A excerpt from my ISU! 11/24/03 - Complete ISU Added!

A excerpt from my ISU!

Here is a sneak peak to my Philosophy ISU concerning itself with Herzl's political zionist philosophy.

I will post my entire thing by Tuesday.

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Just some quotes

"My reason tells me that land cannot be sold, nothing can be sold
but such things as can be carried away". -Black Hawk, Sauk.

"Some of our chiefs make the claim that the land belongs to us.
It is not what the Great Spirit told me. He told me that the land
belongs to Him, that no people own the land, and that I was not to
forget to tell this to the white people". -Kannekuk, Kickapoo.

"Is it wrong for me to love my own? Is it wicked for me because my
skin is red? Because I am Sioux? Because I was born where my father
lived? Because I would die for my people and my country? God made
me an Indian."-Chief Sitting Bull

"If the white man wants to live in peace with the Indian,
he can live in peace.....Treat all men alike. Give them all the
same law. Give them all an even chance to live and grow.
All men were made by the same Great Spirit Chief.
They are all brothers. The Earth is the mother of all people,
and all people should have equal rights upon it.......
Let me be a free man, free to travel, free to stop, free to work,
free to trade....where I choose my own teachers, free to follow the
religion of my fathers, free to think and talk and act for myself,
and I will obey every law, or submit to the penalty."
-Chief Joseph, Nez Perce

I always joy the clarity of Indians thoughts.

"Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents,
it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth
from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children."
-Ancient Indian Proverb

 

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I think the problem here is in essence nationalism itself. To claim land is rather primal...but hey what do you want? The land is still not demographically Zionist, meanwhile here in America it's not demographicly Native anymore.

 

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I´m allready sorry that I stick my nose here

The hole Palestine/Israel thing is so messed up.
I call it BATTLE OVER JERUSALEM, or can somebody imagine Israel state without Jerusalem ?
Nationalism is a good tool to control peoples.

What do I want ?
I want to see a Jew and Muslim laughing and playing backgammon in some cafe at Jerusalem before they go to make their prayers

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(HUGE illusion some may say)
Free city of Jerusalem where everybody can serve the God in the way that he feels to suit him. The Spiritual Capitol of the world.
Welcome all to the "holy city". (I personally think that there is no holy places in the world because the hole world is holy)

What I want is that Palestines can walk where ever he wants in hes former land rather than been sacked in ghettos.
So what I want is new leaders in both sides, some ones who are willing to give some too and not only to take.
Obviously this is not gonna happen soon.

Peace, Moose

 

For it's not a impossibility:

What do I want ?
I want to see a Jew and Muslim laughing and playing backgammon in some cafe at Jerusalem before they go to make their prayers (HUGE illusion some may say)


In order to be peace in the region, one thing has to be gotten rid of. The notions of a Israeli-Palestinian state, nationalism is what is separating them. I would imagine most Israeli's and Pals. Just want to live normal lives. They cannot live these normal lives when walls are being built and suicide bombers are killing. There has to be on both sides recognition that both are there to stay, and accept them. Merge the two states, initially under UN ruler ship, and then give them a joint Jewish-Arab presidency, and Prime minister ship. The problem with all these supposed "peace-plans" is that they are separating them, not bringing them together. One state, neither Arab, nor Jewish, Secular, yet accepting of all 3 major religions, and integration, not separation.

 

Thats the easiest scapegoat of all -- 'lets merge the two and pretend that it will work.'

Unfortunately it won't, which is exactly why they refuse to waste any energy whatsoever on the notion that its even possible. You cannot merge two cultures of people/chemicals which contradict eachother and expect anything other than a volatile solution to emerge. I am *not* a nationalist, but as a realist I can tell you that its not something we can wish away with imaginary peace plans that don't take into account social dynamics or other important factors.

 

So your solution is further seperation, creating more hatred? Jews and Muslims lived in more peaceful circustances before the European jewry who came to the Levant to escape the Anti-Semitism that was prevelant in the Christian west. This already has existed, this peace.

You cannot merge two cultures of people/chemicals which contradict eachother and expect anything other than a volatile solution to emerge.

Only extremists contradict each other.

I am *not* a nationalist,

Do you believe in the state of Israel...if so then your a nationalist.

