A Request Directed to Sciforums' "Atheists"

Discussion in 'Religion' started by Tiassa, Mar 21, 2014.

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  1. Balerion Banned Banned

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    Your story is not typical. Also, notice that you said you settled on one that "felt right." This suggests you were seeking an emotional connection, not the literal truth of the message.

    As for the quote, you're actually taking it out of context as well. He was indgnant to his disciples, because they weren't allowing children in who had been brought by their parents. I think he was reinforcing the notion that religion should start young. He implores people to see religion as a child would--unquestioning, servile. This is a theme reinforces throughout the New Testament. Your religion doesn't want you to think, it wants you to believe.
     
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  3. quinnsong Valued Senior Member

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    We are so easily exploited, aren't we? I would have mandatory reading for the little ones, where parents would read books like A Little History of The World by E.H. Gombrich to their wee ones at bedtime. This book is just a remarkable tool for adults to explain human history, Gombrich uses vivid imagery and storytelling to bring to life our history and struggles. I truly believe books like these lead us to question everything and therefore, less likely to be exploited.
     
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  5. brucep Valued Senior Member

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    What he did is marginalize atheism to the folks he hangs out with [including forum members] and politics. Some folks choose not to believe in creation myths. Problems can arise when folks politicize their belief system in a way that infringes on the rights of others. Fundamental ideologues [religious or otherwise] tend to politicize belief systems. Like insisting that this nation is a Christian nation because the majority of citizens are Christian. As long as the fundamental ideologues publicly diss folks that don't agree with the ideology there will be trouble in river city.
     
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  7. Aqueous Id flat Earth skeptic Valued Senior Member

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    I either don't recall the thread or I missed it completely. This is the first time I recall Tiassa taking a stance against atheists.

    To me it's relevant because it's thrust into our faces as the rationalization for usurping public policy. Here, in these threads it's relevant because it's being used as an excuse for trolling the science threads with Creationism, albeit often done by undercover fundamentalists.

    You may not want to, but you can if your subscribe to my position, that God is a cultural artifice, which by definition means God does not exist. I want to disprove God, and I also can, so I do. Most folks just shrug and walk away. The only person I can remember who would bicker with me on this was LightGigantic. After it became clear to me that he was just a troll, I put him on ignore, at which I was at that "nor do I want to" stage with him.

    I enjoyed that brief exchange we had immensely. The last case I can remember involving attacking a person's belief was against Photizo, who was making these peculiar drive-bys in the recent climate thread. I probably provoked him into coming out of the closet so strongly that he got banned for preaching. I'm not sure but I think this might serve as a test case for the question of whether or not the strong atheist attacks may be both warranted and productive. To me it seemed a little like an exorcism.

    That reminds me of the long running thread we had on that topic which I think has run its course. The typical defense given by the fundamentalists was that people committing harm were acting in their personal capacity therefore the religion itself cannot be held liable. I recall bringing up one of the notorious Bible illustrations depicting Christian Crusaders slaughtering European Jews on their way to Jerusalem. The illustration I have in mind shows Jesus and God the Father practically pushing the swords forward. Even then the fundies were intransigent. There is wall there, one of denial. That's where most of my attacks are launched.

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    The conical hats are Judenhut which identifies them as Jews. ​



    What's often at stake here is the perception, typically by illiterate and/or religious posters, that knowledge itself is oppressive. There's no doubt in my mind that education is intolerant of ignorance and, when it gets down to bare bones, school itself is a form of oppression--the oppression of laziness. I think that's the underlying mechanism which you are actually speaking of.

    You may be feeling empathy for people similarly situated. I think all of us (minus the psychopaths) feel empathy of different kinds. For example, I feel empathy for young and impressionable people held hostage by delusion and ignorance of their handlers. At some point a little jolt, just to hit the nostrils like smelling salts, is probably not a bad thing.
     
  8. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

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  9. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

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    if that were true, then the whole aspect of "Jesus the Asshole" goes out the window... because lets face is, Christ was a bit of a dick. When he saw wrongs being committed, he didn't have much issue with going up and, sometimes very literally, smack-a-bitching the ones involved - key example, the tax collectors in the temple, the prophets trying to trick him with the whole "give to the pharaoh what is the pharaoh" bit, and a big "dick move" that comes to mind was the fig tree (seriously... that one was a bit odd... cursing a tree for not giving fruit on command?)

