A point about God

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by trilli0n1, Dec 1, 1999.

  1. trilli0n1 Registered Member

    Messages:
    19
    Here are a few arguments against the existance of all-powerful god:

    1. If AP God existed he would know his own actions before he did them. Thus he could not change his mind without having made a mistake sometime in the past, and is not perfect. And if he can't change his mind he is not all-powerful. There is a basic contradiction there.

    2. If AP God knows we go to heaven and hell or whatever before we are born then we are destined for either one and there is no free will and everything said in the bible is a lie. You CANT choose what you do, God already has it set out, and your final destination too.

    Thus God can't be all-powerful. Anyone like to share any thoughts on the matter?
     
  2. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  3. FyreStar Faithless since 1980 Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    229
    trillion -

    Just out of curiosity, what makes you - a limited being - able to define the capabilities of a theoretically unlimited being?

    Also, if a god was all powerful, would it not also have the ability to circumvent logical contradictions that limit our abilities?

    FyreStar
     
  4. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  5. Corp.Hudson Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    419
    Who says god can see into the future? God never claims to be perfect, though Jesus (or Joshua, depending on the translation

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    ) makes that claim for him.

    Even if everything we do is predestined, that does not make everything in the bible a lie. If you had any idea of the vast scope of the bible, you would know that. The bible documents mostly history, not how to worship god.
     
  6. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  7. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

    Messages:
    36,614
    trillion ....

    In my humble opinion ....

    1) There is no all-powerful God. Well, let me say that most people I run the idea by have a difficult time accepting that their God also makes the things they find evil in the world. Ergo, God, for them, does not make evil. Therefore all things are not of their God. Convenient, that.

    2) I can only agree with your assessment of Calvinist predestiny.

    One of my favorite novels is "To Reign in Hell" by Steven Brust, which spins from the legend of the fallen angels. Not his best actual writing but the ideas are whacked. Brust is quoted on the back cover as saying:

    "From all of my readings on the revolt of the angels, two things are clear: God is omnipotent, and Satan is not a fool. There seems to be a contradiction here."

    Take it for what it's worth ... the drunk ramblings of a young writer. But the novel's a laugh and a half.

    thanx,
    Tiassa

    ------------------
    "Let us not launch the boat until the ground is wet." (Khaavren of Castlerock)
     
  8. Lori Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,065
    Corp,

    Please explain how the Bible does not tell you how to worship? I'm too confused.

    Trillion1,

    Here's the deal....God knows ahead of time yes, but does not direct ones decision making, other than the influence of the Spirit as we all have. So, he knows what you're going to do, but does not make this choice for you. He just knows what YOU will CHOOSE to do before you do. Does that make sense? And how about this? God knows that He will change His mind before He tells us that He has. For example, say He's going to judge someone or something....say the US for example, for all of the sin we live in. So, He decides that He will wipe us out with some natural disasters. Then someone prays for mercy, because the Holy Spirit leads them too, and yes, He knew you would, so because of that, He lessens the severity of the judgement. It may seem that He just changed His mind, when in reality, He knew how it would turn out all along. See, there would be a price for sin (the judgement), and I believe that it's weight (maybe not method) is fixed, like a scientific principle (so much sin = so much judgement), like an equation. BUT, prayer for forgiveness and mercy in Jesus name basically negates the effect of some of that sin. So the judgement has to be lessened in response. So ultimately, it is always up to us. Everything is. Those people didn't have to pray for mercy, but they chose to, and God knew they would before they did, but it's still a choice they made. God just knew the choice that they would make before they did. Ok, that should be about as clear as mud.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!



    ------------------
    "ET phone home!"
    "Uh, hello Satan?"
    "Hey, your plan worked great! They all think I'm cute!"
     
  9. truestory Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,122
    Hello trilli0n1,

    I believe that FyreStar has posed some interesting questions but, to put it into some limited human terms, can't you see a difference between having power and exercising that power? Also, is a mind only changed when a mistake has been made?

    For example, you have the "power" to choose between doing good and doing evil. Does this mean that you ARE good or that you ARE evil or that you ARE behaving in a good way AND and an evil way all times? Or, does it simply mean that you have the "power" to exercise either of these natures through your gift of free will? Also, if you went to bed last night prepared to dress in blue today, woke up this morning, changed your mind and dressed in red instead, does this mean that the blue decision was a "mistake" or just a different choice? Changing one's mind does not necessarily mean that a mistake was made, does it?

    In a previous discussion on the subject of predestination it was pointed out that God "could foresee" our destiny. God has the power to foresee our destiny "if" God so chooses. However, God's ability to foresee our destiny does not cause us to end up the way we do because God does not choose to control our destiny. We control our own destiny through the gift of free will which the all-powerful God has "chosen" to give us.
     
  10. Lori Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,065
    Yea, yea, and I thought of another analogy. Like Nostradamous, or anyone who may "see" into the future. Now God's view of the future is perfect, whereas human prophets or visionaries or whatever may not be perfect, but the same principle applies, in that, just because Nostradamous said that he knew the future doesn't mean that he caused it to happen. Why is this such a hard concept for people to grasp? Lots of things put me into a brain fog, but this seems pretty simple????

    ------------------
    "ET phone home!"
    "Uh, hello Satan?"
    "Hey, your plan worked great! They all think I'm cute!"
     
  11. truestory Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,122
    Yeah, Lori. I think that's a good analogy!

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  12. ilgwamh Fallen Angel Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    317
    1. If AP God existed he would know his own actions before he did them. Thus he could not change his mind without having made a mistake sometime in the past, and is not perfect. And if he can't change his mind he is not all-powerful. There is a basic contradiction there.

    I may be wrong but your post seems to fall into one of two categories.
    1 It does not take into account extra dimensions.
    2 It takes into account extra dimensions but doesn't really know much about them or even remotely understand them.

    2. If AP God knows we go to heaven and hell or whatever before we are born then we are destined for either one and there is no free will and everything said in the bible is a lie. You CANT choose what you do, God already has it set out, and your final destination too.

    See response to objection number one.

    Btw, you seem to have forgoten an "obvious" contradiction. Can God create a bigger rock than he can lift? If he can, he can't lift it and is not all powerful. If he can't create a rock bigger than he can lift he is again not all powerful. (Sarcasm if you did not know)

    God is the source from which all your reasoning power comes from. When you argue against Him its like cutting off the branch you are sitting on.

    """"Well, let me say that most people I run the idea by have a difficult time accepting that their God also makes the things they find evil in the world.""""""

    Why shouldn't they? God is cool.

    Vinnie

    Praise Jesus!!!
     
  13. Corp.Hudson Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    419
    Lori--The bible does say how to worship god, but most of the bible is historic (obviously not the divine interventions though

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    ). In the Tanakh (old testament) the early jewish kingdoms, kings, national dillemas, kings, leaders, prophets, and wars are documented. In the New Testement everything is historic, though the gospels may be seen as embellished history. Most biblical events really happened, the only question is if gods hand was at work or not.
     

Share This Page