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I know how convenient it is to exxagerate what I say into something absurd, but that will not work. We no longer live in a world where conditions are right for widespread peaceful circumstances between Israeli's and Arabs (not neceessarily Jews and Muslims.) As a realist, I said, it's impossible for me to have expectations of an ideal situation when the two opposing beliefs of zionism and free social drifting come into contact with eachother. Excuse the chemistry, but um..the ideal gas law does not work because the world isn't ideal. There are factors which you aren't taking into accout.

How untrue. Extremists usally have more in common with eachother than those people who just can't seem to decide. As a matter of fact, bert said that the problem with the world is that the right people are so full of doubts while the wrong are so sure of themselves and their ideals. See where I'm getting at?

This is a grey area..because I believe that Jews need a refuge. A central collective or kibbutz where we protect one another and defend the interests of the Jewish people *everywhere*. If something like the holocaust where to happen to the Jews again, the IDF would fight to the death. In a sense, Israel is a response to the passivity of apathy of nationalism to human rights.

As Israel becomes more of a nationalist entity(as the resident Jews become more languid), it becomes less of a Jewish one (since Judaism naturally contradicts nationalism), and so your argument would not apply to me.

 

False Premise

said, it's impossible for me to have expectations of an ideal situation when the two opposing beliefs of zionism and free social drifting come into contact with eachother.

If there is one state Zionism would cease to exist. Thus the response was esssentially worthless.

How untrue. Extremists usally have more in common than those people who just can't seem to decide.

So your telling me a Likuid (sp) and a Hamas would have more in common then two avergae people just living?

This is a grey area..because I believe that Jews need a refuge.

Why then the Levent?

As Israel becomes more of a nationalist entity(as the resident Jews become more languid), it becomes less of a Jewish one (since Judaism naturally contradicts nationalism), and so your argument would not apply to me.

Israel today exists because of nationalism, not because of any other reason. Israel's reason d'etre is nationalistic at heart, not religious.

 

how about merging India and Pakistan?
what was the reason for Pakistan's creation?

there are many parallels, as i understand.
there were also population transfers on both sides, just as was suggested with Israel and Trans-Jordan

Israel today exists because of nationalism, not because of any other reason.
it is not, in my opinion, the place of a non-Jew to downplay the Holocaust's significance.
that's, in essence, what you're doing... completely ignorining it as if it never happened.

it's like the White Man telling Blacks or Indians "what are you whining about? nobody's going to start lynching you again, or steal your rights. in fact, why don't you start paying taxes? (to the Indians)"

 

how about merging India and Pakistan?
what was the reason for Pakistan's creation?


I've asked that same question before... What was the reason for India's creation? Both states are faux, and made out of a imperialistic adventure. But if you were to look demographically at both states, they have already achieved what Israel and Palestine could be.

there were also population transfers on both sides, just as was suggested with Israel and Trans-Jordan

Problem... you see in "India" these were original inhabitants. Let me put it like this. Would you see the logic in population transfers for the immigrant Brits in Bombay so all the Indians have to move to another country? Why the immigrants should be allowed what is/was Indian lands?

 

they have already achieved what Israel and Palestine could be
which is 2 separate independant flourishing states, correct?

although India still has many Muslims (not just in Kashmir...which btw is something that Israel might look like in 40 years... freaky)

 

Referring to edit:

it is not, in my opinion, the place of a non-Jew to downplay the Holocaust's significance.
that's, in essence, what you're doing... completely ignorining it as if it never happened

No I am not, what I am doing is showing that Jews cannot have a state unless they go to a area in which there little indigenous people's. I will go so far as to say that the American countries are in the same boat as Israel. But in Israel's case the land will be Arab demographically. Why not merge? The only reason... nationalism. And why the Levant when Uganda, Argentina, etc were on the table? You should have gotten Berlin as Israel.

 

which is 2 separate independant flourishing states, correct?

Incorrect, look at a demographic map of India and you tell me.

