A question concerning Marijuana..

[scilosopher]

Edufer,
You're not being consistent. Just as there is likely to be a level of consumption of alcohol where there are essentially no harmful effects the same goes for smoking herb. Moderation is important.

I've never heard of beer being beneficial, only wine and it was because of the grapes and the same effect can be gotten from grape juice. Alcohol is MUCH more addictive than marijuana when consumed regularly and in my experience is a much more unhealthy drug. You can argue society's biases, but they are not rationally grounded.

While I lack the figures, I would be willing to bet that the number of people killed by cancer from smoking pot is less than the number of people killed by drunk drivers every year. In those cases it's not even the people who do the drinking that suffer. Yet herb is illegal and alcohol isn't.

My main point was simply that our society seems to accept behaviors which cover all the bad sides of recreational drug use. This is not to say that it is good or necessary to use them, but it should be a choice.

Regarding strictly the health effects, marijuana is only clearly unhealthy because of the smoke. If you only ate brownies it isn't clear it would be unhealthy. Most of the transformation occurs during burning, generating carbon based carcinogens (also present in smoked meat, which can cause stomach cancer). Name one thing transformed in the brain that clearly has bad effects. Thermodynamics are ridiculous to simply through it out there labeled as inarguable. It isn't even clearly intelligible what you mean by it.

I'm sorry to hear about your father (my father had it as well and was lucky enough to live). How exactly though is prostate cancer not like prostate cancer?

 

[Edufer]

Consistency is the name of the game

"Just as there is likely to be a level of consumption of alcohol where there are essentially no harmful effects the same goes for smoking herb. Moderation is important."

That's true. But which is the <b>moderation level</b> for cannabis? According to most studies, regular daily smoking, as done by average users of marihuana, seems to be above the moderation level. There are noticeable effects on your behavior, provoked by chemical reactions in the brain, chemicals supplied by THC and other cannabinoids.

I've never heard of beer being beneficial, only wine and it was because of the grapes and the same effect can be gotten from grape juice.

Not so. The flavonoides found in wine after fermentation are not found in grapes. And the flavonoids are (among other things under scrutiny) the ones blamed for beneficial effects.

Alcohol is MUCH more addictive than marijuana

It is also true. Alcohol (as found in hard liquor --ethylic alcohol) has a physiological addiction, while cannabis has a "psychological" addiction. Either way, both are addictive in their own terms and should be avoided. The alcoholic toxin has been rated for different hard liquors, and Vodka has been chosen as the base for toxicity comparisons: Vodka toxicity is rated "1", then comes whiskey with "8" (eight times as toxic than vodka), Gin has a rating of "40", and the last in the list is Absynth, rated "200". Thus, drinking a shot of whiskey is like drinking 8 shots of vodka, and so on.

While I lack the figures, I would be willing to bet that the number of people killed by cancer from smoking pot is less than the number of people killed by drunk drivers every year. In those cases it's not even the people who do the drinking that suffer. Yet herb is illegal and alcohol isn't.

That's true again. But you are forgetting that marihuana induces behaviors that can also lead to violent crime, mugging, rape, murder, etc, not mentioning driving "high" in the highway or around the neighborhood. I would like to see if somebody has any statistics about this. I am sure there is one, but I don't have it. But drugs of any kind will remain illegal because the legalizing of them would provoke serious financial imbalance to the world's economy. Plus, the State Department will never allow drug legalizing because drug trading is the biggest revenue they have for financing undercover CIA's operations. Otherwise, they had to ask Congress for the money they need to finance subversive and guerrilla movements, in order to destibilize a given country and sell them weapons. The money poor countries spend in armies, guns, tanks, planes, battleships, and ammo, is money diverted from productive uses as basic infrastructure, roads, harbors, communications, credit for industries and farmers, etc. It is also money diverted from social uses as education, health, wellfare... This is another story, though, but it is an interesting one.

My main point was simply that our society seems to accept behaviors which cover all the bad sides of recreational drug use.

