A world with a loving God.

Discussion in 'Religion' started by Xelasnave.1947, Nov 2, 2019.

  1. davewhite04 Valued Senior Member

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    Why?
     
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  3. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 70 years old Valued Senior Member

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    god makes a large mountain size weight

    Then pronounced - for the moments I am touching the weight I have no strength. As soon as I release my touch from the weight I have my strength back

    Presto - god made a weight he cannot lift

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  5. Vociferous Valued Senior Member

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    No, a feature that defines what a God is, like omnipotence, cannot be voluntarily abdicated without contradicting its existence as a God. Pronouncing temporary impotence does not mean the God cannot lift it, only that it will not. It's choice does not inherently limit its ability, and genuinely giving up that ability would make it impossible to regain, as the non-omnipotent cannot grant omnipotence.
     
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  7. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 70 years old Valued Senior Member

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    So a god who can do anything - cannot step down for two minutes?

    Oops there goes can do anything

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  8. Vociferous Valued Senior Member

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    No, that's just your naive idea of "anything" including the logically contradictory. If you think the logically contradictory can occur, you've already lost the argument.
     
  9. davewhite04 Valued Senior Member

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    Do you think God is an ape?

    EDIT: A Great Ape.
     
  10. davewhite04 Valued Senior Member

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    Why can't creating a weight you can't lift be a bad thing? It's a good thing. He created you but he can't beat you at video games.

    EDIT: Pretend you're awesome at Modern Warfare for the Playstation.
     
  11. Vociferous Valued Senior Member

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    Again, there's a big difference between can't and won't.
     
  12. davewhite04 Valued Senior Member

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    No there isn't. What "God" are you talking about?
     
  13. Vociferous Valued Senior Member

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    Are you really that obtuse? There obviously is a difference between you choosing to lift a watermelon and being unable to lift a house. Unless a God (any God defined as inherently omnipotent) irrevocably gives up its omnipotence, any inability to do the logically possible is simply a choice. If you're this clueless about the long history of debate about omnipotence, maybe you should bone up on it before wading into such discussions.
     
  14. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 70 years old Valued Senior Member

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    OK

    So omnipotent does not include doing stuff which is is logically contradictory (ie logically contradictory is excluded from anything)

    Lets consider the Big Bang from two points of view

    Science - Big Bang occurred and the Universe was created

    Religion - god made the Universe in 6 days (reasonable for a omnipotent being? Could it be done in 1 second? Just asking)

    Science - A state of NOTHING is not possible. To me this seems strange as I would have thought NOTHING would have been the default. Hence stuff exist and has always been the case

    Religion - god has always existed

    The difference between the two, in my view, while Science states stuff has always existed, Religion ups the ante and imbues the stuff with anthropomorphic properties

    Science - Universe runs following unbreakable laws of physics which (disputed) follows cause and effect

    Religion - frequently uses cause and effect (Universe must have had a cause, and the cause was god). And then we are back to - who caused god? oh he always existed

    Logically contradictory or not?

    If yes - bye bye god

    If no back to - where did stuff come from?

    Science - back to stuff is continuously being produced from nothing. Or at least from energy fields

    Religion - back to made in 6 days (did I mention anthropomorphism?) Not saying ONLY god was in existence, there could have been stuff laying around, just not mentioned in the good book

    But if no stuff laying around, god produced stuff from nothing???

    Do I hear logically contradiction?

    Enough, coffee time

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  15. Vociferous Valued Senior Member

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    According to Alan Guth's cosmological inflation, the universe did come from nothing, or very very little (due to the uncertainty principle), which he called "the ultimate free lunch". So no, science does not unequivocally say nothing is not possible. Albeit many scientists find the idea distasteful enough to invent infinite but unevidenced universes trying to explain it away.

    Nothing being the default is more probably, which is why a crucial question in philosophy and cosmology/cosmogony is why is there something rather than nothing. If true, it's trivial that nothing has always "existed", as it still exists as a concept of absence/potential. A God being the ultimate source for all potential would seem to align with that nothing.

    How people personify a God to relate to it is immaterial. That's moving from debating theism to debating a particular religion.

    Explained above. No contradiction.

    I hear the contradiction in how you describe the science. You went from "A state of NOTHING is not possible" to "stuff is continuously being produced from nothing". The latter is true, as virtual particles pop into and out of existence all the time, due to the same uncertainty principle thought to cause the Big Bang.

    Yes, both religion and science (some scientists anyway) claim the universe came from nothing.

    Still don't hear any logical contradictions. Are you sure you understand what a logical contradiction is? It's not just whatever sounds odd to you.
     
  16. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 70 years old Valued Senior Member

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    Correct the mis mis-quotes please if you expect a response

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  17. Vociferous Valued Senior Member

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    I don't expect a coherent response.
     
  18. davewhite04 Valued Senior Member

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    You think Zeus couldn't create a rock he couldn't lift?

    EDIT: Do you think "God" is the universe or something? The universe hates you. Float in it a while and you'll turn into a mummy.

    EDIT: If you are talking about Jesus' God, then you are right.
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2019
  19. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 70 years old Valued Senior Member

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    Oh I was soooo trying to please you

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  20. just me Registered Senior Member

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    omnipotent can mean having either:

    a: unlimited

    or

    b: very great

    power.

    having very great power does not require that one is able to do the impossible, but having unlimited power does.
    because if ones power is limited by the impossible, it is not unlimited.

    so, I suppose it depends on what version of omnipotence you were talking about.

    god could be pretty damn powerful, just not all powerful.
     
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  21. just me Registered Senior Member

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    no, I have changed my mind, what could be in it for god, helping people, I mean, is preventing itself from feeling bad.
    doesn't really matter to me.
     
  22. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    No. It really does mean unlimited - the power to do anything.
     
  23. just me Registered Senior Member

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    that's not what the computer told me.
    maybe it was wrong.
     

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