8 Million Americans have Near Death Experiences according to Gallup Poll

Discussion in 'Parapsychology' started by Mazulu, Nov 29, 2013.

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  1. Cheezle

    Cheezle Hab SoSlI' Quch! Registered Senior Member

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    745
    I am not sure modulation means what you think it means, but then I don't know what you think it means since you did not elaborate. I would say that and NDE could be evidence of a similar modulation of consiousness. There is one way to discover the truth. Take someone who has had an NDE and give them a dose of ketamine. Then have the person compare the experiences. I believe that this experiment will be done, maybe soon. There are several researchers that are trying ketamine in their experiments now because of the similarities.

    I assume that you have never had an NDE or taken a hallucinogen. So you have little to say from either perspective. On the other hand I have had both experiences. In fact I have had an OOBE similar to some of those operating room examples while not under the influence of any substance. I also have had not a few 'experiences' in the Jimi Hendrix sense of the word. I can tell you that there are similarities as well as subtle differences. Not all types of hallucination alter your senses. Some only alter your interpretation of what your experience is. What ever your idea of modulation of consciousness is, it is way off base. Hallucinogens produce very odd effects, odder than you can imagine. Odd in a way that defies the explanation that a drug was involved. This is why some people turn to mysticism after their experiences. It isn't that they don't know the sensory data was altered.

    Perhaps these things are possible but our technology has not advanced far enough yet. There is some progress in all of these areas. It is slow progress but that is how things work. Give it some time.
     
    Cheezle, Dec 3, 2013
    #161

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  3. dumbest man on earth

    dumbest man on earth Real Eyes Realize Real Lies Valued Senior Member

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    Mazulu, constantly repeating falsities does not make them real. Was your characterization of me, ^^above^^, picked at random?


    So...now that you "guess" an explanation is needed - when will you provide said explanation?


    Mazulu...I honestly feel for you...sorry...but you really need more help than you can ever hope to find on these Forums.

    I think you are still referring to a "Gallup Poll", If they were not Polled - how can you be so sure of their responses?

    Mazulu, could you possibly try a controlled laboratory experiment to detect these "maybe non-standard model particles"?
    I am not claiming any success would be had - but at least it is more scientific than "bad humor".


    Mazulu, if...you only would get help...sorry, but I am honestly trying to help...but you only see what you want... so...sorry...
     
    dumbest man on earth, Dec 3, 2013
    #162

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  5. Mazulu

    Mazulu Banned Banned

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    Did you have a near death experience with all of the blood drained out of your brain? Did you have an NDE while no brain activity was recorded?
     
    Mazulu, Dec 3, 2013
    #163

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  7. Mazulu

    Mazulu Banned Banned

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    Do you have data to back that up? Every time I've had an "experience", I'm relaxed. I don't think stress (adrenalin) has anything to do with it.
     
    Mazulu, Dec 3, 2013
    #164
  8. Cheezle

    Cheezle Hab SoSlI' Quch! Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    745
    I can guarantee you that anyone who has had all of their blood drained out of their brain has afterwards not experienced anything ever again because they would be dead. Same with no brain activity. NDEs occur under lots of different circumstances, but not those ones you mentioned. Near death is not equal to death.
     
    Cheezle, Dec 3, 2013
    #165
  9. Mazulu

    Mazulu Banned Banned

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    To quote the article,
    So what you're saying is that no brain-wave activity and no blood flow will cause hallucinations? Is that what you're arguing?
     
    Mazulu, Dec 3, 2013
    #166
  10. Cheezle

    Cheezle Hab SoSlI' Quch! Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    745
    Absolutely, that is what the article said. But the article was inaccurate and meant to get a geewiz reaction from people like you. I read the surgeons technical description of his technique. It did not say there was no blood in the brain or no brain activity. (Note: I was referring to your original quote that all blood was drained from the brain. There was no blood flow during the operation seems to be a true statement.) The EEG showed no response but this is a far field detection device known to be inaccurate at diagnosing death. The key to the surgeon's technique is giving the patient barbiturates, which lower brain cell metabolism so that they can survive while the heart is stopped. Large doses of barbiturates can fool doctor that brain death occurred when using an EEG. They had to carefully balance the brain cell metabolism with drugs and lowering of body temperature. At no time was the patient clinically dead. They monitored brain activity in several ways, not just an EEG. The patient was given barbiturates, narcotics, nitrous oxide and a few other drugs. The nitrous oxide is dissociative. But she was unlikely to be hallucinating during the operation. The combination of drugs leaves a hangover of memory impairment and confusion for a day or two. More than likely the NDE was a false memory perhaps triggered by expectations of a NDE. Perhaps she had read about NDEs and was primed to give a false positive. It was not a controlled experiment and so was proof of nothing other than a better way to do drastic dangerous brain surgery.
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2013
    Cheezle, Dec 3, 2013
    #167
  11. James R

    James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    39,426
    Mazulu,

    Suppose I take a photo of you with my digital camera and show it to you on the camera's screen. Where is the image of you happening? Is the image happening at the camera lens? Is it happening on the camera's light sensors? Is it happening inside the camera's computer chips? How do you get a bunch of computer chips to produce an image of Mazulu? How is it that I can capture the essence of Mazulu's image with this computerised device? Surely such a thing must be impossible.