 

little indigenous people's
UN's ruling re "palestinian refugees" in '48 was that anyone who immigrated to palestine, and lived there for 2 years, and then left/kicked out, would be classified as a refugee.

so, i don't know how many of those refugees were indiginous. apparently most were not. at any case, statistics are conflicting.

and as far as population growth rates...that's the prime reason why we need to separate. let them have their own piece of land and grow as much as they want there. there needs to be a Jewish state.

why the Levant when Uganda, Argentina, etc were on the table?
for religious reasons. all the holy sites are there. there were Jewish communities there for centuries. and Hebron, the Jewish presence there was for continuous since the Biblical days. the only time there were no Jews there was from 1948-1967 when Trans-Jordan conquered, occupied, and annexed Judea and Samaria, kicking out the Jewish indigenous population in the process. (and then, since they had both sides of Jordan river, they renamed themselves to Jordan)

what the hell are Jews gonna do in Uganda? the land has nothing to do with them

 

Re: which is 2 separate independant flourishing states, correct?

well let's see. Pakistan is almost completely Muslim, correct? so it got its wishes.
those Muslims who decided to stay in India were allowed to.

 

So it slips. The real reason you shoot for *one state* is not so much to acheive peace as it to destroy zionism which you falsely see as the cause of unrest. Forgetting of course, that all 4 or so wars were initiatted by Arabs with the same intent. Incidentally that was Hitlers philosophy...one fuhrer, one reich, one nation (or something like that?)

The problem is that there will never exist one homogenous nation or culture as you so disgustingly (or maybe with good intent,) would want to see. And even if there was, the people would find ways to divide themselves into other nations and dominate over their neighbors. Could you think of any other problems associated with such unreasonably high expectations?

As bad an example as that is (what with the generalizations that likud is a terrorist party and all..) yes. And only yes to the extent of the quality of your example since you're exxagerating again. Given that the two people just living are uncertain of the way that they live, then yes. Otherwise no, since we'd be generalizing. Street people can some seriously extreme tendancdies in my experiences(ie *apathy*

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).

I think thats a question you have to figure out for yourself.

No. I disagree. What I think you're trying to get at is the idea that judaism as a whole is one nation. And even then, its still an innacurate interpretation. Why else the diaspora? Israel is more of a connection or nexus between the Jewish people than anything else, which is something I think a lot of people fail to realize.

Exactly. As a Jew, I can't have the pleasure of being so apathetic and seeing the world as one homogenous wad of peace and holding hands (ie Palistraelistine). In the modern world, Jews have to be vigilant and aware of the dangers. Its a choice between assimilation into a pot of boring non-individuals who, to relieve boredom will band against the strays and all order...or protecting ourselves from those kinds of temptations. (I know I'm getting on a rant here so..your turn.)

 

I can't tell you how relieved I am by the fact that Uganda wasn't chosen.

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Although Argentina would have been a rad place to settle, you're right, there isn't that much of a connection to South America, probably even less so than Uganda.

 

otheadp

Firstly I do not adovacate the explusion of Jews from the levant, the damage has been done.

so, i don't know how many of those refugees were indiginous. apparently most were not. at any case, statistics are conflicting.

Thus it's not worth water in a leaky pot.

and as far as population growth rates...that's the prime reason why we need to separate. let them have their own piece of land and grow as much as they want there. there needs to be a Jewish state.

I would assert differently, the more you seperate the more violence you have. The more you wall then in the more Warsaw it will get, the more Warsaw, the uprising will eventually happen. Pals. aren't equal in that land, and unless they become equal they will commit more bombings.

for religious reasons. all the holy sites are there. there were Jewish communities there for centuries.

I personally don't disagree with Jews moving to the Levant, by why a state? All you needed was a place to live, why ostracize the local population?

what the hell are Jews gonna do in Uganda? the land has nothing to do with them

Ask Herzl, that was his idea.

well let's see. Pakistan is almost completely Muslim, correct? so it got its wishes.
those Muslims who decided to stay in India were allowed to.

No, no you see I am not comparing Jews and Islam, I am comparing the fallacies Israel's and Palestinians.

 

I can think of a few reasons. For one, it's nice and warm. At the time, it wasn't so heavily populated as Europe. Also, its fairly close to Europe and other Jewish centres, IE morocco, Tunisia. Had some really nice lakes, and at the time would have seemed like an ideal place to start a settlement. Especially since it had a good amount of natural resources to work off of.

Argentina counts for many of the same reasons too.