his bride.

what is communion? a marriage ceremony.


because sin is said to be inherent, i assume it's genetic. our genes determine what we're born into. because jesus was said to be without sin, he must not have had this birth defect. his blood is said to redeem, to wash away our sin or in other words to rid us of this defect. so, the secret of the holy grail is it is representative of a time when we will be reborn through him with perfected blood in our veins which will restore our communion with god and each other.

cool huh?

We have a concept of sin because we have a collective memory of a time when we lived in paradise before Agriculture. The Middle East used to be wetter environment, better for hunting and gathering, life was relatively easy. The rains dried up and people turned to sacrifices in order to placate the Gods and make things better, and all the sacrificing made things worse, until they reasoned that their own inadequacies were the problem. It's been a guilt trip ever since then.

The church has since regressed into the magical thinking that predated it. Magic cups, and a panopoly of Gods (saints), witches, and magical amulets (relics), these are throwbacks to the religion that existed before Christianity.

Its not magic man, I'm talking about dna. There is something seriously wrong with us in a world of plenty.

There's nothing wrong with our DNA. Humanity was around for hundreds of thousands of years before our present predicament. Of course, you wouldn't learn that in the Bible. Our way of life is unprecedented on Earth. It has yet to congeal around a sustainable pattern, if it ever does. Our cultural evolution has outpaced DNA. That does make sense, since there are practical limits on how much information can be be encoded in DNA.

I know we're not the first "generation" (try laying that on a religious person) but what is going to perfect us? Our culture? People didn't turn to shit because they ran out of food. People are shitty and fat pigs at the same time. And you can have all the great food in the world and still die. I'm talking about eternal life here.

Biology. We will only eliminate the tendency to kill each other when that basic biological urge is removed. Maybe we need a drug, or maybe genetic engineering. Otherwise, eternal life will come when we are able to create artificial consciousness and live in virtual worlds.

here's a message i got...

what is the holy grail? the cup used in communion ritual (last supper).

what is a cup? a vessel.

what did it contain? wine symbolic of the blood of christ.

what is a body? a vessel.

for what? our blood.

what is the body of christ? the church.

what is the church? his bride.

what is communion? a marriage ceremony.

i didn't get the memo




because sin is said to be inherent, i assume it's genetic. no wonder i didn't understand; that memo must have been genetic?!?!?


I would trust a 5 yr old at telling the truth over 99% of your 40 yrs olds.

Why? Because they havent learned as much BS. (and how to use it)

At that age (5), very few even know a fraction of the words and ideology available, not to mention biased to a position of belief.

We born 'good' naturally and learn the crap from the 'accepted' paradigm of the culture (environment of peers/rearing)


so, the secret of the holy grail is it is representative of a time when we will be reborn through him with perfected blood in our veins which will restore our communion with god and each other.


thru knowledge

mankind comprehending what life is and how to live forever by choice

ONLY KNOWLEDGE will build the bridges

that christ guy is an arrogant prick

the blood line may or may not be proven; i say, every one of us has lineage to the time of jesus or even adam and eve; or you would not be here!

so that same 'life' since the beginning of time, is within YOUR VEINS, too!

not just mine



pretty fair post(s) spidergoat............ now just imagine how nuts it will be when US cities are without food. ouch!

Biology. We will only eliminate the tendency to kill each other when that basic biological urge is removed. Maybe we need a drug, or maybe genetic engineering. Otherwise, eternal life will come when we are able to create artificial consciousness and live in virtual worlds.

ooooops!


no such critter, tell ray he's a nut (as i already did)

your ever-lasting-life is the splash you leave; i suggest you get busy livin' or (you know how it goes)

no such critter as a "borg", never gonna be either


any bets?

i know the reason, technically; if you don't, then best not make the bet!

I'm talking long term, not in my lifetime. See "Caprica", science fiction will become science fact.

[QUOTE=Bishadi;2309880
I would trust a 5 yr old at telling the truth over 99% of your 40 yrs olds.

Why? Because they havent learned as much BS. (and how to use it)

At that age (5), very few even know a fraction of the words and ideology available, not to mention biased to a position of belief.

