A excerpt from my ISU! 11/24/03 - Complete ISU Added!

Discussion in 'World Events' started by nico, Nov 22, 2003.

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Who is the true national owners of the Levant?

  1. Israeli's (Zionists)

    7 vote(s)
    46.7%
  2. Palestinians (Arabs)

    8 vote(s)
    53.3%
  1. nico Banned Banned

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    The real reason you shoot for *one state* is not so much to acheive peace as it to destroy zionism which you falsely see as the cause of unrest.

    To destroy nationalism, both forms are faux nationalism at best. If you want to believe in a lie go ahead.

    Forgetting of course, that all 4 or so wars were initiatted by Arabs with the same intent. Incidentally that was Hitlers philosophy...one fuhrer, one reich, one nation (or something like that?)


    4 wars? I don't think so, 1948 (Arabs), 1956 (Israeli's), 1967 (Israeli's), 1973 (Arabs). Seems even to me... the intent of 1973 was to regain the lands stolen by Israel in 1967... that invasion was a justified one.


    The problem is that there will never exist one homogenous nation or culture as you so disgustingly (or maybe with good intent,) would want to see.

    Israel today is not homogenous as you assert, I know that there are cultural differences. But then using this logic Toronto should be a shooting mecca, seeming we have the most cultures in one place.


    I think thats a question you have to figure out for yourself.

    Religious arguments do not apply, again why the Levant?

    What I think you're trying to get at is the idea that judaism as a whole is one nation. And even then, its still an innacurate interpretation.

    Actually Judaism is not applicable here.

    As a Jew

    Watch it:

    Its a choice between assimilation into a pot of boring non-individuals who, to relieve boredom will band against the strays and all order...or protecting ourselves from those kinds of temptations. (I know I'm getting on a rant here so..your turn.)

    Assimilation has been achieved by many Jews in the US, look at Hollywood for example, many Jews there you would have never thought. Judaism is a belief, and the belief tell Jews to live in exile, and to respect the country that are holding them. If Israel was supposed to stop anti-semitism... it's failed.
     
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  3. otheadp Banned Banned

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    omg.. this is so funny

    Watch it:


    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    . “A Jew is one who remains faithful to the laws of the Jewish religion, that is, the Holy Torah and its commandments.”

    .........
    and the belief tell Jews to live in exile
    who's belief. your belief? oh, i'm sorry..Neturei Karta belief.
    what about the belief that homosexuality is an abomination against God? and that women shouldn't be rabbis and wear kippa's?
    cause some Jews changed these rules. are they traitors too, nico? have they abandoned Judaism?

    as i said in the other forum, this logic of yours is the same as bin-Laden's logic.
    his thinks that any form of liberalism is a sign of infidelity.
    apparently, you conveniently believe the same.

    I can't tell you how relieved I am by the fact that Uganda wasn't chosen

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    man, i almost fell off the chair from laughter

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    No, no you see I am not comparing Jews and Islam, I am comparing the fallacies Israel's and Palestinians.
    the thing is, Israel, as India, let the minorities stay.. and they have full rights as citizens.
    btw, it's a fallacy to call "palestinians" a people.
    if your definition of them is "original habitants of palestine" you are wrong.
     
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  5. nico Banned Banned

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    as i said in the other forum, this logic of yours is the same as bin-Laden's logic.
    his thinks that any form of liberalism is a sign of infidelity.
    apparently, you conveniently believe the same.


    Again you are trying here to refute the scriptures of G-d, and you are again appealing to popularity here. Just because most "Jews" believe that Israel is a religious state dosen't mean it is.

    “(Talmud Tractate Ksubos p. 111a). To violate the oaths is not only a sin, it is a heresy because it is against the fundamentals of our Belief. Only through complete repentance will the Almighty alone, without any human effort or intervention, redeem us from exile.
    This will be after G-d will send the prophet Elijah and Moshiach who will induce all Jews to complete repentance. At that time there will be universal peace”


    the thing is, Israel, as India, let the minorities stay.. and they have full rights as citizens.

    I don't think expelling 750,000 Arabs from their land is as you say "stay, and equal".

    btw, it's a fallacy to call "palestinians" a people.


    As is Israeli's...I accept both are nothing more then a mechinationization of Imperialism .

    if your definition of them is "original habitants of palestine" you are wrong.

    Arabs are, Palestine is indeed the British name for the territory. But Arabs are the inhbaitants of that land before Zionist's came. You cannot tell me in any sense of seriousness that a state with a demographic minority (born on that land) is still that nations land. Otherwise Toronto shouldn't be part of Canada.
     
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  7. Xerxes asdfghjkl Valued Senior Member

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    Umm..you think you can destroy nationalism? If you want to believe in a lie go ahead.

    I'm trying to keep myself from laughing. But this is beyond pathetic. You and I both know the truth and how much of a hindrance it has been to Arab supporters:

    4 wars? I don't think so, 1948 (Ara...n 1967... that invasion was a justified one.
    Fearing these actions to be signs of an imminent Egyptian invasion, Israel rapidly mobilized its reserves.

