Abortion= WRONG

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by cma, Jun 1, 2004.

  1. Arditezza Banned Banned

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    Parasites share a blood supply, and can potentially harm it's host unintentially.

    But a tumor is a growth inside the body, parasitic in nature, and is comprised of developing cells. You going to fight for tumors too? Some tumors have hair and teeth, so potentially it could have been a human.

    And, I said one in three fertilized eggs makes it to the second trimester. Not how many make it to term. But that now you are giving your potential life even worse odds. If one in three attach itself to the uterus, and one in three of those ends in misgarriage you have further lowered the potential for life. But again, potential life is way more important than existing life in your view. Next time you jaunt to your bedroom with a box of kleenex and a playboy, you may want to give that a second thought, hmm? Every sperm... is a potential life.
     
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  3. okinrus Registered Senior Member

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    I'm a little confused about where your getting your statistics. The statistics I've quoted, from a fairly unbiased site, say that 31% of all pregnacies end in miscarriage. Those fertilized eggs that don't make it to the second trimester could only be fraction of this 31%. Of course, I'm not a doctor, and without knowing a precise definition of miscarriage I could be wrong.

    This <a href="http://www.infertilitytutorials.com/miscarriage_members/incidence.cfm">site</a>, however,l gives explanation that 15 to 30 percent of all potential pregnacies have spontaneous abortions. In any case, I stand by what I said before. The number of fetuses who die is irrelevant. It would be like me going to the hospital of terminally ill patients who have 10% chance to live and killing them all.

    As I've mentioned many times, the fetus is not a potential life. You have not proven that the fetus is potential life; athough with a twisted definition of parasites, which includes us all, you've shown that the fetus is a parasite. If you wish to argue about potential to life, then you're arguing about whether contraception and masturbation are immoral.

    They are, mainly because they distort marriage, but I don't believe the state should enforce because human life is not endangered. Of course, there are places where I don't think contraceptives should be sold since they are forcing many people to indirectly participate in sin by their sale.
     
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  5. caffeine_fubar Dark Dementia is my name... Registered Senior Member

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    Jesus christ, let the people who want it to be done, get it done. If you disagree with abortion, then call them a murderer and do not speak to them. Its none of your business anyways, which is why we have privacy in america.
     
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  7. antifreeze defrosting agent Registered Senior Member

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    if people think it's a sin, let them practice abstinence. this is the only problem. it is fine to have and express religious opinions but making laws based on those opinions is just not right.

    rock on caffeine_fubar!!

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  8. caffeine_fubar Dark Dementia is my name... Registered Senior Member

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    Thanks. I have talked about this subject for a long time now. I get tired of everyone worried about other peoples problems. So i say, let those people go to hell, and dont make their live's worse. (I am not saying they WILL go to hell, only that you can believe that if you want)
     
  9. okinrus Registered Senior Member

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    No, this is a bit different and unrelated to abortion. But perhaps we should start another thread? What I'm specifically questioning is whether how ethical it is for a cashier to sell porno, condoms, etc? Basically stuff that the cashier might consider wrong. There is a certain level of participation that occurs in the exchange of goods, correct?
     
  10. Persol I am the great and mighty Zo. Registered Senior Member

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    If the cashier considers it wrong... who cares. The cashier is probably intelligent enough to realize that they do not know everything... at that thier thinking it is wrong doesn't make it so.
     
  11. SwedishFish Conspirator Registered Senior Member

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    they why are they still a cashier? they're either a teenager (in which case they think they know everything) or can't do anything better with their life (in which case they probably aren't intelligent enough to realize as much).
    btw, that's an idiotic question. first off, you either need to be in favor of birth control or abortions. i vote birth control. secondly, it's none of their business what people do or buy.
     
  12. okinrus Registered Senior Member

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    Intelligence has little to do with morality, and it should be clear that the most intelligence of us do not necessary have good morals. True, they might have more potential to do good, but they also have more potential to do harm.

    You don't have to be in favor of either. For extra-marital relations, birth-control, not including the pill, does not add further wrong in my opinion.

    To some extent but it's obvious that the "pill" will be used for birth-control, and since it is known to cause abortions, someone who believes it is wrong should not sell it.
     