The widely used term "recreational drugs" is an euphemism used by drug activists for diverting the attention from the dangers of drugs, trying to show them as inoffensive, harmless or just as a "recreational" thing like video games or golf playing. The same goes for alcohol, though, which I found highly reprehensible. Drugs have been a companion of men, since mankind became gregarious. And alcohol and other drugs have been doing great harm to society, although alcohol, when ingested in moderate amounts, has no other harmfull effects on behavior than making people happy or festive. I never drink whiskey or bourbon, not for moral reasons; just because it tastes awfull to me, as does champagne, tequila, pisco, gin, fernet, anisette, absynth, etc. However, I do enjoy a Bloody Mary once in a while, (love tomato juice with hot pepper), and Brazilian "caipirinha", made with "cachaza", firewater distilled from sugar cane. BTW, you will not believe this, but I have never, never in my whole life got drunk --not even dizzy, drinking beer, wine or other alcoholic beverages.
<b>quote:</b><i>"Regarding strictly the health effects, marijuana is only clearly unhealthy because of the smoke."</i> True again. It has <b>four times more tar than tobacco</b>, among other chemicals as THC that affects the brain.

Name one thing transformed in the brain that clearly has bad effects.

THC = tetra hydro cannabinol. There are more cannabinoids, of course, but you asked for one.

Thermodynamics are ridiculous to simply through it out there labeled as inarguable. It isn't even clearly intelligible what you mean by it.

My answer above should make it clear. Thermodynamics rule your life, as it rules the whole Universe, and if you can't grasp the idea involved, then it is hopless. How could you argue against thermodynamics...? And why would you want to do it?

I'm sorry to hear about your father (my father had it as well and was lucky enough to live). How exactly though is prostate cancer not like prostate cancer?

I don't understand what you mean. Perhaps you made a <i>lapsus calami</i> in your post. (Or should I say a <i>lapsus keyboardae"</i>)

I also had a prostate cancer seven years ago, but it was diagnosed in its very early stage, so a good radiation treatment (fast neutrons accelerator) cured it. As my father had died from that, I started to make regular checkups every year when I was 45. At age 56 the cancer showed its ugly head, but we chopped it immediately. My yearly follow-up checkups show my levels of "prostate antigen" are in the 0.6 to 1.0, --the normal for my present age (64) is above 10.0, while the "warning" levels (for my age) are around 16.0.

Prostate cancer is the leading mortal cancer in men, far, far more than lung cancer. So, I advise my fellow gender buddies to have their regular prostate checkup, once every six months (if age under 50, because at that age prostate cancer is a "hare": they grow so fast that become a dangeorus thing. Around 55 or more, the cancer becomes a "tortoise", and gives you more time to analize which will be the course of action. At age 80, just forget it. You'll die from old age before the prostate cancer can get you.

 

[wet1]

But you are forgetting that marihuana induces behaviors that can also lead to violent crime, mugging, rape, murder, etc

Yeah, sure! Man, do your home-work a little better. On MJ people don't get that violent. Jees, are you a hard head. It's alcohol which makes people much more agressive and violent. From MJ a person relaxes. Exceptions confirm the rule, so don't give me another long, boring post please. :bugeye:

I don't drive while being high, I have no drivers license. Never cared for such a thing and never will care for it. It seems saver than driving under the influence of alcohol. In the Netherlands, that is. Don't know about the quality of MJ in the states.

Oh, why am I typing this anyway. You probably come up with another long, long, boring post. I quit with it. Have fun...

(Oh wait, now I forget. I drive a bicycle )

 

[(Q)]

Edufer

But you are forgetting that marihuana induces behaviors that can also lead to violent crime, mugging, rape, murder, etc, not mentioning driving "high" in the highway or around the neighborhood.

Mothers milk leads to cannabinol.

 

[Edufer]

Boring posts

Oh, why am I typing this anyway. You probably come up with another long, long, boring post. I quit with it. Have fun...

Sure, facts and science are boring to non scientific minds. Emotional and anecdotal posts are much more fun to read. Unfortunately, we have been discussing a scientific matter from two different points of view: from the factual, scientific perspective, and from the emotional, almost religious perspective. This kind of post exchange leads nowhere, so I agree with you, let us stop losing valuable time.

Hope not have bored you with this <b>loooong</b> post.

(By the way: our criminal records here show that about 80% of crimes are commited under the influence of drugs, although cocaine is the main drug used there, marihuana users come second. Morphine junkies commit their crimes when not under the influence of the drug (they couldn't do it during a "flash", anyway). They steal and kill when trying to obtain money to buy more drug, the most common reason used also by marihuana smokers.

I guess that if they didn't have the urge to smoke MJ, they wouldn't be killing people for the money to buy it --but then, perhaps they would kill people to get money for DVD players or vacations in the Caribean, I guess.

But records show that most suicides committed by youngsters were done under the influence of two drugs: <b>marihuana and "gum"</b>. (Gum are the fumes inhaled from contact adhesives (whose solvent is toluene), a widespread drug addiction down here among extremely poor children (contact adhesives are cheap, and $5 worth of "gum" can be used for weeks).