    --> Pre-emptivive strike against an a new, ambitious, and miscalculating Egyptian government. Not the first...

    And the 1967 war doesn't even deserve a link. We all know that the war had begun, initiated by the Arabs, long before Israel had went on its pre-emptitive strike. I learned this from wrestling: To wait for your enemy to engage you while he prepares is SUICIDE. You will almost certainly loose if it comes to that. You have to attack, and continue attacking relentlessly till the enemy surrenders..until next match. In the past, some of my opponents would have me seriously injured if I gave them the chance. (No kidding.) I don't let it come to that.

    The major flaw of your argument, nico, is that you refuse to accept facts when they disagree with you. But sometimes, accepting them is necessary to building up credibility. Its why I think your theory of peace is so un-credible. Its just not based on facts.



    True. I never asserted that Israel was homogenous. Thats was an assumption on your part. What I will say about Toronto is this: While it does have its major problems(ie gang violence, racial hatred, intolerance), the individuality and multicultural presences make it one of the best cities on earth. Its a more realistic peace -- the imperfect kind.

    If you haven't figured this out then try. I know it would be easy to paint me into a corner if you could get me to walk into a tiny room of such a big house (if ya get the metaphor..) but it goes deeper than you think, nico.

    How so? Judiasm is the most important factor, IMO. It depends on your interpretation (which you seem unwilling to bend for the convenience of argument.)

    Israel is not meant to stop anti-semitism. We know it to be one of the few certainties of life. Instead it is meant as a Masada, a fortress for the Jews that we all lobby behind. The problem with the holocaust was that Jewish bankers, hollywood producers and anybody else with influence failed to lobby sufficiently behind their governments to stop it in time. As soon as we can't trust others nations to stand behind us, the only people left that we can trust is ourselves. Thats where Israel comes in. Again, I don't have the luxury of being apathetic.
     
  8. Xerxes asdfghjkl Valued Senior Member

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    Your logic is seriously flawed because I can, and I am telling you in all seriousness that the land belongs to Israel. Like Abraham, we're as fair as possible about it, but we do not cede to the unreasonable demands of the international community when we haven't been able to trust them in the past.

    And whos to say that Toronto has to be a part of Canada anyways? The fact, plain and simple, is that the only reason they are is because they want to be. By referendum, they could legally seperate, and the government would have no choice but to be cool with it (no matter how unlikely such a scenario is.)
     
  9. nico Banned Banned

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    Umm..you think you can destroy nationalism?

    No, but I think I could create a new one. Both Zionism and Pals. nationalism is faux.

    --> Pre-emptivive strike against an a new, ambitious, and miscalculating Egyptian government. Not the first...

    1956 was a pre-emptive, imperialistic action by Israel, also a new and mis-calculating government. 1967, I don't disagree with the war itself, I disagree with the imperial growth spurt it had created. You know illegally seizing lands that are still not legally part of Israel.

    the individuality and multicultural presences make it one of the best cities on earth. Its a more realistic peace -- the imperfect kind.


    Your logic forces me to separate parts of Toronto, and even wall certain parts of it... for what? None of you addressed this issue:

    If you haven't figured this out then try. I know it would be easy to paint me into a corner if you could get me to walk into a tiny room of such a big house (if ya get the metaphor..) but it goes deeper than you think, nico.


    Me no thinks so.

    Israel is not meant to stop anti-semitism.

    I suggest you read Herzl's Der Judenstaat:

    Come again?

    The problem with the holocaust was that Jewish bankers, hollywood producers and anybody else with influence failed to lobby sufficiently behind their governments to stop it in time.

    Nah I would say, purposeful abandonment.
     
  10. nico Banned Banned

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    3,122
    and I am telling you in all seriousness that the land belongs to Israel.

    “(Talmud Tractate Ksubos p. 111a). To violate the oaths is not only a sin, it is a heresy because it is against the fundamentals of our Belief. Only through complete repentance will the Almighty alone, without any human effort or intervention, redeem us from exile.
    This will be after G-d will send the prophet Elijah and Moshiach who will induce all Jews to complete repentance. At that time there will be universal peace”


    But not now... but not now...

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  11. otheadp Banned Banned

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    nico.. what's up with all that quoting from holy scriptures?
    you're assimilating bin-Laden's tactics.

    ...and the funny thing is, you really are.
     
  12. Xerxes asdfghjkl Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,830
    Nico,

    I think what Herzl was aiming at was a refuge for Jews. A place where they could get away such hatred if they ever needed to. Herzl knew as well as you or I that anti-semetism cannot be fully eliminated. But that doesn't mean we have to just sit on the ground and take it.

    Anyways, I can see this debate isn't getting anywhere with you. We've crossed the border into futility and headbashing. I have some schoolwork to finish. Maybe I'll get back to this later.
     
  13. Xerxes asdfghjkl Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,830
    Or apathy -- the easier route -- which you are suffering from. I don't think that man speaks for all foreign Jews of time.
     
