Affirmative action

Right, well I'm not exactly sure if the scenario I'm about to describe falls under the category of this thread's title, but it's close enough anyway, so I'll leave it.

Right, here we go:

My family's last name is Rodriguez, and we live in the south western united states. We are not Hispanic, no one in our family (extended) is Hispanic, hell no one in my family has ever been to Mexico, or anywhere in Latin America, to the best of my knowledge. There was one Spanish guy (that is to say, from Spain, good ol' European Spain) somewhere on my fathers side other than that, me and my siblings are mostly of German, Italian, and just a pinch of Irish heritage. Basically we are all western European mutts by ancestor, but we happened to end up with the Spanish last name. And just to put things into even more into perspective, both of my parents families came over to America in the early 1900s, so that's where my family comes from.

Anyway, My little sister (who is currently a sophomore in the same High school I went to when I was her age) was recently called out of a class along with roughly every other Hispanic kid in her class, and were taken into a meeting where they were all told about the amazing government benefits, scholarships, and even free hand outs for college and other post-high school education options, that they were now being given special access to, WHY? because they're Hispanic of course!

Let me tell you a little bit about the high school I went to (and my little sister is currently going to) we are in a rather upscale suburb of one of the American southwest’s larger cities, EVERYONE who goes to that school is from a family that, though perhaps isn't flat out rich, are doing fairly well for themselves. If you were to see the cars that these kids have out in the student parking lot it'd make you drool, and then probably send you into a classist rage, hell, it was nearly enough to turn me into a Marxist, and want to violently over through those spoiled upper class do nothings! Anyway, my point is, why are THESE kids getting free money!? Why is anyone from that school getting a free hand out? And what stupider criteria could be used, than someone's last name?! The idea is clearly to help out Hispanic kids, but none of the Hispanic kids in that area are struggling for cash, I could understand if this was an inner city school (Well I still couldn't understand it completely, the last name thing still gets me, why shouldn't Caucasians or even other minority groups be entitled to the same benefits?!) but this is richy richvill, and offering minority students extra benefits is just completely insane!

Not only that, but the fact that my sister was there, shows what short sited narrow minded, incompetent morons the people running these programs really are! On every form with a box asking our race, every member of our family checks Caucasian or white! We've never claimed to be Hispanic, and one look at my sister, and you'd guess that her name was Whitey McCracker, but guess what, because of a lusty young man from Castil (I hope that's how you spell it) somehow generations later, my sister is the rightful beneficiary of tax money set aside to help the children of already wealthy families! Where's the logic in that!?

Anyway, seeing how as I'm not really getting anywhere writing this, and am starting to repeat myself, I'll just ask for your opinion of this situation and leave it at that.

Also, I'll be happy to talk with my sister about the specific offers that are now open to her, if you guys want specifics.

(The real tragedy is that they never offered me free money when I was going to that school! And we even had a democrat in office then, what a gyp!)

 

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i'll toast to that.

AA programs often have a very simplistic way of finding students that get this "extra help". if you are one of the designated minorites then you're in. In your case it seems any degree of spanish background qualifies you as technically hispanic, though you may not be culturaly.

I've looked into various minority programs and 9times out of 10 when they say minority they really mean "underprivliged". the programs are meant to help those who most need it. but making that distinction based solely on the person's ethnicity is very dumb. there are plenty of nonminorities who could use money for college more than some minority kids. the key factor really should be socio-economics. not race.

 

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Exactly, spiff, I mean offering these programs to the Hispanic children of my old school is almost like bigotry. Are they trying to say that Hispanics, even if they grow up in a good neighborhood, and go to a palatial school rated as one of the best public schools in the state, still need extra financial assistance? That even though they have much better opportunities and conditions than inner city Hispanics, that they are still incapable of actually doing anything on their own, and that without some tax payer money to level the playing field they'll do worse than racially superior Caucasians? Because that's the message I'm getting from this.

And to think, I used to believe that socialism could be ugly when it was done right!