    I'm not saying Christianity is perfect - I'd love to know what's missing from "the good book" due to human intervention. Though, when i say it "felt right", I meant it was more than just the truth of the message itself - I ultimately settled with Christianity, but even though my first church (the UCC one) was "christian" the atmosphere and the... I dunno... the people themselves?... just made it feel wrong. Instead of being an "arms open" society it was very guarded and wary of newcomers.
     
  10. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

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    That wasn't really a dick move, the Romans had basically taken over the whole operation of the Temple and put their own handpicked guys in there that were friendly to Rome. This was a space considered sacred, and it had a bunch of pagans living there.
     
  11. Balerion Banned Banned

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    Um, I would say that telling people that they should believe in him blindly is a dick move. Demanding access to children is a dick move.

    Why do you assume things are missing? And if you think it isn't an accurate accounting of history, how do you determine what's true and what isn't?

    So you say it's the truth of the message, but you seem to only care about the atmosphere. Have you considered that this isn't about belief for you?
     
  12. Aqueous Id flat Earth skeptic Valued Senior Member

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    When I think of evangelizing I think of a nauseating experience as a young person watching some hick with a microphone having a wet dream about cheating death, hoping to bring everyong else in the room into climax at the same time. Stating the atheist case that God does not exist is closer to giving that nut a cold shower than it is to inducing some other erotic experience. When we gush over the marvels of nature it's cerebral. If we're passing centerfolds around they're the ones that came out of National Geographic.

    You're saying that rather objectively. Sometimes that's the vibe I'm feeling and other times I feel like I'm trying to shake Dracula's Bride out her trance. I'm not the best judge of myself but I can at least say that there is a sense of urgency I feel when the fangs seem to be buried in the jugular.

    What an understatement. That just about covers all of history and art, all of culture in a nutshell. All the values we enshrine in documents like the Constitution are entirely based on recoiling in horror from that very thing.

    I find it interesting that the elephant in the room is Christian fundamentalism. That is, there tends to be an almost gentile avoidance of the fact that 99% of the time we say "religious" -- esp. here, in the context of science -- we are referencing Christian fundamentalism, almost exclusively in its attacks on science. Unlike, say, the Palestinian-Israeli conflict, where both sides have clearly harbored both victims and perpetrators, here it's cut and dry. One side is seeking truth through knowledge and the other side is trying its best to bury the truth in the backyard with all the other skeletons.

    The most heinous use of that trump card is among Tbaggers. Were we not already so desensitized by the onslaught of movements like televangelism we would be remarking about how it shocks the conscience that such claims could exist in the 21st century.

    One of the variations on that theme was Pat Robertson claiming that God sent the Haitians the devastating earthquake of 2010 in reprisal for a pact with the devil, a pact Robertson wants his kindergarten class to think was signed by their colonial-era ancestors. It's this assault on common sense, and the appeal to moronic stupidity, coupled with overt hatred, that seems buried in the present attack on atheism. When we take the high ground, and chastise Robertson or any other clowns of that school, we may be speaking from a superior position, but it's not the same as the sense of superiority that accompanies supremacy. Atheism is steeped in universals. So when we say it's false and incorrect that God caused any earthquake, much less to visit the sins of the parents upon the children --- and far less to blame the victims of the sinister slave trade conducted in Haiti for their attempts to win their liberty ---- and far far less to randomly pick victims for slaughter hundreds of years after the fact ----- not to mention the racist underpinnings of this, from the saferty of a wealthy WASPs mansion ----- we're tackling propaganda at a very basic and universal level. That's not evangelism, it's anti-evangelism: the pursuit and dissemination of truth, and the protection of innocent people against all harm . . . to include protecting young and impressionable minds against indoctrination.
     
  13. Aqueous Id flat Earth skeptic Valued Senior Member

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    Yeah that's the ticket. We're definitely on the same page here.
     