We born 'good' naturally and learn the crap from the 'accepted' paradigm of the culture (environment of peers/rearing)[/QUOTE]

I once asked a five year old if she ever thought about god and she answered no.

Born good? I think human beings are more complicated than being either good or bad. Have you ever seen the competing that goes on at the playground? Children grabbing at toys that do not belong to them? Pushing other little kids and making them cry? Children are innocent but that doesn't make them 'good'.

no such critter as a "borg", never gonna be either
Wrong.

i know the reason, technically; if you don't, then best not make the bet!
No you don't.

I once asked a five year old if she ever thought about god and she answered no.

what's a god?




Born good? absolutely and any deviation is from what they learned from others

go to any play ground for that example (kids are not naturally mean; they learn it from others)


I think human beings are more complicated than being either good or bad. human beings can think before they act (consciousness)

children are innocent and all 'good' naturally; everything 'bad' is learned! (lies do not exists unless taught from another)

there is no such thing as genetically 'bad" (evil, corrupt, self centered) and a way to see that is no human ever born can live from birth alone and survive

all learn from others and unless there is a medical 'difference' other than personality to reactions; we are all pretty much the same (once born conscious)

that "universal equality" is something every human being on earth should already know.

what's a god?

absolutely and any deviation is from what they learned from others

go to any play ground for that example (kids are not naturally mean; they learn it from others)

She never bothered to ask what's a god. And what evidence do you have of this inherent goodness? And if we were all inherently good then were did the first 'bad' person learn to be mean?

Kids are not inherently anything and neither are adults. Its really simplistic to break down human behavior into 'good' and 'bad'.

Hmmm. Reminds me of old Bush rhetoric.

After an exchange of PMs, I think I understad what Lori was hoping to discuss in this thread, so I've reopened it.

A I understand it, the true topic is actually communion rather than the Holy Grail. I apologize for locking it previously since it makes more sense now that Lori has PM'd me.

As I understand it, she's rationalizing the nature of the Communion ritual in catholism (with variations that exist in other, non-catholic, sects). Her description of this ritual relies on the a priori assumption that Jesus, as described in biblical mythology, not only existed but existed as a divine being.

Which is one of the things that appeared to be a moment of preaching.

But, if we look past this a priori assumption, a different rationalization of the communion ritual is likely to emerge. The definition of communion (or, to commune) describes a merging, or comming together and, in that way, there is a similarity between marriage and this cult ritual. I think, however, the ritual itself goes far and beyond symbolic communion of two or more real beings and is intended as a merging of the human body and soul with that of Jesus Christ and, if the Trinity doctrine is accepted, therefore God and the Holy Spirit/Ghost.

These, of course are symbolic mergers, since in reality such things as souls, spirits, ghosts, and deities don't appear to actually exist other than in the minds of those afflicted by the superstitions of the cults that participate in the communion ritual.

In the mind of that person, such a ritual probably provides chemical satisfactions by way of seretonin excretions and management of reuptake, endorphines, etc, giving the sensation of a "religious experience." Such biochemical reactions and experiences are well documented for anyone interested, btw.

But Lori's description of the Communion ritual, while it definitely has some merit in the symbolism employed in religious marriage, is a bit of a reach. I think that the intent of sharing the "blood of Christ" (wine) and consuming "the body" (the eucharist cracker) are merely symbolic to some, but to true believing catholics, there is an actual transsubstantiation occurring in which the wine and the cracker are transformed into the blood and flesh of Jesus after consumption. This is a pretty sick belief, in my opinion, even though actual transsubstantiation is a total delusion.

In addition, to suggest that sin is "genetic" doesn't make sense unless one can first define "sin" as something that can be expressed phenotypically (i.e. if one were to define "sin" as hodgkin's disease or brown eyes then we can say it's genetic. But the definition of sin comes from a religious rather than a rational frame of mind in the way you mean it. Therefore it doesn't work the way intended with "genetic."

