1984

Discussion in 'General Philosophy' started by Adam, Dec 1, 2002.

  1. Adam §Þ@ç€ MØnk€¥ Registered Senior Member

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    It's my favourite book. Tell me your thoughts on it please. DO NOT bother making comparisons with the USA; that can be done in the World Events & Politics section. Consider human society and human nature in general, and the nature of governments, and how this book relates to both.

    To start us off: It seems to me that the people most imprisoned by the system in 1984 were those enforcing it, while the proles were relatively free.


    PS: Please leave out the infantile chatter.
     
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  3. MacZ Caroline Registered Senior Member

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    When I was at school, the focus was all on the socio-political aspects but now that I’m that bit older it’s taken on a different feel altogether and those aspects have faded away and I find it profoundly sad as a story about ordinary life.

    That is, that there’s a great longing to feel emotions and excitement and passion that seems to be gone for good, and irretrievable. The strongest image for this, for me, is when Winston is looking into the snow globe.

    The only way to keep the sense of living and being alive instead of dead-alive, is to take some risk and not give into fears. Winston tries and fails, of course, and ultimately resembles many people who end up regretting the emotional vacuum their lives have become and remembering their old passionate selves as almost a different person entirely.

    Puts me in mind of that quote: in the depths of winter, I discovered there lay within me an invincible summer.
     
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  5. Zero Banned Banned

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    It's a kickass book. It rocks.

    I rather like the futility of Winston's struggle to find absolute standards of right/wrong and dig up long lost ideals. The social structure is rather intriguing, too.

    The proles free? They're imprisoned by their own narrow minds. Like Winston sees, they only bicker about stupid everyday things. Never about civil rights or anything worthwhile.


    __________________________________________
    There is no god, afterlife or divine love. There is only Entropy, the mother from which we were all born. She tugs our souls with the beautiful, maternal love of chaos. Why do you keep Her waiting?
     
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  7. Adam §Þ@ç€ MØnk€¥ Registered Senior Member

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    The proles do not live in the constant state of fear we see in Winston and even in O'Brien (I think that was the other guy's name, it's been a while). They must run from bombs now and then, but otherwise have very few cares. The Party people, on the other hand, are constantly afraid of each other, and of any words or actions of their own which might betray them to their own kind.
     
  8. Bebelina kospla.com Valued Senior Member

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  9. Xev Registered Senior Member

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    From one of my essays, 'cause I'm a lazy bitch:


     
  10. Tyler Registered Senior Member

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    "The proles do not live in the constant state of fear we see in Winston and even in O'Brien (I think that was the other guy's name, it's been a while). They must run from bombs now and then, but otherwise have very few cares. The Party people, on the other hand, are constantly afraid of each other, and of any words or actions of their own which might betray them to their own kind."

    So then, Adam, it is more freedom to have no clue what is going on and be under rules than it is to know what is going on and have some control and/or knowledge? It would seem, Adam, that you reject the old saying that knowledge is power. Actually, you don't just reject it, you flat out reverse it.



    "Sex, to Winston and Julia, is the ultimate act of rebellion, because it is the only act of intimacy permitted them."

    Well said.
     
  11. Adam §Þ@ç€ MØnk€¥ Registered Senior Member

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    Tyler

    The saying "Knowledge is power" has always been wrong. it is often used by people who like to sound wise but have little understanding of reality. Unused knowledge is useless. Knowledge in action is power. Put another way, knowledge is power if it is ever used.

    Did you notice in the book the old washer-woman singing in her back yard? How many Party people did that?
     
  12. Tyler Registered Senior Member

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    Adam you have failed totaly in showing that the proles had more freedom. What you have tried to do is show that they have just as much freedom. You say that knowledge is only power if it is used? So what freedom do the proles have? The freedom to be happy? Adam, then, it would seem you would agree with "ignorance is bliss".
     
  13. Xev Registered Senior Member

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    But Orwell clearly shows that the proles are NOT happy.
     
  14. scilosopher Registered Senior Member

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    And I thought 1984 was about complete reality tv. Or was it propaganda and brain washing? Certainly not love or sex.

    I'm not really sure myself, but I know that any argument about whether or not people are happy requires looking at them from their perspective. It also had a definite component of macro/society forces and micro/person forces and how they must both be compatible for long run stability.

