9/11: are there a few irrefutable facts that prove what kind of event it was?

Discussion in 'The Cesspool' started by Petra Liverani, Mar 27, 2023.

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  1. Petra Liverani Registered Member

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    Would you say you can identify one or more irrefutable facts that essentially prove what kind of event it was. If so, what are they? Even if you think there are a large number of irrefutable facts what would you put forward as being the only ones required for proof if you think only a small number is required.
     
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  3. foghorn Valued Senior Member

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    Last edited: Mar 27, 2023
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  5. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    Think of it this way: He wants to go about asking the questions because he doesn't have any good answers. This is similar to something we've seen in other kinds of discussions, where someone asks people to answer a question in order to tell people who answer that they are wrong.

    It actually works better with stuff like asking people what they think God wants, so that one can simply reply to the answers by reminding that there is no God.

    In this case, though, our recently-arrived neighbor appears to want to try that stunt with Covid, 9/11, and moon landings; it was unclear what he wanted with Hitler, but that part was awkward, too.

    It all has to do with "rules" or "guideposts" for critical thinking↗. Inasmuch as he has been told in at least two different ways what is wrong with how he is going about it, that, at least, is what the idea of "irrefutable facts" is about. It has to do with what he describes as confining analysis to what is most relevant and unarguable. And the thing is, before we even get to the idea of three simple rules for critical thinking, the most obvious question is how the rules are applied, and where they lead. Covid antivax, moon landing, 9/11, and maybe the bit normalizing Hitler was rough-hewn and would have ironed out with a couple rewrites, but as one who writes complex sentences and sometimes fails to bring the point around.

    Oh, right. As someone who writes complex sentences and sometimes fails to bring them 'round to finish, one thing I learned a long time ago is that it looks a lot worse when using an extraneously controversial example. But normalizing Hitler was either an accident or not. And like I told him: Even setting aside the dubiousness self-perceived specialness, or the incompleteness that sometimes comes with trying too hard, we might look at how the rules of critical thinking are applied, and see what they bring.

    I hadn't seen the 9/11 stuff, yet, but, sure, put it on the list. This is where his version of critical thinking leads.
     
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  7. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

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    it was a bad event because a lot of good people died
     
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  8. Petra Liverani Registered Member

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    No, it's simply trying a different approach. Also, I'm really very curious to know what people think are irrefutable facts that support whatever their hypothesis is. I certainly have what I consider irrefutable facts which I will deliver - I'm just waiting to see what others put forward - so far very little but I'll wait a few days.
    It's interesting how many people think I'm a man although as far as I know Petra is only a woman's name - my mother always said she thought like a man - maybe I do too.

    It's really more about correct thinking than right or wrong although sure obviously only one hypothesis can be correct.
     
  9. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    My apologies, especially as I can see the symbol in your avatar blank. I must have been recalling the Christian rock band.
     
  10. Petra Liverani Registered Member

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    That's interesting. I didn't even notice what filled my avatar blank and I don't recall indicating my gender when I signed up but perhaps I did or perhaps the system just uses certain smarts.
     
  11. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

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    Yes

    Planes deliberately flew into buildings to kill occupants of those buildings

    Buildings did not jump up to get hit

    Mostly successful

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  12. O. W. Grant Registered Senior Member

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    Petra, please stick to the official version.

     
  13. exchemist Valued Senior Member

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    I don't believe you are very curious to know "what people think are irrefutable facts".

    I think you have a nutcase conspiracy theory to promote and you want to waste our time with arguments that we can't know for sure what happened and that therefore, somehow, whatever your mad notion is should be treated as just as likely as the accepted version of events.

    I would be delighted to be proved wrong, but my cynicism is borne of experience.
     
  14. O. W. Grant Registered Senior Member

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    Last edited: Mar 28, 2023
  15. foghorn Valued Senior Member

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    On the same day in America, four passenger planes crashed within a few minutes of each other.
    Two of those planes hit common 'targets' The Towers.
    One crashed at The Pentagon.
    The other crashed in a field in Pennsylvania.

    Petra Liverani, given your Twitter statement:
    https://twitter.com/SinghLions/status/1568817382168346627?lang=en-GB
    If those planes were not hijacked then what is your take on it Petra Liverani ?
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2023
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  16. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    Irrefutable fact - I came within 20 minutes of being on American Airlines Flight 11.
     
  17. foghorn Valued Senior Member

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    According to Petra Liverani those planes crashes were ''fake''.