Anyway, I should have reviewed this thread much sooner after it was closed, but I've been a bit busy and overlooked it. Sorry Lori -the OP initially seemed a bit nonsensical but I understand what you're wanting to discuss now after the PMs.

ok, so in addition to the OP, let's look at christ...

he was supposedly born without sin because of his divine or immaculate conception. sin is said to be inherent, in that we are born into it and it resides in our flesh. the aspects which are inherent to our flesh are determined by genetics. therefore i conclude sin is a birth defect.

it is said that we are redeemed by the blood of christ. we are cleansed of our sin by his blood. now, most religious people think that is referring to the blood that was shed on a cross, but i don't think so. i think this is symbolic of a real cleansing of our blood making it just like his...sinless.

if the wages of sin is death, then the removal of sin would result in eternal life.

sin also hindered our communion with god (as told in genesis, the fall of man). if the sin is removed, our communion with god and each other will be restored.

the logistics of this are demonstrated (to a degree) by the ritual of communion. where i take you back to the OP with these correlations...

what is the holy grail? a cup
what is a cup? a vessel
for what? christ's blood
what is a body? a vessel
for what? our blood
what is the body of christ? the church
what is the bride of christ? the church
what is communion? a marriage ceremony

i conclude that this ritual is symbolic of a time when our blood will be cleansed of sin and communion with god and each other restored, in a kingdom of perfection and eternal life.

what is the holy grail? a cup
what is a cup? a vessel
for what? christ's blood
what is a body? a vessel
for what? our blood
what is the body of christ? the church
what is the bride of christ? the church
what is communion? a marriage ceremony

i conclude that this ritual is symbolic of a time when our blood will be cleansed of sin and communion with god and each other restored, in a kingdom of perfection and eternal life.

that's all great.

but what if I don't believe:


he was supposedly born without sin because of his divine or immaculate conception.

that's all great.

but what if I don't believe:

well you don't really have to believe it to get the message here. it's a premise.

well you don't really have to believe it to get the message here. it's a premise.

The premise is built on


he was supposedly born without sin because of his divine or immaculate conception.

The premise is built on

yes...sinless blood = restored communion = perfected existence = eternal life.

yes...sinless blood = restored communion = perfected existence = eternal life.

So if I don't believe that he was born sinless, that he was just a man that people decided to worship, like Joseph Smith or David Koresh.

What then. What if he was just a man.

So if I don't believe that he was born sinless, that he was just a man that people decided to worship, like Joseph Smith or David Koresh.

What then. What if he was just a man.

then you're not getting my point, because the ritual of communion would not mean anything to you at all. i mean, what do you think communion is about?

what do religious people think the ritual of communion is about anyway?

a way to kill some time in mass? have a little snack?

then you're not getting my point, because the ritual of communion would not mean anything to you at all. i mean, what do you think communion is about?

To me it's a religious term, although it doesn't have to be.

If my friends and I were to get together on the weekend to watch a game, I wouldn't say lets have a communion on Saturday.

This,


i conclude that this ritual is symbolic of a time when our blood will be cleansed of sin and communion with god and each other restored, in a kingdom of perfection and eternal life.

That is your conclusion based on


he was supposedly born without sin because of his divine or immaculate conception

And so if I don't believe in the above then I conclude that your conclusion is just pure fantasy. Do you see where I am coming from.

To me it's a religious term, although it doesn't have to be.

If my friends and I were to get together on the weekend to watch a game, I wouldn't say lets have a communion on Saturday.

This,



That is your conclusion based on



And so if I don't believe in the above then I conclude that your conclusion is just pure fantasy. Do you see where I am coming from.

yeah, but given the premise my conclusion makes sense. even without some religious context here. there is something undeniably wrong with humans. it, whatever it is, seems to be inherent in everyone, and has been throughout our recorded history. do you think that people have a barrier to communion?

did you read my personal interpretation of communion from my blog that i posted in another thread? i think it's safe to say we are far from this ideal.

why do you think that is?

yeah, but given the premise my conclusion makes sense. even without some religious context here. there is something undeniably wrong with humans. it, whatever it is, seems to be inherent in everyone, and has been throughout our recorded history

Ok so lets say you are correct about something being wrong with people, from birth. Which I don't agree with by the way.

Why make the leap to a sinless birth for this one man. What if he was just a man.

