Discussion in 'Politics' started by universaldistress, Oct 12, 2012.
Uh...are you being obtuse on purpose?
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All right. I oppose abortion on moral grounds, but that would might be the best solution here. Still, as the OP says, one could get a sonogram on the side.
Nope, showing you the problems with your argument. Infants ARE often physically attached to their mothers, and drain them of nutrients to their detriment no matter what the mother thinks of the process. That's not assault or even evil; that's the way we evolved.
Indeed, if the mother said "hell no, I don't want him to do that" she would, at best, be told (by law) that she has to offer the infant alternatives. If she refused then she would risk losing the infant and/or risk legal action for neglect. Children are not just maggots that you can do with what you wish; providing required care for them is not theft. (Or assault, or anything else.) Which is why simplistic arguments comparing infants to adults invariably fail.
Not sure I could ever tell the sex of a fetus from an ultrasound? Even if it can be done, how many weeks into the pregnancy would it be possible, if you knew what to look for?
If someone feels very strongly about the sex of a child, then having a child of the desired sex would make that child a wanted child. No telling what kind of bad feelings would be generated towards an unwanted child of the wrong sex or how it might affect the rest of their lives. But you want to claim some kind of morel high ground and get society to change it's laws to validate your view of right and wrong. I may not agree with with this persons reasons for wanting a sex based abortion, but I can't for the life of me see any reason to modify the current abortion laws.
How much is the do it yourself abortion kit?
We were able to in about 5 seconds. It's pretty obvious.
Generally around 20 weeks.
I don't see why late term (3 months +) abortions cannot simply be made illegal unless a doctor can provide medical evidence otherwise (like the child is deformed, diseases or that one or both the people in the pregnancy may die).
"Late term" generally refers to abortions after 20 weeks (5 months.) In the US, in states where it's banned, it's 24 weeks (6 months.)
Well what's the issue here? Is it gender selection? heck that can be done now even before conception. I don't think its wise to fight gender selection by trying to make it illegal, rather simple education and culture development is a more viable solution.
Tell that to the doctors at fertilization clinics. And to newly weds who screw like rabbits with the intention to conceive. I have conceived 2 children quite on purpose. Maybe you want to rethink this.
So you would be willing to foster a former maggot that apparently forced itself on some poor unsuspecting woman? Why not throw it in prison for holding her body hostage and using it against her will?
I don't think anyone here, though I may have missed it, has said that YOU MUST carry the baby that results from rape. You are confusing two different situations. But when you willfully have sex, you should acknowledge and accept the risks involved including the possibility of pregnancy. IMO, if you take every precaution, ie birth control, condoms, avoiding sex when you are ovulating and so forth, yet you still end up pregnant after sex, then by all means you did all you could to avoid pregnancy accept abstinence and if you want an abortion then get one. But still, too many girls go around fucking indiscriminately with no precautions taken and then want to use abortion as their primary form of birth control. In my case, I am not even considering the fetus' so called rights. i am thinking about how unsafe for women the abortions are. Mentally and physically they can mess you up pretty bad.
You are celibate. These issues shouldn't even apply to you since you already do everything you possibly can to avoid pregnancy. And if you get raped, you should be entitled to the morning after pill or abortion asap. Personally, I think demanding celibacy of any adult is asking too much, since for many celibacy would cause undue psychological harm. But if you are willing to go that route, more power to you.
I have 4 kids and ultrasound told me the sex of all of them. Sometimes testicles just cant be missed.
Sorry, but you have to admit that IS funny.
Yes. A prisoner must satisfy his sentence because that's "others wants."
A person must do their job at work, that's what their boss wants.
The child is a person that wants to live. Claiming it's a parasite is not going to change that just because you believe that that second body doesn't really exist (All medical knowledge notwithstanding).
Then don't get pregnant and then carry it to late term.
Consent to unprotected sex without contraceptives IS. It's called Responsibility of choices.
Let's take this post one on one for a moment:
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Then there is no fetus taking precedence over your rights, is there? You have every right to your body and to the choices that you make with what you do with it. And choices can have consequences.
You have the right to have sex. Or not.
You have the right to do it however you want to.
You have the right to conceive. Or not- contraceptives.
You have the right to abort before late term.
Once you pass these points, like any person that breaks the law- you start losing rights.
A person doesn't have the right to use a body- do they have the right to take a body? To take a life? No- and when they kill, destroy, take life, they lose their rights to their own body- it goes into government possession and stored in a jail cell. Taking the life of a late term fetus with a nervous system is still taking a human life.