    Two posts of Petra's I found elsewhere on this topic.
    https://caitlinjohnstone.com/2019/12/12/why-i-dont-talk-more-about-911/
    Petra Liverani
    CD = Controlled demolition?
    Petra Liverani
    My bold above.
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2023
  18. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

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    telephone calls from hijacked passengers on the planes
    video evidence of the planes crashing & surrounding chaos & buildings collapsing
    morgue's full of bodies

    do you believe The Holocaust was real ?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust


    ... addendum fyi
    i use to have the occasion to chat with a Holocaust survivor
    she survived the camps as a child
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2023
  19. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    That strikes me as a very strange question. As others have noted, it makes one suspicious that you have an agenda you want to pursue, but you're not telling us up front. Why is that?

    Given that there have been extensive investigations of the 9/11 hijackings and the subsequent loss of many lives, there is a now a large body of facts about the events which are, for all practical purposes, irrefutable.

    For instance, we know that a cell of Al Qaida operatives hijacked some commercial aircraft. We know that two aircraft crashed into the World Trade Centre in New York, which soon after led to the collapse of the two towers and a significant loss of life. We know that one aircraft crashed into the Pentagon, again leading to significant loss of life. We know that another aircraft crashed into a field, again leading to significant loss of life.

    We know a lot about the Al Qaida organisation and its terrorist activities, along with its ideology and its aims in targeting Americans.

    We know the identities of the hijackers of the aircraft and lots of things about their actions leading up to the hijackings, as well as their actions during the hijackings.

    All of these things have been so thoroughly established by relevant experts that they are essentially irrefutable. Moreover, all of this information and a lot of the analysis is in the public domain, so if you doubt any of it you can, in principle, verify its accuracy yourself.

    Anything else you want to know, Petra?
     
  20. Sarkus Hippomonstrosesquippedalo phobe Valued Senior Member

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    Shouldn't we wait before Petra Liverani posts something on the matter here, rather than start addressing what they might have said elsewhere, and criticising them for it? If you want to discuss what was said by someone on another website, perhaps sign up to that other website?

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    I'll wait to see what they actually say here, although I'm not holding out much hope of anything sensible.
     
  21. exchemist Valued Senior Member

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    No, I think we should head off any nonsense at the pass, before it arrives.

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  22. Petra Liverani Registered Member

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    I won't respond individually to replies, however, I'll just make the point that as stated in other threads my two rules for critical thinking are:
    1. Aim to prove your hypothesis wrong
    2. Stick to the irrefutable facts in the first analysis

    When putting forward claims as irrefutable, the critical thinker shows they have consulted refutational material. Of course, they may be unaware of it but no critical thinker would be unaware of that put forward for 9/11. No responder has even acknowledged refutational material let alone shown they have engaged with it in a serious manner. One example, the disputed authenticity of the phone calls - see https://www.consensus911.org/the-911-consensus-points/#Phone1

    Interestingly, the irrefutable facts in 10 points I now put forward have not been challenged as far as I know because they’re not typical of facts put forward by critics of the mainstream narrative so, in this case, acknowledgement of opposing material is moot but regardless you can, of course, do both or either of:
    • Dispute that my stated facts are irrefutable
    • Argue that my facts don’t support the hypothesis implied
    1. Dead and injured: We are told that 2,997 and over 6,000 were injured on 9/11 (figures vary).
    https://en.as.com/latest_news/how-many-people-died-and-were-injured-in-the-911-attacks-n/

    2. Exercises: On September 11, 2001, the North American Aerospace Defense Command (NORAD) was involved in an ongoing operation which involved deploying fighter aircraft to northeastern North America.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unite...perations_and_exercises_on_September_11,_2001

    3. Impact of war games on response: In response to Democratic Congresswoman, Cynthia McKinney's question about whether the four war games conducted on the morning of 9/11 impaired the military’s ability to respond to the 9/11 attacks, General Myers' response was, "The answer to the question is no, it did not impair our response, in fact General Eberhart who was in the command of the North American Aerospace Defense Command as he testified in front of the 9/11 Commission I believe … I believe he told them that it enhanced our ability to respond, given that NORAD didn’t have the overall responsibility for responding to the attacks that day, that was an FAA responsibility. But there were two CPXs [Command Post Exercises]; there was one Department of Justice exercise that didn’t have anything to do with the other three and there was an actual operation ongoing because there was some Russian bomber activity up near Alaska.”"
    I don't know how to put a bookmark link - Starting point in video is at 6m17.