What if your premise is wrong. The rest of it falls apart.

did you read my personal interpretation of communion from my blog that i posted in another thread? i think it's safe to say we are far from this ideal

Which thread ?

Which thread ?

i found it...here's a copy...

this is something i wrote in my blog a while ago. just some personal feelings that i kind of went on about for a minute, and then mid-writing it occurred to me that's what it seemed like i was talking about. but this is a personal interpretation...

sunday thoughts...

i refer to myself as a nun, and i mean it. but what i really mean is, that i'm waiting for someone very special. if i were asked who that is, i could say someone who i trust...who i admire...who is strong...enough to be honest...but that's not true. i am really waiting for, who it is that was meant to be...my fate...my soulmate...my destiny. if i were asked what i would want to do with my life, i would say i want to create, feed, foster, nuture, encourage, protect, and defend...to love, develop, grow, learn, teach, and share everything i am and do, with someone who, would share everything they are and do, with me. and to appreciate each other with an unconditional acceptance that never wanes, because it's what we both desire for ourselves and each other, more than anything. a desire to achieve, complete and unbridled intimacy, through complete and uncompromised honesty, which to me, sounds like communion. it's the perfect balance that sustains and perfects life by giving it purpose and meaning. without it, everything i do, is either too important, or not important at all, like if there's nothing resting on the other side of my scale.

________________

now, i started writing that with a mate in mind, but i realize that you can definitely apply that to relationships with all human beings, and to god. it's what god has shown me through the way he interacts with me, and the way i feel about him.

this is something else i wrote that could be relevant as well...

thinking of you...

you can have the greatest achievements
the most disappointing failures
the most paralyzing fear
the most intense joy
the most profound sorrow
and none of it means anything
without someone to share it with

Idealism worth striving for.


you can have the greatest achievements
the most disappointing failures
the most paralyzing fear
the most intense joy
the most profound sorrow
and none of it means anything
without someone to share it with

For the most part, yes. But I can think of one way. I have been places and done things either by myself or with a friend and we don't have any evidence of where we had been or done, no evidence of our experience, no photos etc.

But we or I still had those experiences and they are stored in my brain, I can relay those memories to others the best I can but it's not the same.

In the end, I don't care because I know that I experienced them and that is all that really matters. In other words, I don't have anything to prove.

How does this relate to:


he was supposedly born without sin because of his divine or immaculate conception

and


i conclude that this ritual is symbolic of a time when our blood will be cleansed of sin and communion with god and each other restored, in a kingdom of perfection and eternal life.

Idealism worth striving for.



For the most part, yes. But I can think of one way. I have been places and done things either by myself or with a friend and we don't have any evidence of where we had been or done, no evidence of our experience, no photos etc.

But we or I still had those experiences and they are stored in my brain, I can relay those memories to others the best I can but it's not the same.

In the end, I don't care because I know that I experienced them and that is all that really matters. In other words, I don't have anything to prove.

How does this relate to:



and


it's a biological way to realize the ideal.

it's a biological way to realize the ideal.

Ok, but we still need him to be:


born without sin because of his divine or immaculate conception

And then you go from there.

If he wasn't and was just a man, then the rest is caput.

Ok, but we still need him to be:



And then you go from there.

If he wasn't and was just a man, then the rest is caput.

if he was just a man, the ritual's a bunch of crap too, yes. and the entire new testiment, and christianity in general.

i just know that no one else i've ever spoken to or heard...preacher, theologian...has ever correlated such a thing as what i'm talking about here.

jpapple, this is a message i received, and it has a lot to do with all the weird spiritual shit i've been through.

i just wanted to get some ideas from others. it's unusual.

i just know that no one else i've ever spoken to or heard...preacher, theologian...has ever correlated such a thing as what i'm talking about here.

Possibly, maybe. Have you looked into it ?


if he was just a man, the ritual's a bunch of crap too, yes.

Ok, just wanted to make sure we were on the same page there.


and the entire new testiment, and christianity in general.

Yep.

i just know that no one else i've ever spoken to or heard...preacher, theologian...has ever correlated such a thing as what i'm talking about here.