  14. nico Banned Banned

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    nico.. what's up with all that quoting from holy scriptures?

    Do you now deny that Israel is not holy? Otherwise you want to reject G-d's commandment to the Jewish people?

    I think what Herzl was aiming at was a refuge for Jews

    Obviously the Levant is a no go zone... yet you still go?

    A place where they could get away such hatred if they ever needed to. Herzl knew as well as you or I that anti-semetism cannot be fully eliminated. But that doesn't mean we have to just sit on the ground and take it.


    This is the non-Jewish communities problem, we have treated you unfairly, but to treat the Arabs the same way we treated you is not exactly fair now is it?

    Or apathy -- the easier route -- which you are suffering from. I don't think that man speaks for all foreign Jews of time.

    That is not apathy... that is callousness, he knew the situation in Germany and did nothing let me quote another great Zionist:

    "One Cow in Palestine is worth more than all the Jews in Poland"....Izaak Greenbaum

    That doesn’t sound like apathy my friend that sounds like Machiavellian callousness.
     
  15. 15ofthe19 35 year old virgin Registered Senior Member

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    1,588
    Funny Stuff Nico

    Reading this thread and seeing your arguments get completely dismantled at every turn would be funny if it weren't overshadowed by the disgusting dis-information and bias you rely on to further your assaults on Israels' right to exist. For someone who seems to be pretty well read about some topics you are astonishingly ignorant of the history of the Israeli-Arab conflict. I can only imagine that you would attempt to back up your claims by linking to some typical anti-semitic website with the usual attempts at revisionist history writings.

    When you're pushing your agenda it's probably very easy to forget about all of the events that eventually led to the creation of the Jewish state. It's obvious that you're not a big fan of history books, but let me suggest something that wont require you to waste anytime reading about the death camps. Visit a burn ward in Tel-Aviv or a holocaust museum like Auschwitz and then come back here and tell me the jews don't deserve a sanctuary.
     
  16. nico Banned Banned

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    3,122
    15ofthe19

    Reading this thread and seeing your arguments get completely dismantled at every turn would be funny if it weren't overshadowed by the disgusting dis-information and bias you rely on to further your assaults on Israels' right to exist. For someone who seems to be pretty well read about some topics you are astonishingly ignorant of the history of the Israeli-Arab conflict. I can only imagine that you would attempt to back up your claims by linking to some typical anti-semitic website with the usual attempts at revisionist history writings.


    Problems with the above quote:

    - provided no info to support assertions.
    - ad homs.
    - appeal to emotions
    - source refutations

    If you can please, try to concern yourself with the sand box.
     
  17. nico Banned Banned

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    My ISU!

    The twentieth century has been racked by the evolution of new states worldwide. There have been two major waves of nationalism in the century. The first real wave was in the time period from 1913 to 1920, (first Balkan war – Treaty of Versailles), and the second major wave being from 1947- 1980 (De-colonization, India - Zimbabwe). But all these states were colonized, but in the case of Israel, it was the colonizer who got the independence. The ideology that provided this was Zionism. Theodore Herzl as been credited with the inception of the modern Zionist ideology. The modern Israel state has some flaws in her reason d’etre, mainly being the idea of it being a so called promised land. What I will discuss is the Zionism’s impact on modern nationalism, its impact on the people it has affected, the fallacious nature of its religious arguments, Communisms refutation of the Zionist movement, what is a Jew, and many more. In essence Zionism is not representative of the Jewish cause.
    Zionism is the political philosophy primary concerned with the establishment of a Jewish state, established by Theodore Herzl in his book Der Judenstaat (The Jewish State). Modernity was devised by the anti-philosopher Nietzsche this is a description of his idea of Modernity; “ The historical period in the ninetieth – and twentieth – century nation states and a corresponding set of cultural conditions and beliefs dominated by Enlightenment ideals…” (Soccio p.566), Post Modernism was defined by the critique of modernism, Chronologically I would put Modernity (Modernism) from 1792-1945. Nationalism is the belief in one’s nation, and devotion to that state according to dictionary.com:

    “na•tion•al•ism n.
    1. Devotion to the interests or culture of one's nation.
    2. The belief that nations will benefit from acting independently rather than collectively, emphasizing national rather than international goals.
    3. Aspirations for national independence in a country under foreign domination.”