In the case of "gum", the deaths were not really "suicides", but deathly accidents as the kids, high on toluene, believe they can fly and jump from the windows of abandoned old buildings. It is a sad thing, but although the sale of contact adhesives is forbidden to minors, and many contact adhesives have stopped using toluene, they still get "gum" as easily as marihuana.

Should "gum" be also considered a "recreational" drug? Jumping from windows seems to be fun and recreational. What a way to go!

 

[wet1]

It figures. What a sad post Edufer.

Guess they add a lot of garbage to the MJ then in your country, for I never ever 've had the urge to kill somebody to buy MJ. Jees, overreacting is a job too, isn't it? MJ is pretty cheap in the Netherlands, nobody steals money for the use of MJ.

Cocaine yes, there people are killing and stealing for, or while under the influence of it. And Morphine related drugs like Heroin. Not for/on MJ. That the suicides are done under influence of MJ, doesn't say a thing to me. Do you have records and statistisc also about the suicides, killings and stealing because of the use of Alcohol? And suicides and killings, commited under the influence of medicine? Anti-depressives and so on?

Sure, you can find a suicide in every cathegory if you want. It's just what you're looking for.

Then again, I am talking the Netherlands here, where the main problems are Alcohol, Cocaine and Heroin.

Should "gum" be also considered a "recreational" drug? Jumping from windows seems to be fun and recreational. What a way to go!

You tell me Edufer! I don't know "gum". We are talking Marijuana in this thread, not "gum". So getting sarcastic is not relevant. What is recreational and what is not, is a case of how you use the Marijuana. If you use too much, it's never good and never recreational.

BTW, it's used as medical treatment too, nowadays in several countries. What about some facts on that point. I can't help the situation in your country Edufer, I'm sorry...

 

[Edufer]

People in the Netherlands are affluent, so they have money (even for buying cars!). Down here, people barely have money for buying food, and the cheapest they can find. The last statistic (and you can believe this) is that 58% of people in Argentina have fallen under the line of poverty. About 16 children are dying from hunger every day; they didn't tell about the adults.

Perhaps you misunderstood me, (or I was not clear enough), but I didn't say people would commit crimes or be violent <b>under the influence</b> of marihuana.

I agree absolutely with you that alcohol can induce violent behavior, or transform a gentle person in an aggresive monster. It happenes every minute. I have never defended alcohol or tobacco, because I found these things are noxious to health, and if taken beyond moderation, they are a threat to other (not so tobacco) and to society as a whole.

In the factory my family had since 1870 (until we had to sell it because the crisis, seven years ago) my brother was the head of the medical department and he run a rehabilitation program for alcoholic workers in the company. (30% of the were alcoholics!, from a payroll of 1200). Alcohol is one of the worst poisons for people, and it is useless to say it can take a person to abyss of moral depravation, depriving him of the most basic feelings of dignity.

But as I cannot aprove either alcohol or tobacco --when used in excess, I cannot aprove the use of marihuana, even if if used in "moderation". Why? We would jump into psychology here, and I rather not do it --but I am a fearless person. Just let me say (I concede I could be quite wrong) but a person that uses drugs has something inside his personality that doesn't work OK.

The desire of getting away from reality, away from the problems and anguish he suffers (he might feel life has cheated on him, or that nobody likes him, or that he is not beautiful or intelligent enough, etc, etc) shows his psycological defense mechanisms are not working well. Especially in these days, when the youngsters "see" or "feel" they have no future in this new globalized society, they tend to get away from the world. Some of them become "rebels" and join activists groups (environmental organizations are the first choice), other less aggresive become "bums" or "hippies" or "bohemians". And marihuana (and LSD too) are fine tools for this purpose.

I am sure you must know about Viktor E. Frankl, the psychologist that suffered concentrations camps under Hitler, whose theory about the <b>Noogen Neurosis</B> is a classic. "Existential Emptyness" fits extremely well here. As defined by Frankl, the "Existential Emptyness": <b>"...without knowing neither what he must do, nor what he ought to do, he even ignores what he would like to do"</B> the man just seeks refuge in the mass. <b>Do not confuse this with depression</b>. He is the "everyday man" that has given up looking for a sense in life. He just roll along...

Sorry for being sarcastic. I will not do it again.