Could you give some specifics. Which part have you never heard spoken before.

Could you give some specifics. Which part have you never heard spoken before.

well, i get the impression from religious people that they think of the ritual as a very general concept...the spilled blood, broken body. doesn't really seem like they know why they're eating it and drinking it. it's just something to do.

i've never ever heard of sin being described as a genetic defect or something that can biologically be engineered out.

it seems like religious people think this is all going to happen by magic. there is no questioning the logistics of it at all. just "poof! you now have eternal life!"

nothing is magic.

all they talk about is the blood of christ, the blood of christ, but do they ever stop to think about how blood that was spilled on the ground 2000 years ago will actually redeem us?

it was supposed to be sinless blood. we are sinners.

if we had sinless blood like him, we wouldn't be sinners anymore.

i've never heard anything like what i'm suggesting from a religious person.

Ok, I will tell you what the Holy Grail is and where to find it, but first you must bring me..............


A SHRUBBERY

Ok, I will tell you what the Holy Grail is and where to find it, but first you must bring me..............


A SHRUBBERY

LOFL. What kind of shrubbery oh knights who say neek.

what's a shrubbery?

A shrubbery is a wide border to a garden where shrubs are thickly planted; or a similar larger area with a path winding through it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2UbtcmjfKa8

well, i get the impression from religious people that they think of the ritual as a very general concept...the spilled blood, broken body. doesn't really seem like they know why they're eating it and drinking it. it's just something to do.

i've never ever heard of sin being described as a genetic defect or something that can biologically be engineered out.

it seems like religious people think this is all going to happen by magic. there is no questioning the logistics of it at all. just "poof! you now have eternal life!"

nothing is magic.

all they talk about is the blood of christ, the blood of christ, but do they ever stop to think about how blood that was spilled on the ground 2000 years ago will actually redeem us?

it was supposed to be sinless blood. we are sinners.

if we had sinless blood like him, we wouldn't be sinners anymore.

i've never heard anything like what i'm suggesting from a religious person.

Ok, so I googled this a little and found:

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/BTP/Dr_MR_DeHaan/Chemistry/03.htm

This hurt my brain to read even some of it.

Considering the fact that there is more than one blood type.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_type

But I agree that religious people don't think about these things, because they really don't want to know, your not supposed to question it. You might find answers that don't line up with reality.

It is all based on magic and faith. Although they don't consider it magic which is kind of funny because they sure have a problem with that word. Maybe because if you start thinking about other claims of magic it starts to sound like what they are proposing.

I know that you have claimed to not follow the religious, the preacher per se, but where I get confused with you is that you believe in god (ok) but use the bible as the source of at least some of what you are proposing. Ie that we are all sinners and were born with sin and were born in need of cleansing.

If the bible is bs, which I claim it is. Do you believe in dinosaurs ?

Then it's not the word of god and therefore all of the stories are human creations. IE, jesus was just a man.

LOFL. What kind of shrubbery oh knights who say neek.

It must look nice and not be too expensive. And you shall place a second shrubbery next to it but slightly higher up with a little path running down the middle.... and you must cut down the mightiest tree in the forest with....
A HERRING :p

It must look nice and not be too expensive. And you shall place a second shrubbery next to it but slightly higher up with a little path running down the middle.... and you must cut down the mightiest tree in the forest with....
A HERRING :p

LOL.

Taking me back Anti-Flag, taking me back.

Ok, so I googled this a little and found:

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/BTP/Dr_MR_DeHaan/Chemistry/03.htm

This hurt my brain to read even some of it.

Considering the fact that there is more than one blood type.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_type

But I agree that religious people don't think about these things, because they really don't want to know, your not supposed to question it. You might find answers that don't line up with reality.

It is all based on magic and faith. Although they don't consider it magic which is kind of funny because they sure have a problem with that word. Maybe because if you start thinking about other claims of magic it starts to sound like what they are proposing.

I know that you have claimed to not follow the religious, the preacher per se, but where I get confused with you is that you believe in god (ok) but use the bible as the source of at least some of what you are proposing. Ie that we are all sinners and were born with sin and were born in need of cleansing.