  13. Lemming3k Insanity Gone Mad Registered Senior Member

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    Thats not true, we do know everything.

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    Then they can leave their job if they are really that bothered about it.
    Next you'll want a warning on the back saying 'caution, use of this product may lead to hell, use at your own risk'.
     
  14. Rappaccini Redoubtable Registered Senior Member

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    Guess what, Okinrus. Might has right.

    A foetus is totally dependent, effectively a weak but heartless parasite.

    Who's to say the woman can't abort it?
     
  15. okinrus Registered Senior Member

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    To some degree the state is willing to let "might" have some influence. For example, in a captalist society this creates a competitive environment to some extent, though there's laws against monopoly, heavy-handed business practices, etc., which means that for any society to survive there must be some restraints upon the strong.

    Our state, however, does not seem to adopt this interpretation of "might" onto the rights of the individual. Each individual is given to some extent equal protection, rights, and freedoms, . For example, I have as every right to my life as the president, even though the president is considerably more powerful than I am. Thus, the right to life does not seem to have any basis on the individual's standing.

    If I murder someone whose suicidal, I'm just as guilty as murdering someone who's not. Therefore, the murder law is not based upon the individual's beliefs, state of being, or inclination to live. Though the individual's want to live does not matter, this does not explain why we have the murder laws in the first place. Hence, according to your view of things, the explanation for your right to life depends on either the community or God.

    Well, you can say the fetus is dependent, heartless and weak but you give no reason why the fetus does not have the right to life. Furthermore, are we not dependent, heartless and weak at times? Yet we each have the right to life, which goes back to my explanation that the individual's state of being, poor, weak, miserable, insane does not weaken that individual's right to life.
     
  16. P. M. Thorne Registered Senior Member

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    When it first seemed that abortion might become a right by law, I overheard (radio) a Catholic Priest make this statement, and I quote as closely as I can recall: "I cannot justify killing an unborn child, because it would be an inconvenience, any more than I can justify killing an adult because he/she is an inconvenience." I never forgot that.

    I seldom express an opinion on this matter, because my opinion is not the issue, but I will say this: I read in a book that teenage pregnancy had gone way down because of abortions. A ridiculous remark as one would not need an abortion if one were not pregant.

    As for choice; we have many choices. We have the choice to abstain; we have the choice to use contraceptives; we have the choice to keep a baby or adopt it. Further, all, nor most of the abortions performed are done so because of rape and incest, which seems to be a familiar outcry. Abortion is a luctrative business and is often used for birth control. I am a woman, and I know this for a fact.

    Women do not make babies. It takes two, in one way or another. The man has no say. If he is married and wants the child, and the womans mad at him, she can abort for spite. Yet, if a man does not want a child, the choice is still not his, nor does he get a vote. Therefore, we kid ourselves saying it is a matter of choice. It is a matter of abortion, and often after we have made our choice.

    People do things sometimes that they really do not like to do, and I stand in judgment of no one, because I am not privy to their circumstances, and even if I were, it is not my place to judge individuals on their behavior, but that law needs some fixing. The way it is shames us, and the few cases that may legitimately require exceptions, do not make up for the enormous numbers of babies killed for the sake of a woman's body. She cries, "It is my body!" I say, it was your body; now there are two bodies, and how dare you treat the second body with no regard? > pmt
     
  17. P. M. Thorne Registered Senior Member

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    As for babies merely being parasites. You who speak with so much feigned wisdom, do you have children? We are all parasites in a broad sense of the word. Depending upon how one looks at it, we all destroy to survive. Even beyond eating, we are destroying things that should be preverved for houses bigger than we need, for playgrounds, more than can rightly be hours. We are crowding the animals off this earth, and you call an innocent unborn child a parasite. That is a disgusting attitude and one might be inclined to wonder what else you learned in college.

    I apologize, but I loved my two children more than anything in this world, and lost one. So I just may be a bit biased. What is your reason for such a cold statement? Science? How much do you really know?
     