 

[wet1]

"Existential Emptyness" fits extremely well here. As defined by Frankl, the "Existential Emptyness": "...without knowing neither what he must do, nor what he ought to do, he even ignores what he would like to do" the man just seeks refuge in the mass. Do not confuse this with depression. He is the "everyday man" that has given up looking for a sense in life. He just roll along...

Oh, then you don't know me at all. I am absolutely not just rolling along. I don't excist in emptyness either. I even know what I must do, ought to do and like to do. Nor do I seek refuge in the mass as stated so dramatically. Haven't given up looking for a sense in life either. I'm sorry to disappoint you.

I quit with this.

A final question: Do you drink? Be honest please...

 

[Edufer]

I was not referring to you, as you seem to have other interests. I was talking about the average mass person.

Yes, I drink: about 10 glasses of good wine <b>a year</b> (it must be of excellent quality, otherwise it will give instantly stomach acidity), about 10 glasses of beer <b>a month</b> and about five Bloody Marys <b>a year</b> Actually, I seldom drinj alcohol.

However, I do smoke, But I smoke cuban cigars (when I can find one) and as you know, you don't inhale smoke with cigars. That would make about 3 cigars a month.

 

[wet1]

Thank you for your answer. I am not a drinker. Can we "smoke" the peace-pipe now? Without inhaling...?

 

[Mostly Harmless]

Peace-pipe.. yeaaaahhhh. can i have some too, and i promise (err NOT) to never inhale, not even a little bit.

Just kidding. I agree with Edufer that its not the best thing for you, but, i surely dont know many people whove been violent on MJ, many on alcohol, i've lost more than i friend to it in an accident.

But a J/reefer once in a while is a great way to relax. i guess, i was going thru a very depressing time last year and smoking a lot-hasishthat is. didnt do me a lot of good socially, but it did get me thru. it was purely an escape. i think its a lot worst or "heavier" than MJ. my doctor and some friends suggested i go on Prozaic (with a dubious silly grin on their faces). i decided not to. Prozac also alters your brain neurosystem and can it can be argued that it causes 'brain damage'.

is it okay to be physiologically and phychologically addicted to Prozac (as many people i know are) and be dependant to be happy? Just because FDA approved it? or is it worst to be psychologically dependant on MJ, which no company markets since it can be available in your back yard if allowed.

i bet if they were allowed to patent strains of MJ (soon possible with genetically altered foods) suddenly the FDA will 'see' all the benefits of MJ. Suddenly globilisation doesnt seem so bad.

 

[smokeytom]

tomato THC

Well the basic premise of isolating a (single) gene to produce THC and then inserting it into a tomato plant is wrong. Genes get switched on and off , they interact and the most probable result is that the plant becomes genetically weaker and more prone to disease, poor fertility etc. etc. The same would apply for insertion into bacteria etc.

Also producing a 'fertile' genetically modified plant would be very unwise for several reasons - least of which is the commercial reason - why give away years of research for the price of a single seed anyone could grow on and create their own seed bank.

The

Of course growing tomatoes isn't illegal. Can it be done? Yes.

 

[cosmictraveler]

Talk about resurrecting a dead thread!

 

[Enmos]

Crowded?? How do you mean?? By Marijuana plants???

Can't be crowded enough there in the Netherlands. There is a Coffee-shop at every streetcorner...very nice.

They have a nice pill in the Netherlands also which you can get at the prescription by the doctor.

Because of the real good quality of the Marijuana itself, it is used by certain diseases, like to ease pain coming from the nerve-system and cancer and other diseases. It seems to be working pretty good, for there are a lot of humans who use Marijuana now a days to ease their pain.

The THC is the most important ingredient of this Herb. It is a Natural drug, an Herb, no garbage added.

So they found a way to produce a pill which has the same effect as Marijuana, but it is not exactly the same as the Herb. It seems rather impossible to me to make a pill which has the same effects as the Marijuana itself.

Tomatoes or other food with artificial added THC seems not relevant to me.

You can use the Marijuana itself in your cooking if you want to...just like other spices you add to your food. Just put it in at a later time and it will work perfectly.

Or bake a nice cake with it...Oh what joy you have an hour after eating it. For several hours.

It is legal too, you are allowed to drive your car and have 30 grams of Marijuana in your possession for your own use.

Guess the US government is old fashioned here. But hey...what do you want?
The US government want to have control over their inhabitants and then you are really not allowed to do any thing which they disaprove with.

Make a nice THC bomb...Perhaps they like that better.
Then drop it at the White House please, if everybody is there and perhaps they stop bombing the Earth...

No, by people.. you can have em all and I'll toss in the coffeeshops for free