If the bible is bs, which I claim it is. Do you believe in dinosaurs ?

Then it's not the word of god and therefore all of the stories are human creations. IE, jesus was just a man.


wow, i just read that link. i swear, i have never heard anyone speak like this before. one thing i don't understand is when he talks of the blood of the male passed down to generations and not the female. is that true? i didn't think it was.

i don't know about his suggestion that there's some holy chalise of perfect blood sitting up in heaven somewhere either. that seems a bit mystical to me. i've been told other things, and i would love it if someone who knew a thing or two about genetic engineering would post in this thread.

actually, no offense to you my friend jpapple, but i would love it if ANYONE would post in this thread!

typical...someone offers up something a bit more concrete and substantial than the typical religious whooey, and you all cower. :p

may i make a plea? this is not something i came up with. this message was dropped into my head. i have gone through hell to be able to stand here today with this message (and this is only part of it). please don't ignore this.

:wave:

oh, and jpapple, i expressed my thoughts regarding dinosaurs in the dinosaur thread. :)

wow, i just read that link. i swear, i have never heard anyone speak like this before. one thing i don't understand is when he talks of the blood of the male passed down to generations and not the female. is that true? i didn't think it was.

i don't know about his suggestion that there's some holy chalise of perfect blood sitting up in heaven somewhere either. that seems a bit mystical to me. i've been told other things, and i would love it if someone who knew a thing or two about genetic engineering would post in this thread.

actually, no offense to you my friend jpapple, but i would love it if ANYONE would post in this thread!

typical...someone offers up something a bit more concrete and substantial than the typical religious whooey, and you all cower. :p

may i make a plea? this is not something i came up with. this message was dropped into my head. i have gone through hell to be able to stand here today with this message (and this is only part of it). please don't ignore this.

:wave:

Ah Lori,

I linked to it because he mentions some of the ideas you had mentioned. It was one of I am sure many.

But I think the guy is a whack job, sorry.

First of all there are many blood types not one which is what he is getting from the bible, and I linked to Wiki so you could compare what he is saying with the reality. "Blood types are inherited and represent contributions from both parents. "

So back to the question of whether the bible is bs, because that is where you are getting the idea from in the first place. That he was born without sin etc etc.

If Jesus was just a man then the idea is just fantasy and is expecting magic to be a part, the very thing that you are chastising the religious for.

oh, and jpapple, i expressed my thoughts regarding dinosaurs in the dinosaur thread. :)

I know those are your thoughts but it is not a silly question. You can't both believe in creationism and all else that goes with the bible which is supposed to be the word of GOD and at the same time claim we evolved over hundreds of thousands of years and long before that dinosaurs roamed the earth.

It is a question to separate out the creationists from those who don't believe in the literal words.

The reason it is an important question for you is that you keep referring back to the bible for ideas about god and I am saying that if the bible is BS than what does that say about your ideas ?

So you claim to know there is a god, so what god is it ?

I am not saying it has to be any religions version of god, in fact I am sure of that. But still, what god or who's god is it that is connecting with you ?

Anybody who answers yes to I believe in dinosaurs or I believe in evolution needs to re-examine why they believe in god, not do they believe in god.

There is no way to have a rational conversation with a creationist unless you just want to talk about the weather.

What we need most of all, IMO, is an evolution of consciousness towards the idea of the possibility of a world where peace and love, in the Greek sense of agape, are regarded as normal. Further, where sharing of the Earth's bounty is done on an equal basis to all people acoording to their need (not their greed). Then we'll be a step or two closer to attaining the grail of perfection by our own efforts...:)

You didn't read what I posted in the dinosaur thread did you?

Those questions are not mutually exclusive. It is irrational to think that the bible is the entire recorded history of mankind or the earth, and that idea is not subtantiated anywhere in the bible. As a matter of fact I gave several examples that contradict that idea in the thread. One I left out was how was nod populated with the wives of cain and or abel?

And whether you actually believe what the book says is kind of irrelevant here. You can still grasp an if then correlation between the blood of christ and the communion ceremony.

Even if you were to equate god with the laws of nature you could see my point.