    I think one of the worst modern frustrations is the world we've built where emotion is so separated from reason. At least in 1984 those in power try to integrate the world into a coherent view. Unfortunately they happened to pick one that would most likely rub human nature the wrong way.

    That's why I thought "Brave New World" was more scary. It seems like a more stable possibility for society to go in. I mean the only thing that keeps the US together is the fact that everyone likes stuff. And prohibition proved some stuff we like are mind altering substances.

    Anyways, I need to get back to work. I need to stay away from this place - too much possibility to waste time. After you haven't logged on for 6+ months they should stop emailing you on old threads - an addiction given up is so easy to restart.
     
  15. Adam §Þ@ç€ MØnk€¥ Registered Senior Member

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    The proles are aware of the Party and its activities. Yet the Party is primarily concerned with monitoring and controlling the Party, not the proles. The proles are not ignorant; they are aware of this. The live as they can, and the Party control the Party (ie, the power structure) to maintain its own status quo.

    No, I have not tried to show that the proles have an equal amount of freedom as the Party members. Please show that I have. What I have shown, and what the book clearly says, is that the Party exists to control itself, to maintain that power structure, to maintain its status indefinitely. The Party exists to control itself, not the proles.

    The proles, on the other hand, must watch out for bombs, but are otherwise free to actually have personal lives. They are free to express emotions, free to remember who the enemy really was last week, and so on.
     
  16. Adam §Þ@ç€ MØnk€¥ Registered Senior Member

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    Nobody is truly happy in 1984's world. But the proles are free to express unhappiness.
     
  17. CounslerCoffee Registered Senior Member

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    I wish I didnt have this book packed away.

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    The proles are happy. They can drink, think, and color the walls pink. They know that they have more power and more freedoms then the party, this makes them happy.

    But at some point the party has to realise that the Proles are a danger to everything that The Party stands for. So either one of two things would happen:

    1. Genocide.
    2. They kill all of them, genocide.

    In trying to destroy the proles though the party might bring itself down. I could imagine a Vietnam type situation happening in the world of 1984.
     
  18. Redrover Registered Senior Member

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    Saying that the proles are free to think in 1984 is like saying that people on welfare have the freedom to lay around all day. It's not viewed as much of a benefit. Winston probably had the choice to become a prole.

    By the way, Brave new world is a better book.
     
  19. CounslerCoffee Registered Senior Member

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    Redrover,

    Welcome to sciforums. While 1984 is not my favorite book (On the Beach is), it is easy for me to say this: What are you crazy? No book is better then 1984?! Its awesome!

    Funny thought. What I liked about 1984 was the language newspeak. Which was the only language to shrink every year.

    Ungood? Unbad? Just some neat stuff in that book.
     
  20. EvelinaAnville Registered Senior Member

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    My disjointed ramblings

    Okay. I'm going to try this again. I lost my original post a few days ago

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    because I was working on the Windows® Nice Try® computers at work. I think this post is also a nice try, but I'll post it anyway.

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    scilosopher
    scilosopher
    Winston is totally obsessed with bodily functions, including sex. Even though he is dying of bad cigarettes and bad gin, he still yearns for physical intimacy and intellectual freedom. Winston has his escapes (like the proles do) in the gin and cigarettes, but they cannot compare to the love and acceptance of another human being. Maybe what the proles have that Winston and Julia (and the rest of the party elite) don't have is the freedom to love, to feel their own feelings. But, the proles do not have the intellectual ability to contemplate the spiritual nature of love, therefore, they too are divorced from some natural aspect of themselves. (This is not my belief about so-called "lower classes," it is just my opinion regarding one of Orwell's themes in 1984.) If the proles and party members could unite their strengths, they would both be happy

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    My friend once told me she wished she had never gone to college, that she would have been happier if she had stayed ignorant of all the ways we brain fuck ourselves as intellectuals. She knew how to reason well and discuss intellectual topics before she went to college, but since she has gone, she feels like the people in her economic position (specifically, we were talking about women with children on welfare) are happier than her because they are ignorant of the nihilistic world of intellectualism coupled with the overload of information gleaned from fellow students. That so blew my mind when I heard it. It was like destroying my addiction in life -- the love of knowledge.