 

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its funny that you bring this up cos i was talking to - is your sister cute- my friends the other day and we were similarly outraged.

why blame affirmative action? blame the particular people/bureaucracy that are responsible for adminstering this particular program. their incompetence has nothing to do with affirmative action per se. what is the school district...blah? go rag on their ass

 

AA programs are a bandaid solution to problems this country has faced since inception(minorities). If your sister gets in the front door w/ Rodriguez as a last name, she will surely be weeded out once she reveals your families financial statements (if you are well to do) when it comes time to apply for scholarships etc.
I think from a broader perspective, a hispanic youth looking at upward mobility in a corporate environment or other, would find motivation knowing that one of his own has made it(sometimes people find comfort in their own). Other questions seem to be directed towards ending AA, like when will we finally be equal etc, to where we dont have to use it anymore. I think things like that will take some time, we are a far cry from being equal.
I have a friend who was full russian but was born in mexico city, who puts down he is hispanic. Do you think there is something wrong w/ that? I have another who is comes from an extremely wealthy family and is full spanish, but was born in mexico as well. She claims hispanic, and a couple years ago got into an ivy league medical school on the east coast ahead of friends who did way better on the MCAT and GPA, who ended up going to mediocre schools, but were also asian and white.
Anyway my point is, the system is imperfect, but the downsides can still be positive if looked from the right direction........I really dont know how I feel about it...i guess it is some solution, i really dont know if it is the best but what other criteria can you use besides last name(family history), finances etc....

 

The thing is, though, that Affirmative Action perpetuates the problem that it's supposed to solve. How much do you want to bet that resentment toward minorities is only going to be streingthend by giving them free hand outs, and cheating otherwise more qualified caucasians out of money or positions in business/education.

 

I strongly disagree with affirmative action. Maybe affirmative action was necessary when first introduced. I think affirmative action is a violation of the United States constitution because it is segregation all over again. Here is just a thought: does affirmative action mean that the people who use it believe they are not good enough without it. That is bull. Look at Colin Powell. He became a four star general in the United States army. He never would have made it to that position if he thought he wasn’t good enough. The minorities that need affirmative action are of the same social class of the non-minorities that don’t qualify for it because they are white. Affirmative action tries to link poor minorities to the middle class. There is nothing to link poor white people to the middle class. In other words, there many minorities that have worked really hard to get where they are without affirmative action, and there are also minorities who do nothing to better their education. The same goes for whites. The ones who work hard and compete well in the world around us, and those who do not work hard and live on the bottom of the social class.

 

you are worried about school? black folks are gettin murdered by judges enforcing rigged and discriminatory laws! this is a modern day form of lynching!
blacks are paid like 70cents on the dollar and whitey still wants more? privilege is a hard thing to give up huh?

 

40 acres and a mule

it's obvious that the US isn't exactly a level playing field. the US systematically screwed minorites out of money, education, and about anything else they could for HUNDREDS of years. it's been what 40years since civil rights. since minorites were actually legally considered equal to whites. that's just absurd. and now there's already resentment because people think minorities are asking for too much?

though I do think something should be done I don't think AA as it is carried out now is the best solution. I just think it could use some tweaking, such as looking closer at who it is trying to help. bassing that solely on race is too simplistic.

there are some problems, like when does it end? how do we asses when things are a "level playing field". even if AA worked perfectly i would think it would take a long time to "undo" hundreds of years of government sponsored racism.

 

I have no idea where you're comming from with this, except perhaps to be a contrairian.

 

Re: 40 acres and a mule

Lets see. . . civil rights 40 years ago. . . discrimination by the government for hundreds of years. . . wait just a fucking minuet, as of 40 years ago the US government hadn't existed for hundreds of years!

hehe, sorry, I just love semantics.

Anyway, yes, some minorities are asking for far too much. For instance the "million man march in which about 100,000 black men marched on washington in a protest demanding 'reparations' I find that to be asking a bit much. So all whites are supposed to play blacks money for slights to their ansesters by some white people? I don't even know where to begin with that one. Would my family be exempt from paying, as our ansesters didn't even live in America while slavery was legal? Somehow I think not, if they had their way. No harm no fowel I say, you can't punish someone for something they didn't do, and there's no sence in giving compensation to someone for wrongs that weren't done to them.