  14. quinnsong Valued Senior Member

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    I am almost as certain as you are that God is a cultural artifice and it took a lot of reading and research(years of it) to come to that almost certain conclusion.
    I hear you loud and clear, really I do. I can even remember the back and forth between you and LG and kept wondering to myself, "Why in the hell is Aqueous giving him the time of day?" LG tried to get me on his little merry-go-round once and once was quite enough, to think some found him of great intellect frankly baffled me, all I saw was twisting of words, use of semantics and someone that never argued from his position, LG would just try to take apart yours. Slippery as a snake, he was.


    From what I have read of your posts( I follow them with rational faith, so I can learn me something)in the threads you participate in, your are informative( at times brilliant) and reasonable for the most part. I am sure there are fundies that make it their business to frequent sites like this one to spread the good news and as an added bonus say they got persecuted(banned) for just being a child of God to their fellow believers. For the fundies that come here just to troll, I say good riddance. However, if a man or woman finds that a certain set of religious practices makes them a better person, a happier person then who am I to say that they are ignorant. Can all men live by bread alone? No, some say they need to edify their spirit so this universe will have meaning for them. I say to them go for it as long as they do not impose their beliefs and practices on me, I'm good as gold. Aqueous, there are some very intelligent people out there that believe in a higher power of some kind, but yet when they go about the task of explaining why, they do seem irrational. Ultimately they end up saying I know, I just know, just take my word for it and that is the beginning of the frustration for the believer and the nonbeliever.


    No disagreement here, there are far too many intellectually lazy people that are easily exploited and indoctrinated with all kinds of foolishness.


    Yes, I suppose I do feel a certain amount of empathy for the ones really searching for answers, that as of right now, at this moment in their journey, still believe in God. Sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind but not in this case, I don't think. The kind of discussion that we were having in the other thread does a lot more to change someone's mind than belittling that person's belief.

    Oh, Aqueous please do not get me started on the indoctrination of the wee ones. The very genesis of making American children intellectually lazy and less tolerant of others are the Christian fundamentalists.
     
  15. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

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    I have, and in fact that was part of what drove me to leave Christianity in the first place... I came back to it when I learned that there are, in fact, Christians out there that practice and preach the message of peace and love and to leave the "judgement of others" to God.
     
  16. Balerion Banned Banned

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    You left out a couple of questions, dood. But I suppose omission is an answer itself, no?

    Yeah, of course there are good Christians. Just as there are good atheists.
     
  17. R1D2 many leagues under the sea. Valued Senior Member

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    I just wanted to "jump" into this thread, and add my opinon. IF Atheism is your "thing" that's fine, I don't care. . Not naming names but a few here and in life I know have came across as badgering. But some are "cool". I don't know why but some comes across as highly defensive on Atheism, and some just seem IMO only, like there close minded. I have made friends with a few sure. But if IMO if your Atheist, please stay out the religion section unless you may have something good to add, its "religion" and imo people that are into religion "talk about it" hence a religion sub forum.
    But I agree with post #18
     
  18. R1D2 many leagues under the sea. Valued Senior Member

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    Amen!
    I agree. The temple was a house of god that got defiled. And if imo like some say Christ was god then why would god not be as Kit so put it a dick his holy place was being used wrongly and defiled? If something went on in my house I didn't aprove why I might be a "dick" too
     
  19. Sorcerer Put a Spell on you Registered Senior Member

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    And do all the religionists stay out of the science threads? Not hardly. We were barely into P2 of the Cave Paintings thread when a couple of them popped up. That's what I said above, this is retribution for all the inteference we get from the holy ones.
     
  20. R1D2 many leagues under the sea. Valued Senior Member

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    First off thanks for your post.

    There were more than 66 books of the Bible. The Catholics long ago before our time chose them. Some were baned and lost. There are many more bible books. Even one by Judas. And history is "fuzzy" you should know that. That's why there are "reserchers"
     
  21. R1D2 many leagues under the sea. Valued Senior Member

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    @ Sorcerer,
    So I a tad confused. What religion do you believe? And that was a good thread. Will need to drop in it to see what your talking about.
     
  22. Sorcerer Put a Spell on you Registered Senior Member

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    None.
     
  23. The Marquis Only want the best for Nigel Valued Senior Member

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    As much as I dislike Balerion on the basis that he seems to be some kind of johnny come lately mini-me, I have to agree with him on one point.

    When Atheism becomes a "cause" there is no longer a debate to be had.
     
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