    Nationalism separates people from each other by creating borders, and governments that best suited to a certain people’s beliefs, or ethnicity. Nationalism can trace its history to the 30 years war in Germany, and was truly implemented (in modern form) with the revolutions in the Americas (1776-1800’s) and in France in the 1790’s. The People Zionism has impacted have been the Palestinian peoples, either Muslim, Christian, or Jewish, the Palestinian people are really Arabs who have been defined as Palestinians by nationalists. Fallaciousness is an argument that is based on false pretenses, it could be a logical fallacy or just evidently wrong. A religious argument in Zionism is that Israel is the Promised Land by G-d, but that is an argument that will be shown to be inept. Communism is the political and economic philosophy done by another atheist Karl Marx. He believed in assimilation (something Herzl strongly suggested against), but assimilation of all of the world’s society. Solution is how to resolve the current Zionist – Arab nationalist conflict in the Levant. The Levant is a largely neutral term to discuss the region that includes Israel or Palestine. Zionist entity is the nationalist Israeli state. A Jew is someone who is religiously connected with the Jewish faith. “A Jew is one who remains faithful to the laws of the Jewish religion, that is, the Holy Torah and its commandments.” (http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/index.html)
    Zionism has for the past 105 years has created a philosophical dilemma in the sense that it has questioned everything that pertains to the “Jewish Question.” (herzl p.75) Initially we see that Herzl proclaims that being Jewish is not being religious but being part of a distinctive race of people, “Jew-baiting has merely stripped off our weaklings; the strong among us were invariably true to their race when persecution broke out against them.”(Herzl p.76) But being Jewish is not being part of a distinctive race of people. It is impossibility for a Jewish person to be part of a Jewish race. The Jewish people originated from being a tribe which lived in the ancient area then known as Canaan. They left Canaan due to a drought, and fled into Egypt. These then become Hebrews; the Hebrew of ancient times was not the European Jew [Ashkenazim] that we know of today. They were dark skinned people’s who were enslaved by the Egyptians. These people gained their distinctiveness through the monotheistic belief in G-d. These people were summarily then expelled from Egypt with their leader Moses into the now Promised Land, in which their G-d gave them. That was over 3500 years ago. This cannot logically be translated into today. The Jewish people don’t exist; they have a common heritage to the Hebrews of the ancients but in no way are Hebrews themselves. Herzl makes a mistake when he asserts this, “It might more reasonably be objected that I am giving a handle to anti-Semitism when I say we are a people--one people; that I am hindering the assimilation of Jews where it is about to be consummated…” (Herzl p.79) The Jews of today are assimilated into our culture. The average Ashkenazim Jew cannot be chosen out of a line out of other European people. They are not distinctive apart from their heritage. Anti-Semitism is a mistake unto itself. The Anti-Semitic argument pertains to the rhetorical use of the word Semitic. Jews today have little Hebrew blood; invariably there are mixes along the way in which the Jew has lost that connection with the Ancient Hebrew There are many Jews in this world, Chinese, Ethiopian, Arabic, German, Latin, Slav, Turkic, Malay all living in different places in our world. Can all these people be Hebrew? The answer is an obvious no. The Zionist ideology is one that is based on the Eurocentric view of the Jewish people.
    The Next argument against Herzl’s Zionism is the religious aspect of it. Theodore put as such; “And thus it must be done. For we feel our historic affinity only through the faith of our fathers as we have long ago absorbed the languages of different nations to an ineradicable degree.” (Herzl p.126 ) Herzl must have missed the boat on this one, the Jews were kicked out the land of Zion by G-d, and G-d punished them for disobeying him. The Jews according to their own texts are not supposed to go back to the land of Zion until the messianic era. Thus can we honestly say with any sincerity that the Israel of today is the Promised Land? The use of the Star of David is obviously now mis-used, the simple reasoning behind it, is that it is blasphemous to use a religious symbol to symbolize a sac-religious state. Too many religious Jews, the issue of Israel’s existence is a serious problem in which the future of Judaism lays at stake as evidenced by this statement made by Satmar Grand Rebbe Joel Teitelbaum; “…and there is no doubt in my mind that we would already be in the period after the Messiah's arrival if not for this tzureh [Zionism] prevalent in the world…” (www.jewsnotzionists.org) For the religious Jews in the world the implications of the Zionist state have a fear reaching, even altering effect on their religious goals.
    The Next argument I will present is the problem with Zionist nationalism. The Israeli of today does not trace any history back to ancient times, [as Herzl proclaimed]. About Nationalism Herzl asserted this; “We are one people--our enemies have made us one without our consent, as repeatedly happens in history. Distress binds us together, and, thus united, we suddenly discover our strength. Yes, we are strong enough to form a State, and, indeed, a model State. We possess all human and material resources necessary for the purpose.” (Herzl p.92) The obvious fallacious nature of that argument is not hard to crack. The Jewish people don’t exist, so what bond if not religion is he referring to, surely not the faux Jewish race. The forming of a state is un-natural unto itself. According to communist doctrine [who was also made by a Jew, turned gentile] Karl Marx. His solution to this problem [not limited to Jews, but must have been a major impetus] was to accept that we are one people in this world. Genetically he is not incorrect we all share the basic human genetic code. We forcibly separate ourselves in notions of race, clan, and kinship. “Marxists have frequently argued that the survival of the Jewish collectivity- whether in a purely religious, a national, or state form – is politically reactionary.”(Wistrich, P.1) Which Herzl has proven to be correct, the ideology of Zionism is based on the reaction to anti-Semitism, and it’s not a real movement away from anti-Semitism, it’s only perceived as such. The Marxist view is that we all share the common humanity, that nationalism separates us and that allows capitalism to exploit us. Separation means weakness for the masses so the bourgeoisie, can exploit us. This is not a factor that affects the state of Israel alone today, but rather it is a world wide phenomenon. The abolition of that nation state is essential for the communist ideology to succeed. According to a summary of Otto Bauer [Marxist] theories, this was said of Jewish nationalism;