    If pixies had yellow waistcoats then we could all eat scones for tea.

    How about you attempt to answer the questions I asked you rather than dodging them? Is it because you can't answer them, or you don't understand them?

    I haven't rejected it. Specifically, I asked you what scientific test could conceivably disprove the existence of your "consciousness field".

    See, all good scientific theories are falsifiable. Is your consciousness field falsifiable? If not, then it's a scientifically useless idea.

    You missed the point. The question of whether a soul exists can't be decided by a popularity poll. Suppose you're right and 8 million people believe souls exist. Then what? Does that show that souls exist? Not at all. It just shows what a bunch of people believe.

    You can see how opinion polls can get things badly wrong with my example of dinosaurs.

    Right.

    And I would suggest that one difficulty you, Mazulu, labour under is that you trust too much in uniformed opinions you've heard or read. You should learn some science and, just as importantly, something about critical thinking. Then you wouldn't blindly accept so much nonsense, or convince yourself of the truth of some vague theory you just made up on the spot.

    Fine.

    When you've learned about dark matter and have a testable model of the dark-matter nature of "spirit" that will (potentially) allow your theory to be disproven, get back to me with the details. In the meantime, all you have is a "guess", like you say.

    You missed the point again.

    The point is that the burden of proof is traditionally on the person making a claim, particular where that claim goes against the knowledge accepted by a majority of people. Thus, if you claim that a soul exists, you have the burden of providing appropriate evidence to support your claim. It is not up to other people to prove that souls don't exist.

    I don't think you understand how polls work. 8 million people weren't interviewed individually. What polls do is to take a random sample of, say, 100 people. Provided the sample is random enough, the survey questions are fair, and the sample is representative, it can be reasonable to extrapolate the numbers to the national level.

    Here, your claim is that billions of people have seen souls (even though they are usually considered to be invisible, as I understand it). That means you're talking at least 2/7 of the world's population. But you also claim that these people haven't reported seeing souls. So, the question is: how do you know what 2 billion people have or haven't seen?

    Or are you still just guessing and making stuff up?

    Are you saying, then, that there's no scientific experiment that we can possibly do that will detect a soul, even though "billions" of people have supposedly seen one?

    Remind me again: what's your basis for believing in souls?

    Tell me why you believe souls exist. It can't be on the basis of evidence. It's just because you believe some stories you've heard or read. Right?

    Did you not understand what I wrote? Your response makes no sense.

    So, to translate your response: your hypothesis is fundamentally untestable, and therefore scientifically worthless.

    Are we done?
     
    James R, Dec 3, 2013
    #168
  12. Mazulu

    Mazulu Banned Banned

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    3,090
    Or maybe we have a soul.
     
    Mazulu, Dec 3, 2013
    #169
  13. Mazulu

    Mazulu Banned Banned

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    3,090
    james r,
    What is the equation for experiencing love, or hate or feelings of any kind? How do you build a device that can experience it? Science finds itself on the outside looking in. You can point to measurements of electrical activity in the brain, but fundamentally, you can't reproduce the quality of consciousness. Science can't duplicate consciousness because something is missing. You have to throw out 8 million NDE data points to avoid the conclusion that there is a ghost in the machine. Consciousness is modulated by the brain. Your conclusion that consciousness is created by the brain is a mistake. It's like saying that electrical signals from a computer are created by the computer. But you forget where the electricity comes from. It comes from the wall outlet. The electrical signals that make a computer work come from outside the computer. The power supply and circuit boards merely modulate the 110 AC volts and turn it into DC voltages, clocks. TTL logic, etc. Consciousness is the say way.

    The fact that so many people have near death experiences that involve floating over one's own body, rising up into heaven, meeting dead friends/relatives/angels/beings of light/disassociation with the body/life review/etc., just don't fit the scientific paradigm. Well, maybe consciousness extends beyond the natural world. Or maybe there are things beyond what science can detect?
     