Two things here- if you were raped and aborted right away, only fundies would complain. We've had this argument before.
You pointed out the difference between a fetus, baby and zygote. Frankly, if you abort a zygote, I won't think you're a baby killer. If you abort a zygot after a rape, I'd be all supportive.
MY issue is not with any abortion- it's with Late Term Abortions only and I'm sure you can see the logic in it.
You get very emotional over the idea that you don't have the rights of your own body.
Let me offer YOU some perspective:
I don't have rights over MY body, either. I know few people that do. I do very heavy lifting, regularly. I do Hard Work. Chances are, I'm wearing myself out to the point where at Old Age, I'll be a wreck. I know too many other guys who've done it.
Why? Because we don't own our own bodies. We didn't design us- no one did. We're a product of evolution, not of a Grand Plan or careful thinking and how we are is simply how we are. Our knees are a weakness, our backs give us trouble. Some people are born all screwed up- limbs don't work and what have you- where did they get the fair end of the stick?
It ain't fair- I agree. Most men agree that it's not fair that only woman can conceive a child. I know that sounds weird- but it's just how it is. It is not fair that some people are born into the wrong gender.
It's also not fair that we are subject to bacteria and virus- BUGS, little tiny things- an amoeba can eat our brain. It's my brain. No one else has a right to eat it, right? Especially not some tiny little unintelligent BUG. Welcome to real life- it ain't fair.
It's not fair that I have to ingest dead things, turn it into slush, excrete it and then have to clean up after. I swear- I get tired of it. Day after day... I wish at times I was a plant. It's not fair that we age, get old... It's not fair that others have the right to use my body in order for me to make money and survive in this world.
Equipment needs to be moved, assembled, mounted, calibrated, my training, my schooling being used by other people. "Hey, (Neverfly), I can't lift this." I just got my body used...
I do empathize but here's the thing: From everything you say, it's nothing for you to fear--- You abstain, you probably do use contraceptives if not, there's the morning after pill if the heat of the moment overwhelms and lastly, you can abort in a reasonable amount of time. NOTHING I have said puts any undue pressure on your endocrine system and the law is on your side (Here, USA anyway). So you got it covered, I've not said you have to carry a zygote and you're not legally obligated to- What is the point in getting worked up over it?
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If any woman is dead set against ever carrying a child they can get their tubes tied. It's the same as having your pet spayed. Just get fixed and you never have to worry about abortion or unwanted pregnancy. I got spayed after having 4 kids. I decided 4 was enough. And I shut the factory down. Abortion is a non-issue to me. I will never have to consider it personally.
Exactly my point. You need artificial help. You can't just command your body to conceive.
Having sex isn't analogous either to committing a crime or signing up to a job. A woman doesn't owe a man a baby.
No, it's not. It's stupid, but it doesn't entitle a fetus to use a woman's body.
And note there, even prisoners have rights not to have their bodies violated(officially anyway). You can be locked in jail, but you can't for example be forced to donate organs or submit to medical experiments. So, this argument pretty much dies on its ass.
It's not the same as someone actually taking control of that body away from you and doing things to that body against your will. or can you honestly not see the difference? It's kind of like the difference between having to lay bricks and having to donate a kidney...
Sorry, but they're just not the same thing. Somebody asking me to heft something heavy a flight of stairs isn't a violation. Being forced to carry a fetus within my body certainly would be. I honestly don't know how you can compare carrying heavy objects to having to let your body go through pregnancy. One just produces a blood rush in your legs and back for a minute, one is pretty damn traumatic.
Because you do want other women to be forced to have babies, at least from what I can gather. You give me a free pass, but you want other women to have to have babies in the name of 'responsibility'. You want a man to be able to decide whether or not a woman must keep a pregnancy he fathered. Forgive me if I'm wrong but that's what I gathered from your post. If not, then disregard it.
It would be nice if that were feasible but often it's simply not available. Doctors often refuse to do the procedure unless you already have multiple children.
Probably not, I don't want children. I'm saying that purely hypothetically IF I were to change my mind some day.
*sigh* NO, I don't see the baby as a criminal. It doesn't have the cognitive abilities to commit a crime. Doesn't mean it has the right to use someone's internal organs for sustenance when they have not consented.
I'm not just saying this out of anger or personal interest, by the way. I don't enjoy the thought of abortion any more than any of you do. But people don't stop having rights to their bodies because someone finds the thought of a medical procedure disturbing. Abortion should be a right for the same reason that deciding not to donate a kidney should be a right.
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