    “As an extra-territorial nation without a common territory, a common language, or culture, the Jews were particularly susceptible to those who processes of modern capitalism which were breaking down the barriers between nations and brining about their assimilation and inter-penetration. Because they were a pariah nation, the Jews were forced gradually to adopt the culture, habits, and customs of the surrounding nations in whose midst they lived”. (Wistrich, P.5)

    The explanation of this is simple, that the Jewish people were basically not the same, they are not homogeneous. This would prove that the basic assumption of nationalism cannot be applied to Jewish nationalism. Nationalism is the basic assumption that homogeneity must exist, and since the religious homogeneity doesn’t apply what does?
    The Jewish people are a strong a unified people of the world. Who have been prosecuted against since they were kicked out of their ancestral homeland. Jews today constitute approximately 14 million persons on the planet. They have many religious and cultural sects that unify into one cohesive cultural unit, that support the Jewish state of Israel. The Jewish people do exist as a race because they share a genetic predisposition to our Hebrew ancestors. The Jewish people have always had a longing to go back to their ancestral homeland. The Jewish people have tried to go back to Israel. It was claimed that Herzl’s ideology was based on a Euro-centric view on the Jewish Question. But today’s Israel represents all of the Jewish people’s of the world. We have many cultural sects in Israel; we have accepted not only European Jewry but also Ethiopian and Mediterranean Jews as well. But they all share an ancestral connection with the Hebrews of the ancients. The Jewish people are one because they share one history.
    As a Zionist Herzl clearly stated that he believed that religion was an integral part of the Jewish migration back to Israel. “The Jews have dreamt this kingly dream all through the long nights of their history.'Next year in Jerusalem' is our old phrase. It is now a question of showing that the dream can be converted into a living reality.” (Herzl p.82) As one can clearly see Herzl has said that Jews have since the beginning of the Diaspora been trying to go back to their ancient homeland. The Torah, [Old Testament] clearly states that the Jews have a promised land, promised by g-d.

    Genesis 12:3 "And I will bless them that bless thee and curse him that curseth thee; and in thee shall all nations of the earth be blessed.’ Point: God has promised to bless the man or nation that blesses the Chosen People. History has proven beyond reasonable doubt that the nations that have blessed the Jewish people have had the blessing of God; the nations that have cursed the Jewish people have experienced the curse of God.” (http://jhm.org/support-israel.asp).

    Not only do Christians support Israel’s existence, but so does the sacred scriptures of G-d. The ultra-right wing factions of the Jewish spectrum obviously have no argument against this overt assertion by G-d that the Jewish people are allowed to go back, and commanded by G-d to go back.
    The next argument is about Nationalism, but it should also be discussing the Anti-Semitism that is prevalent throughout the world against the Jewish peoples. The Jewish people did not come to a land and colonized it as you would assert. They came to a land that was devoid of a population, it was a largely empty land, and the Jewish settlers transformed the land from desert to fertile valleys. Herzl tried as he indicates in this quote, he wants to rid the world of Anti-Semitism; “But the Jews, once settled in their own State, would probably have no more enemies” (Herzl p.153) The greatest problem facing the Jewish people is that they are not a nation, they are like parasites residing in others lands. This creates Anti-Semitism, which would be abolished with the creation of the Jewish state. As Herzl states; “In the meantime, Jews in a thousand different places would suffer insults, mortifications, abuse, blows, depredation, and death. No; if we only begin to carry out the plans, Anti-Semitism would stop at once and for ever.” (Herzl p.156). Also if want to question Jewish nationalism you would have to question nationalism worldwide. Most people in this world have given up on the failed communist experiments. One would simply refer to the failed Communist states such as the USSR, and the Eastern Europe. They were not able to abolish nationalism, it is impossible to abolish what defines us. We are homogenous in the sense we all share the same religion, ancestry, and history. How can one person who knows the history of the Jewish people would not want to give them their just deserves. The holocaust was a turning point in world history and the Jewish people deserved that land.