  18. Lemming3k Insanity Gone Mad Registered Senior Member

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    The law could not be changed, not without half the country rioting, if you stop abortions then lots of babies will just be abandoned and die or adoption houses will become overrun with kids because they cant be taken care of, accidents happen and lots of people arnt ready kids, ever, so they wont keep them. Its also an infringement of free choice, and while the scientific definition of life remains as it is the status quo will remain.
     
  19. Arditezza Banned Banned

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    I have two children myself. And I have also had two miscarriages. It doesn't change the scientific fact that in the first trimester, they are potential humans and not viable children. They also are incapable of living on their own at that point without, specifically, the mothers life. That is what classifies it as a parasite. Not all parasites are bad things, infact a lot of parasitic relationships in the animal kingdom are mutually beneficial. I think that you are using the term parasite as a negative one which makes you feel as if it's hurtful in some way. It's not cold and heartless to call an embryo a parasite, it's a scientific fact.
     
  20. Nivao Ghost of Mirkwood Registered Senior Member

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    (i haven't really read all the posts; there are, what, seven pages?)

    Abortion is a very complicated issue. I'm pro-choice, not pro-abortion. You see, abortion is a very neccessary part of medicine today. However, it should not be used as a convenience.

    Abortion is wrong when women have them when they do not need them. Say a 44 year old woman gets pregnant. She already has 3 kids and does not want another one, and she definitely doesn't want to get fat again. Now, if that woman were to get an abortion, I would consider it wrong. This is the use of abortion as convenience. It is not what the practice is for.

    Now, say a woman has a heart condition (or any other conditions, for that matter), and doctors know that she will die while giving birth. This is a situation where an abortion is needed in order to save a life- not destroy one without real reason. People also need to take into consideration that rapes occur, and women have had no control over themselves getting pregnant. Chastising rape victims for getting an abortion is just 'not right' in my book.

    I, by law, would have to have an abortion should I get pregnant. I'm on a type of medication called Accutane. If I were to get pregnant, the baby would either die or suffer from serious birth defects. Stuff like deformed heads, missing ears, mental problems, heart defects, thyroid problems, and a lot of other things that would probably kill the child later in life. However, I've justed practiced abstinence instead of the required two forms of birth control. Am I wrong in getting an abortion if I'm raped and get pregnant?

    However everyone is entitled to her own oppinion. I say her because this is a womens issue. And it makes me really mad to hear that men are making decisions about laws concerning things like this.

    -nivao

    P.S

    Where do people get the idea that birth control is a type of abortion?
     
  21. Rqy Registered Member

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    Birth control can be considered as a type of abortion, depending on one's definition of "abortion". Many people say that abortion is wrong because you are keeping a child from being born into the world that would otherwise have done so. Thinking in these terms, birth control keeps a woman from becoming pregnant during, or after, sexual intercourse. Without the birth control, a woman's egg may be fertilized, resulting in a child. By using birth control, you are "killing" the sperm that may have found its way to fertilization.
     
  22. okinrus Registered Senior Member

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    This is what I don't understand. If abortion is not murder, then it's merely the elimination of non-human being. It would be no more wrong than someone who kills an animal. And I have yet to see any one define "need" in this instance, especially when there's alternatives such as adoption.

    <i><b>
    Now, say a woman has a heart condition (or any other conditions, for that matter), and doctors know that she will die while giving birth. This is a situation where an abortion is needed in order to save a life- not destroy one without real reason.</b></i>
    It's generally understood that the doctor must make every effort to save both mother and child, but if the doctor determines that an abortion is the only way to save the mother's life, then there's nothing wrong with performing the abortion.

    <i><b>Am I wrong in getting an abortion if I'm raped and get pregnant?</b></i>
    You are not as wrong because your intentions are radically different than the mother who typically commits abortion. Nevertheless, unless if it's close to 100% the unborn baby will die or there's risk to your life, I don't believe an abortion should be performed.
     
  23. okinrus Registered Senior Member

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    Ok, I'm going to argue the definition of parasite a little. This is what webster says in the third definition
    In your position that the fetus magically turns into a baby at birth, this "without making a useful or adequate return" should disqualify the fetus from being considered a parasite because the return, a baby, is valued by society.
     

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