I think we should have tough anti-descrimination laws, and seek to truely level the playing feild, but I don't think anyone should be getting handouts, that's weighting the other side, and simply imbalancing things in the other direction.

Again by the time segragation ended, the US government wasn't hundreds of years old, keep that in mind

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As for when do we know that the feild is even, I say that it is close enough right now. There are no official government organizations which are in the bussiness of being outright descriminatory (With the exception of AA itself. . . and when it comes to ratial minorities. . . basatards still won't let homosexuals marrie we'll get 'em for that, though) and the government can't mind control every single hick who's got a thing against blackie, or jews, or homosexuals, or what have you? Hell no, and does the government owe anyone anything for that? I'd say not, not unless you'd like to put the government in charge of all aspects of society, and tell everyone what they can and can not think.

Anyway, I myself am a homosexual, and under many state, and even a few federal acts, I'm unable to obtain a marrage licence with my partner! Do I think that that entitles me to some of the straight man's money? Should anyone give me a fucking medal of honor and all expenses payed ride through college? Fuck no, I'm not entitled to jack shit, suffering doesn't give anyone a special right to anything.

 

"As for when do we know that the feild is even, I say that it is close enough right now."

lol. what about that thing about blacks making 70cents on the dollar compared to whites(with the same jobs). that doesn't seem very close to me.

pardon me while i roll my eyes about that semantics coments

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ok. reparations. i'm against them. though i don't think they are unreasonalble. the government has done such things in the past to people it has screwed over(see asians around the time of WWII). but in this case i really don't think it would help. i think it would be a nice gesture maybe but i think it wouldn't improve anything. ignoring the problem of exactly who gets it and who pays for now. lets say the gov cuts a nice check to every black peson in the US. that's not going to help overall. people are just going to go out and buy shit. maybe some people will put it to good use, but most won't.

 

Well yes, if the money were just to come magicaly out of nowhere, woudln't it be such a wonderful thing? In fact perhaps the government should simply be an organization to distribute this money that comes from nowhere, in the form of helpfull grants.

As for your comment about Blacks making 70 cents on the dollar for the same jobs, please back this up. I doubt very much that this is the case throught America.

 

ok. I will give you some links

http://www.asu.edu/educ/sceed/n_n/b_may99.htm

http://www.thehutchinsonreport.com/120101guestcommentary.html

http://www.fcnl.org/issues/civ/sup/aff_inequity.htm

are you surprised by this? I always think it's interesting people view of the degree of racism in the US varies so much. I guess it depends on your experiences. when i tell white people my "racism still happens" storries they are always much more shocked than black people are. I get things like "it must have been an isolated incident" or "I can't beleive there are still people like that".

 

mystech

hahaha
and now out comes the "some of my best friends are black"

lets see, we have here.... areas of discrimination, prejudice and murder..........housing, judicial, sentencing, financial, wages, education.
lemme know what you dispute.

ps the bitches make less than the blacks!

where the hell is malcolm x when you need him the most!

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i also want to know if you accept that there are wage disparities. if you do, perhaps you can offer up an explanation

 

what is that? superflous verbiage like this so obviously diversionary, it is laughable! sounds like that frikkin purple pink dinosaur shit!
dont you understand radical politics? extreme positions are staked out. its a bargaining tactic. anyway, to bring reparations into this discussion is the height of disingenuity and it will not stand!

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i should have said 20 cents just to spice thing up a bit more!

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What the hell are you talking about?

So essentialy you really don't care at all about what you say just so long as it's contrary? I figured as much from you already, but it's nice to have you admit it.

 

thats another good one. merely asking for and getting a level playing field is somehow a special entitlement. the frikkin hypocrisy!

 

you are a silly boy. my humor should not distract you from disputing any of my
accusations. i staked out my position. what is yours?

dont make me read this useless thread!

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I say to hell with it, I've already coverd this, the government doesn't have obligation to take extra action, anything more would be a grose violation of civil and individual rights. I hate to have to say it, but a private organization has the right to decide how they are going to run, if that doesn't sound fair, try a poleice state enforcing ratial tolerance.