    The argument presented above a common argument that fails to objectively look at the reality of the Jewish cause. First off the assertion that Jews of the world are all in support of the Israeli state is a false one at best. Here are just some quotes from those, Zionist loving Jews; “[Zionists] want a state in order to make Jews into heretics .Rabbi C. Soloveichik …The Zionists aren't taking Jews away from Judaism in order to have a State, THEY NEED A STATE IN ORDER TO TAKE JEWS AWAY FROM JUDAISM" Rabbi Chaim Soloveitchik”(http://www.jewsnotzionists.org/rabbonim.html). Obviously the Zionist argument of a consensus on a “Jewish” people is a fallacious assertion at best. As for the genetic predisposition argument that is also faulty at best, since Jews are a race as he asserted. I could essentially include all 14 million Jews, from the Chinese to the Ethiopian. Here is why I could be genetically being called a Jew as well. I was debating with a Zionist once over this very subject. He told me that in the Inquisition in Spain Jews were killed, or forced to convert to Christianity. This to me offered an explanation to why I [according to Herzl] could be a member of the Jewish race. My ancestors are from the Iberian Peninsula, I could very well be a Jew. If my ancestors were forced to convert to Christianity, that shouldn’t negate the fact that I am racial a Jew. Yet no Jew would consider me Jewish… why? Because being Jewish is not racial, it’s cultural. It has a lineage not based on not DNA but on religious faith. Is this the Race that Theodore Herzl was talking about, wouldn’t I essentially be able to claim Zion for myself? The racial Jew has the problem in this sense; if being Jewish were racial then essentially we would have to ignore the obvious differences between his appearance and those of other Jews who live outside of Europe.
    The Jewish people have indeed been longing to go back to their Promised Land for a long time now. But the problem that the Zionist argument is when. Here is when the Jew is allowed to go back to Zion; “(Talmud Tractate Ksubos p. 111a). To violate the oaths is not only a sin, it is a heresy because it is against the fundamentals of our Belief. Only through complete repentance will the Almighty alone, without any human effort or intervention, redeem us from exile.
    This will be after G-d will send the prophet Elijah and Moshiach who will induce all Jews to complete repentance. At that time there will be universal peace” (http://middleeastinfo.org/forum598).
    Even according to the Christian bible there is a particularly interesting passage; “Revelation 2
    9I know your afflictions and your poverty-yet you are rich! I know the slander of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan.”(Bible)
    If true that would clearly be a shot at Zionism, and the fact that the Jew should beware of the future of their “satanic” synagogue. The Zionists are obviously not Jewish because Zionism is an atheistic movement that has to reject the Torah’s teachings, yet say they are a Jewish movement. Even Herzl has indicated a want to get rid of the religious aspect; “The theories of a divine institution, or of superior power, or of a contract, and the patriarchal and patrimonial theories do not accord with modern views.” (Herzl p.137). Thus here Herzl basically is saying not to depend on the theories of a G-d. Also one of your arguments is that most Jews and Christians agree with that assertion. That in no way means it is correct, it is an appeal to popularity, thus meaning what is believed by the many is not a fact. That in his modernist view that the religious argument is summarily dismissed.
    This goes into a difficult tangent for many because of the ethics involved. Here Herzl makes an important assertion; “As a matter of fact, a mixture of human and superhuman goes to the making of a State” (Herzl) Super humanism is a theory applied by the Nazi’s in their ideology of Aryanism. Herzl and Zionism like Nazism, has emphasized the “ancient” connection to the past with the extent people’s known as the Aryan’s and Hebrews. Both in 20th century don’t exist, yet we have assertions like this about the superior Hebrew;
    “The Gush Emunim and other Jewish fundamentalist sects described by Shahak and Mezvinsky are thus part of a long mainstream Jewish tradition which considers Jews and non-Jews completely different species, with Jews absolutely superior to non-Jews and subject to a radically different moral code…
    Many Jews, especially religious Jews today in Israel and their supporters abroad, continue to adhere to traditional Jewish ethics that other Jews would like to ignore or explain away. For example, Rabbi Yitzhak Ginzburg of Joseph’s Tomb in Nablus/Shechem, after several of his students were remanded on suspicion of murdering a teenage Arab girl: “Jewish blood is not the same as the blood of a goy.” Rabbi Ido Elba: “According to the Torah, we are in a situation of pikuah nefesh (saving a life) in time of war, and in such a situation one may kill any Gentile.” Rabbi Yisrael Ariel writes in 1982 that “Beirut is part of the Land of Israel. [This is a reference to the boundaries of Israel as stated in the Covenant between God and Abraham in Genesis 15: 18–20 and Joshua 1 3–4]…our leaders should have entered Lebanon and Beirut without hesitation, and killed every single one of them. Not a memory should have remained.” It is usually yeshiva students who chant “Death to the Arabs” on CNN.