    I personally cannot imagine ever being a prole (or one of my society's equivalents--the intelluctually impoverised). I love new knowledge too much. I think Winston was just as happy/unhappy as a member of the Party as any prole would be because he did not have that ability to pursue knowledge freely as I do. As for the proles or the party having any power, this I would argue with too. I think that something Blair did not seem to recognize is that the fundamental difference between himself and Winston was not that Orwell/Blair did not live under a totalitarian regime, but that he had more of the personal and community resources to fight totalitarian control. I have the ability (or curse?) to pursue knowledge not because I lack some restrictive governement, but because in the 1st/capitalist world/countries, we have the money to have the freedom to do what we want. So, the "proles" of our society would be happier not because they are ignorant, but because they are basically saved from the basic wants of food, shelter, clothing, heat. Of course not all people in the 1st world are likewise saved, but compare the proles of Oceania with the "ignorant masses" of Europe/America/Australia/Canada/etc. and you will find that they are probably less disatisfied with their lives because most of them are freed, basically, from the wants of survival, which the proles did not seem to be. Then again, maybe I am full of shit. In the society I live in I am able to have / buy the freedom to pursue my intellectual leanings. Orwell seems to confuse lack of personal wealth (i.e., power) with state oppression. I'm sure if Winston had had the personal wealth some of the 1st worlders have he too would have been able to follow his intellectual proclivities because he would have had the material wealth to keep him (fairly) safe from party manipulation. Without that personal wealth, he was hindered--he did not have the freedom--from exploring knowledge (as Orwell/Blair was able to do). That seems to me to be the thing that Orwell finds most tragic about Winston that he cannot pursue what Orwell loved, mental masturbation, oops, I mean intellectual discovery. Winston's tragedy does not seem to stem from Orwell's belief that socialism as equal to totalitarianism--it comes through the book even though I think Orwell did not mean it to come out that way (yeah, yeah author's intent and all of that). Orwell could not remove himself from the world he lived in where totalitarian governments seemed to be leaning toward a distorted form of socialism. If he could have removed himself from 1940's England (just as I could remove myself from second millinial America) and see how his freedom was based not on the absense of opressive government but on the presence of post-war capital.
     
  21. scilosopher Registered Senior Member

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    EvelinaAnville,
    I actually probably don't remember it well enough to comment to intelligently on details ... part of the reason for the flippant comments. I'm not sure about love being of pivotal importance to the major subject of the work though. Even the sex I think, as evident from your grouping, is just another in the list of visceral pleasures.

    I would certainly agree that our society is set up for people who would find pleasure in stuff not ideas and this can lead to frustration for those that want a different social esthetic. I'm not sure intellectualism necessarily leads to nihilism and brain fucking yourself. Then again I'm probably not an intellectual as I haven't read all the right philosophy etc. to qualify.

    I would also differentiate knowledge and ideas. Reading and learning supplies you with ideas more than knowledge. Ideas are safe. Things that could be true and are fun to think about. Knowledge is a good way to miss what's right in front of your face.

    I definitely think there are many perks to the wealth the US and other countries have that is missed because people spend money on stuff rather than acquiring ideas. Especially since ideas often yield some return and most stuff depreciates in value rapidly ... some addictions are good and not necessarily best given up. I'm addicted to life - not planning on quitting any time soon.

    I'm probably not even accurately replying to what you mean, but not remembering the book to well I went with general reactions your post elicited ...
     
  22. SelfRighteous Registered Member

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    Mindless drones to an oppressive government, or having the right to eat, drink, and be merry.
    Who is free?
    As far as I'm concerned they're both ignorant.
    We were shown the world of 1984 through the eyes of Winston, and there is no doubt that he is not the average party member. The fact that Orwell *thanks god* decided not to present the story through "Joe Party Big Brother Lover" is for entertainment's sake, and it is entertaining for the fact that he is not the norm. So, i revert to my original idea, You have one party member who *ignorantly* loves his government and is so dutifully careful to obey that he surrenders all personal freedom and a Prole who *ignorantly* goes on with his life the way he wants it be lived. The Prole even remembers who we've been at war with, but, for the most part, even more so knows that it doesn't matter. I'd rather be able to sit down with a pint and bullshit about my latest "sexual conquest" with a bunch of the guys than scream my guts out at a forced "hate orgy" with a group of people that have a hard-on for a poster with a voice any day.
     

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