    Mazulu, Dec 3, 2013
    #170
  14. kx000

    kx000 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    5,137
    What are your experiences? I have "hallucinated" fire sparking from thin air. Among other things like a light spirit, and a dark spirit at different times.
     
    kx000, Dec 3, 2013
    #171
  15. Cheezle

    Cheezle Hab SoSlI' Quch! Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    745
    I see you are switching from consciousness to soul. Are they the same? And what about the spirit?
    Obviously you are concerned with facing non-existance. This might help. Or maybe not.
    [video=youtube;giZN0ZuDERY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=giZN0ZuDERY[/video]
     
    Cheezle, Dec 3, 2013
    #172
  16. Mazulu

    Mazulu Banned Banned

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    3,090
    Are you faking care and concern again?
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2013
    Mazulu, Dec 3, 2013
    #173
  17. dumbest man on earth

    dumbest man on earth Real Eyes Realize Real Lies Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,523

    Mazulu, why must you ask if Cheezle is "faking care and concern again?"

    When you express "care and concern" for fellow human beings - are you only "faking" it? If not, why must you assume or even have to ask if other people would?

    Mazulu, all anybody is asking or requesting of you on these Forums is that you produce concrete evidence of your statements. Factual evidence that anyone or everyone is able to test and verify. Yet, you do not.

    Instead, you continually choose to provide you-tube videos, wiki-quotes, conjecture, fantasy, guesses, what if's and delusional non-existent evidence.

    Mazulu, how can you continue to fail to see something so simple as that?

    Mazulu, why must you continue to ignore such simple requests?
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2013
    dumbest man on earth, Dec 3, 2013
    #174
  18. Mazulu

    Mazulu Banned Banned

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    3,090
    dmoe,
    Your on my ignore list for lack of content and incessant insults.
     
    Mazulu, Dec 3, 2013
    #175
  19. dumbest man on earth

    dumbest man on earth Real Eyes Realize Real Lies Valued Senior Member

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    3,523
    ??? your...not you're or you are...??? ...anyway

    Mazulu, may I humbly refer you to the previous Posts #'s 86 to #127 inclusive, when you Posted :


    #127 -
    Mazulu, I may be one of the few Posters left on this Forum that actually read your Posts and still worry about your well being.

    Mazulu, I sincerely hope that someday you are better able to utilize your intelligence - instead of seeming to only choose to continuously exercise what appears to be ignorance.

    Again Mazulu,...sorry.

    BTW, if you truly believe your allegations against me then I humbly repost my Post #123, below :

     
    dumbest man on earth, Dec 3, 2013
    #176
  20. Mazulu

    Mazulu Banned Banned

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    3,090
    dmoe,
    When I see your post shine with the light of wisdom, I'll take you off my ignore list.
     
    Mazulu, Dec 3, 2013
    #177
  21. dumbest man on earth

    dumbest man on earth Real Eyes Realize Real Lies Valued Senior Member

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    3,523
    Mazulu, sorry, but I have no control over what you choose to see or ignore!

    And, how did you make the light of wisdom shine like that? Are you "special"?
     
    dumbest man on earth, Dec 3, 2013
    #178
  22. dumbest man on earth

    dumbest man on earth Real Eyes Realize Real Lies Valued Senior Member

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    3,523
    dumbest man on earth, Dec 3, 2013
    #179
  23. James R

    James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    39,426
    Mazulu,

    There isn't an equation. The brain is a neural network.

    There isn't an equation for experiencing anything. Having an experience is a function of the software in your head, which is implemented by the brain hardware. No evidence suggests otherwise.

    Sexual reproduction?

    You're a device that can experience it.

    This is not to say that a digital computer can never experience love, hate or other feelings. It's just a different hardware implementation of the necessary software.

    This is god of the gaps.

    You don't know that the quality of consciousness cannot be reproduced. You just like to think it can't be. When it is reproduced, then no doubt you'll change your arguments for a soul to something else that science hasn't managed to do yet.

    No.

    There are many scientifically viable explanations for NDEs. You've already been given a few in this thread. The soul is an unnecessary hypothesis in that context. Occam's razor suggests that we don't introduce it.

    You're confusing the energy source with the information source. A computer does create electrical signals all the time. To produce those, it needs an external energy source, which is the AC power. Similarly, you, as a human being, create consciousness in the neurons of your brain. That brain also has an external power source, namely the food you eat.

    There's no evidence that consciousness is created by anything outside the brain.

    And if it was, then you'd need to explain the mechanism by which consciousness from outside is able to interact with the brain and body inside. All you've managed on that front so far is an ad hoc, untestable hypothesis that has no empirical value.

    Sure they do. I already explained how there are physiological factors at work, combined with some social conditioning. Basically, these manifestations are probably hallucinations or dreams.

    There's no evidence that consciousness extends beyond the natural world. For that matter, there's no evidence that anything extends beyond the natural world.

    And if there are things beyond what science can detect, how could we possibly know about them? As human beings, the tools we have for detecting stuff are only the same tools as are available to scientists. In fact, science in most cases has far more sensitive tools available to it.
     
    James R, Dec 4, 2013
    #180
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