    Jews are not, and cannot be a normal people. The eternal uniqueness of the Jews is the result of the Covenant made between God and the Jewish people at Mount Sinai…. The implication is that the transcendent imperatives for Jews effectively nullify moral laws that bind the behavior of normal nations…argues that the divine commandments to the Jewish people “transcend the human notions of national rights.” He explains that while God requires other nations to abide by abstract codes of justice and righteousness, such laws do not apply to Jews.20” (http://theoccidentalquarterly.com/vol3no2/km-understanding.html),


    In this rather extensive quote a radical yet sizable belief in Jewish superiority. Very much like Nietzsche’s Ubermensch. Nazi Aryanism is not much different, they believed in a pseudo-connection with a non-existent race as well. The ancient Aryans who imposed the caste system on the darker people’s of India, and the Aryan Superman. To these people the Hebrew and the Aryan is not the human that we are, no these are beyond human, and these are the superior to all man. This would explain to a large extent the general indifference that the Germans had to Jews and Zionists have to the Palestinians. Basically Herzl wanted to get rid of the Yiddish Jew that has been the target of Anti-Semitism in Europe. Zionism had to create the new man, the Goy, basically a man who is not a Religious Jew, but rather (in this instance) a gentile who identifies himself as a Hebrew not a Jew. A new man was needed. Just like in Nazi Germany a new stronger version of the typical German had to be made, one that was not associated with the religions traditions of the past. Thus yes Herzl’s Zionism is very modernist in repressing or even rejecting the traditions of the past, in essence non-religious (atheistic) movement.
    Nationalism is problematic in the sense that what does it really define? I would assert that in order for there to be a nationalist state one has to have the majority of the population living in there the country with the same culture, and most of the inhabitants of that land should be born on that land so that they have some tie to the land. In Israel today only 20.8% of Jews (http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/is.html#People) are born in Israel. That is further subtracted from 80% of Israel being classified as Jewish. Thus out of a population of 6,116,533 (July 2002 est.) 80% or 4.8 million are Jewish, 3.91million (approx) are immigrant Jews, and only 978,000 (approx) are actually born in Israel. With the local Arab populations being born in Israel proper being approx. 1.16 million, add to that the 1.8 million in the West Bank, and 1.2 million in the Gaza Strip you have a total of 4.16 million Arab inhabitants of the land who were born on that land. Also if you were to look at the growth rates of the Arab population in the region (except for Israel proper) the Israeli’s are far behind. Population growth rates:

    Gaza Strip – 3.86% (2003 est.)
    West Bank- 3.3 %( 2003 est.)
    Israel- 1.39% (2003 est.)