    4. Aircraft accident investigator’s evaluation: Col. George Nelson, MBA, U.S. Air Force (ret) – Former U.S. Air Force aircraft accident investigator and airplane parts authority. Graduate, U.S. Air Force War College said this about the four planes on 9/11(note I do not say what he claims is irrefutable just that he said it but if you wish to argue that the source of this text is not reliable I ask you to consider if there is anything in what he says that strikes you as anomalous considering the evidence):

    “With all the evidence readily available at the Pentagon crash site, any unbiased rational investigator could only conclude that a Boeing 757 did not fly into the Pentagon as alleged. Similarly, with all the evidence available at the Pennsylvania crash site, it was most doubtful that a passenger airliner caused the obvious, but small hole in the ground and certainly not the Boeing 757 as alleged. Regarding the planes that allegedly flew into the WTC towers, it is only just possible that heavy aircraft were involved in each incident, but no evidence has been produced that would add credence to the government’s alleged version of what actually caused the total destruction of the WTC buildings, let alone proving the identity of the aircraft. It is time to apply the precautionary principle.”

    More detail including the individual planes here: https://www.ff911truth.org/col-george-nelson

    5. WTC buildings where deaths were reported: Names of people who died in the seven plus buildings that were completely destroyed or damaged on 9/11 were reported only for WTCs 1, 2 and 3 but no deaths of specific people were reported in buildings WTCs 4, 5, 6 and 7 or other damaged buildings while many deaths were reported in the World Trade Centre generally.

    6. Damage to WTC buildings: The damage reported with regard to WTCs 4, 5 and 6 is as follows:

    WTC-4, 9 storeys - Much of the southern two-thirds of the building was destroyed, and the remaining north portion virtually destroyed, as a result of the collapse of the South Tower. The structure was subsequently razed. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4_World_Trade_Center

    WTC-5, 9 storeys - It suffered severe damage and partial collapse on its upper floors as a result of the September 11 attacks in 2001 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5_World_Trade_Center

    WTC-6, 8 storeys - The building's ruins were demolished to make way for reconstruction of the current World Trade Center site - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6_World_Trade_Center

    An aerial view of the World Trade Center collapse following the Sept. 11 terrorist attack. Surrounding buildings were heavily damaged by the debris and massive force of the falling twin towers. (Department of Defense)
    https://www.atlantahistorycenter.com/app/uploads/2021/09/132105258_e9d34eb0ef_o-1440x810.jpg

    7. Company employed for cleanup: Controlled Demolition, Inc (CDI), which holds a few world records for demolition of very large buildings and a good safety record according to their website was hired to clean up the WTC. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controlled_Demolition,_Inc.

    8. Lack of injured taken to trauma centre: Cynthia McFadden at Chelsea Piers in West Manhattan where a trauma centre was set up responded to ABC anchor, Peter Jennings’ question about injured being brought to the centre that in the parade of ambulances and rescue vehicles most of them were empty apart from a few rescue workers


    9. Description of injured: Chief of Surgery, NYU Downtown Hospital (140 beds as of 2004), Dr Howard Beaton said: “Some patients were very, very severely injured and three patients were actually brought in dead on arrival. … patients who had severe head injuries, … severe injuries to their chest, bleeding inside their chest, spinal cord fractures, fractures of the pelvis, bleeding internally, large soft tissue injuries with big burns, large amounts of tissue loss, muscle hanging out, limbs at all sorts of strange angles, it was really quite something to see. For someone who’s had no wartime experience, this, I suspect, is close to a battlefield as you’ll ever get. … We were then in a situation where we were told to expect a second wave … we restocked, we restaffed and then we just waited … it became Wednesday morning, we were fully staffed and then the realisation that there were no more severely ill patients coming from the disaster site …
    Relevant start point is 1m33s


    This link goes to google images responses to the query “9/11 injured”
    shorturl.at/syEPR

    10. Miracle survivals of North Tower collapse: We are told 16 people survived the 12-second collapse of the North tower including Pasquale Buzzelli, structural engineer, as explained in this article, Miracle Survivors.
    http://nymag.com/nymetro/news/sept11/2003/n_9189/

    “I felt the walls next to me crack and buckle on top of me,” he says. Suddenly, he seemed to be in free fall, and the walls seemed to separate and move away from him.

    Maybe two hours later, he regained consciousness on a slab of concrete 180 feet below the 22nd floor. (He may be the source of the rumor that someone surfed the collapse and lived.)”

    Collapse of the North tower
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2023
  23. exchemist Valued Senior Member

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