My point being...

THERE IS SOMETHING TERRIBLY WRONG WITH US!

Why do we destroy ourselves and each other and our planet? Why is there so much pain and suffering and lonliness and sickness and abuse?

I'll give you some reasons...greed is definitely #1. Sloth, gluttony, wrath, pride, envy, lust. A disconnect. A lack of knowledge. A blatent disregard for knowledge. Lies! Hate! A blatent disrespect for the greater good. The exploitation of EVERYTHING! The cost? Death and destruction!

This all boils down to a lack of communion, even if it were with the laws that govern this universe, and with each other, even if you reference my humble description.

WE ARE BLIND!

Even with all of our science. Why doesn't anyone consider that this could be rectified?!

What we need most of all, IMO, is an evolution of consciousness towards the idea of the possibility of a world where peace and love, in the Greek sense of agape, are regarded as normal. Further, where sharing of the Earth's bounty is done on an equal basis to all people acoording to their need (not their greed). Then we'll be a step or two closer to attaining the grail of perfection by our own efforts...:)

Ah...like music to my ears!

So the question is what will cause this shift in conciousness, because if you look at all of recorded history, and the world today, it is nowhere in sight.

2nd question...why is that?

Lori,


You didn't read what I posted in the dinosaur thread did you?

Those questions are not mutually exclusive. It is irrational to think that the bible is the entire recorded history of mankind or the earth, and that idea is not subtantiated anywhere in the bible. As a matter of fact I gave several examples that contradict that idea in the thread. One I left out was how was nod populated with the wives of cain and or abel?

I did, and it was the typical dancing and hand waving to avoid the lack of details in the book. And if you want to use the book as a basis for ideas then you have to consider it's lack of detail. It is certainly to those who believe that Jesus is our savior the word of god.

It starts out explaining creation. Hello, what is genesis. I asked that as well with no response.

My issue is not with those who believe in god, but with those who constantly refer back to the books of nonsense to qualify their belief.


And whether you actually believe what the book says is kind of irrelevant here. You can still grasp an if then correlation between the blood of christ and the communion ceremony.

No it's not, when you keep referring to it. The blood of christ for example, is straight out of the book.


Even if you were to equate god with the laws of nature you could see my point.

Totally different.


THERE IS SOMETHING TERRIBLY WRONG WITH US!

Disagree.


Why do we destroy ourselves and each other and our planet? Why is there so much pain and suffering and lonliness and sickness and abuse?

For the most part we have done a pretty good job of not destroying ourselves. If you watch the news every night it is full of negative stories because that sells. Your not looking at all of the good that most people do everyday. We had the capability of destroying almost all life on earth 60 years ago. Didn't happen and we are doing everything we can to make sure it doesn't.

A few bad apples doesn't make us all bad. You claim that all people are bad or genetically deformed is not valid.

Much of the bad that has happened to mankind is due to ignorance. That has not been helped by a variety of things, over running resources attribute to that. People having to many kids they can't pay for. In the old days most of them died, now we can keep them alive. Is that bad ?


I'll give you some reasons...greed is definitely #1. Sloth, gluttony, wrath, pride, envy, lust. A disconnect. A lack of knowledge. A blatent disregard for knowledge. Lies! Hate! A blatent disrespect for the greater good. The exploitation of EVERYTHING! The cost? Death and destruction!

This all boils down to a lack of communion, even if it were with the laws that govern this universe, and with each other, even if you reference my humble description.

WE ARE BLIND!

Even with all of our science. Why doesn't anyone consider that this could be rectified?!

First of all science isn't going to solve the fact that people have these tendacies at least still because of evolution. We have learned over thousands and thousands of years to get yours or else someone else will take it. It is how we have come to survive as a species for so long. It's not bad, it's not good, it's the way it is.

In fact without those tendacies, we wouldn't have made it to where we are.

I don't disagree that we have to find ways to find common ground ( communion ) and we are.

Your appealling to magic to save us. Blood of christ and all that.

I am saying our only hope is to keep fighting the good causes and fight for peace. Ignorance is the biggest hinderance to that.

The more we know about each other the better chance we have.