    Thus what can we conclude for Israeli nationalism? If you were to average out the Arab population growth you would have an annual rate of 3.58% per annum, and for Israel it may even be less then 1.39% due to 19.9% of the population being Arab. Thus logically Zionists cannot have a claim on a land that is not demographically theirs. [All statistical information provided by the CIA, all number approximations.] The portion that argument asserting the “emptiness” of the Levant prior to Jewish colonization is a false one as well. “The famous early Zionist slogan, “A land without a people for a people without a land”, reflected a conception of Palestine as empty, because not inhabitaed or developed by Europeans. Later, when the existence of the Palestine’s Arab population and it’s opposition to the Zionist project became unmistakenly obvious, most Zionists denied the authenticity of Palestinian Arab nationalism whule asserting a superior Jewish claim to Palestine based on historical precedence, divine promise, urgent need, and/or invested labour.” (Kriger p.1007) Need to say that there was a vibrant Arab population prior to the frist Kibbutz in the 1880’s, and if there were so little people’s in the region, why were there millions of Arabs in 1948? And 750,000 expelled from the Levant? Anti-Semitism has proven to be the impetus to the existence of the Zionist state. Which I would find rather odd, shouldn’t the impetus rather be that Jews should live in the land of G-d rather then being pushed into by Anti-Semitism? Herzl has used Anti-Semitism instead of a causis belli for the Israel state, but rather a convenient way of attracting Jews (mostly European) to go to escape Anti-Semitism. We see Herzl using Anti-Semitism as something to be exploited; “The Governments of all countries scourged by Anti-Semitism will be keenly interested in assisting us to obtain the sovereignty we want…imagine that Governments will, either voluntarily or under pressure from the Anti-Semites, pay certain attention to this scheme, and they may perhaps actually receive it here and there with a sympathy which they will also show to the Society of Jews.” (Herzl p.93) He is using Anti-Semitism as not as a problem but rather a means to achieve the end. According to Jewsagainstzionism.com this is what is said in his [Herzl’s] Diaries; “It is essential that the sufferings of Jews . . . become worse. . . this will assist in realization of our plans. . .I have an excellent idea. . . I shall induce anti-semites to liquidate Jewish wealth. . . The anti-semites will assist us thereby in that they will strengthen the persecution and oppression of Jews. The anti-semites shall be our best friends”. (From his Diary, Part I, pp. 16) … from p. 68 of Part I of his Diary.
    So anti-Semitism, which is a deeply imbedded force in the subconscious mind of the masses, will not harm the Jews. I actually find it to be advantageous to building the Jewish character, education by the masses that will lead to assimilation. This education can only happen through suffering, and the Jews will adapt.” (http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/opposition/cannonfodder.htm).
    Anti-Semitism according to the Zionist political philosophy helps her cause more then any other faucet open to her. The Anti-Semitic argument is now used against anyone who argues against the perceived Jewish state which is Israel. But can Hassidic Jews and other observant Jews also be Anti-Semitic? Meanwhile the atheistic premise of Zionism is not? Herzl even says in this quote that sustains the idea of the Anti-Semites; “We shall give up using those miserable stunted jargons, those Ghetto languages which we still employ, for these were the stealthy tongues of prisoners.” (Herzl p.146). Was this the attitude of a man who wanted to help the Jews? The same man who calls the languages of Yiddish, and Ladino, Ghetto Languages? I think not, this goes back to the neo-Hebrew. About the Pseudo-Communist states of the USSR and Eastern Europe, they used nationalism to further their own causes. In a true communist world there would be no nationalism, thus the assertion that the USSR failed is faux because it never represented the communist ideology correctly, and never really adhered to it. The holocaust was a horrible event in all of human history yes. But lest we forget that Zionists were not free of any guilt. “Ben Gurion informed a meeting of Labor Zionists in Great Britain in 1938: "If I knew that it would be possible to save all the children in Germany by bringing them over to England and only half of them by transporting them to Eretz Israel, then I opt for the second alternative." Ibid., p.149… "One Cow in Palestine is worth more than all the Jews in Poland"....Izaak Greenbaum… "If I am asked, "Could you give from the UJA moneys to rescue Jews, 'I say, NO! and I say again NO!" Izaak Greenbaum -- head of Jewish Agency Rescue Committee, February 18, 1943. Addressed to the Zionist Executive Council.” (http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/holocaust/holocaustpics.htm). Indeed not all Zionists were this complacent, but there is David Ben Gurion the first Prime Minister of Israel… saying such things. In 1934 the Nazi’s minted a coin to celebrate Zionism ; “By 1934 the SS had become the most pro-Zionist element in the Nazi Party. Other Nazis were even calling them “soft” on the Jews. Baron von Mildenstein had returned from his six-month visit to Palestine as an ardent Zionist sympathiser. Now as the head of the Jewish Department of the SS’s Security Service, he started studying Hebrew and collecting Hebrew records; when his former companion and guide, Kurt Tuchler, visited his office in 1934, he was greeted by the strains of familiar Jewish folk tunes. There were maps on the walls showing the rapidly increasing strength of Zionism inside Germany. Von Mildenstein was as good as his word: he not only wrote favourably about what he saw in the Zionist colonies in Palestine; he also persuaded Goebbels to run the report as a massive twelve-part series in his own Der Angriff (The Assault), the leading Nazi propaganda organ (26 September to 9 October 1934). His stay among the Zionists had shown the SS man “the way to curing a centuries-long wound on the body of the world: the Jewish question”. It was really amazing how some good Jewish boden under his feet could enliven the Jew: “The soil has reformed him and his kind in a decade. This new Jew will be a new people.” To commemorate the Baron’s expedition, Goebbels had a medal struck: on one side the Swastika, on the other the Zionist star of David.” (http://www.marxists.de/middleast/brenner/ch07.htm). German Zionism and National Socialism (Nazism) were very much in the same pool by the early 1930’s until the expulsion of the Jews from the Warsaw Ghetto in 1941. You be the judge on this issue.
    Theodore Herzl’s Zionism is one that does not represent the Jewish goals. What we have to understand is that Jewish is religious based, and thus is subject to the laws of G-d. Zionism’s ultimate goal was to rid Jews of this only unifying force to create the new man. The Goy was the end goal of the Zionist experiment, and to make Israel like a state like every other. To rid of the world of Anti-Semitism by essentially getting rid of the Jewish problem at together. The victims of Zionism are Arabs who inhabit what was their land, (and demographically is still theirs). Today we have the other victims being the Hassidic Jews being ignored when they protest the Israeli state’s existence. Another victim is the masse and, elaborate indoctrination of millions into believing that Israel is the Jewish state, the Promised land.

    First and foremost, this in MLA format, so if there are any errors please point then out. Also any other errors, just point them out... well enjoy reading it otherwise. Things in red added on the edit.
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2003
  18. BlueMoose Guest

    Nice work

    I did enjoy, cant wait if anybody dares to challenge your views

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    By the way, been reading somewhere that there was lot of a Jewish money&actions behind Russians revolution at 1917.
    Sounds paradoxal that religious peoples were driving state without religion. Have you been studying those events ?
     
  19. otheadp Banned Banned

    Messages:
    5,853
    i haven't read it yet, nico.

    tell me though, is there anything new in here that you haven't said before? because every point you've made before has been destroyed.... i don't like repeating myself.
    just asking
     
  20. nico Banned Banned

    Messages:
    3,122
    because every point you've made before has been destroyed....

    LOL! That is the most dignified response that deserves.
     
  21. BlueMoose Guest

  22. nico Banned Banned

    Messages:
    3,122
    BlueMoose

    Thank you, that looks very enlightening.
     
  23. 15ofthe19 35 year old virgin Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,588
    So I am curious nicky, did you actually submit this POS in the form we see here? If you did I wonder what sort of grade you got. The sentence fragments alone should prohibit you from getting anything more than a C-.

    Just what is behind your hatred of Zionism anyway?
     

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