African lion vs Grizzly bear

Discussion in 'Biology & Genetics' started by Monarch, May 10, 2015.

  1. Monarch Registered Member

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  3. wellwisher Banned Banned

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    Lions in the wild, will attack and kill larger prey, like wildebeest. If the lion saw a bear, it already has an instinctive strategy because it will attack things that are large and hairy. The bear does not normally attack larger prey, because the bear is more of an omnivore and is one of biggest things, in his universe. It lacks an offensive attitude for large things.

    One would need to train the bear to attack larger prey, by beginning with large prey animals, buffalo, that don't normally take the offense. Then the bear can work out a strategy so he has a better fight with the lion. The bear might use wrestling moves to choke out the lion. This is something the lion is not used to.
     
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  5. sideshowbob Sorry, wrong number. Valued Senior Member

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    Lions attack the slowest zebra.
     
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  7. sculptor Valued Senior Member

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    lions are pack/pride hunters
    grizzlies ain't
    so
    lion 400-5oo pounds
    grizzly 600 to 900 pounds
    one lion vs one grizzly bear;
    I'd bet on the bear
    with odds
     
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  8. Kristoffer Giant Hyrax Valued Senior Member

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    Bears performing choke holds, wrestling style. I call bs.
     
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  9. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

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    There are lots of lions living solitary or near-solitary lives. The females in the pride kick out all but the ones they like best. So it would not be unusual for a single lion to encounter another predator.

    Still, my money is on the bear. His ability to function bipedally, using his arms as weapons, probably gives him a slight advantage. And the weight difference is an advantage too. If these animals lived in the same ecosystem I'm sure some of the fights would end with a dead bear, but I'd expect the lions to lose more often.

    And of course if the lion discovers that he's losing the fight, he can run much faster than the bear, and live to fight another day.

    Oh yeah, the male lions who are kicked out of the pride often travel in pairs.
     
  10. Monarch Registered Member

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    Lions have some 8-10 advantages as stated in that link:

    1.) Stronger bite force
    2.) Stronger paw strikes
    3.) A better protection at the trachea via 2 foot long mane
    4.) Faster in agility and dexterity
    5.) More athletic can jump 3 their body length and height,
    6.) More fighting experince and more skill of evasive manuvering
    7.) Phsyicologically more aggresive and game
    8.) Has killed bears more than vice versa
    9.) The better hunter, hunts animals 2-10x his size
    10.) Better fighting tactics. 3 point stance

    Compared to the bears advantages:

    1.) larger in size/weight
    2.) Better grappler and wrestler


    Your case is then, size trumps skill, which in case the link showed a 600 lb man being defeated by a 160 lb man (a 3x the weight difference), the best a bear could out weigh a lion is twice (not all that significant) and most of it was stated by the scientist as fat, and muscle > fat in terms pure strength as the link shown. We take their averages, and some populations of grizzlys are near the same weight to even smaller than lions, and even more interesting, 99% of all brown bear weights/mass are stated by the same scientist to be estimations, hence its not reliable, using hunting records is no means a valid source which can be amplifying mistakenly giving arguments out of proportions, in that case, 1,500 lb bears are used (and none are actually weighed with a scale) then I see no reason why old hunting records of big lions up to 900 lbs cant be used as an argument as well:

    http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...aniel Boone&hl=en&gbv=2&nfpr&spell=1&&ct=clnk

    Hence bears do not have a significant weight/size advantage, if they did, (and size is proof that it can beat weaponry and skill) they wouldnt have been documented killed nearly a 150 times by smaller animals like pumas, wolverines, goats and donkeys as shown.

    Just my two bits.
     
  11. Dinosaur Rational Skeptic Valued Senior Member

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    I would bet on the lion to beat the bear. The lion is quicker.
     
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  12. Monarch Registered Member

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    Paw swipe comparison:

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    A small list of feats comparing who has harder striking strength, in this we do not compare mythos like assumed, or uses the words, probably, could, would, should, maybe, perhaps, I heard, hear say...only genuine first hand accounts can be acceptable in terms a scientific fact.....

    Personally. I am more afraid of a lions paws than I am of his jaws. Talk about uppercuts, left hooks and that sort of prize-fighting fancy shots! A lion is wonderfully clever and he does it without gloves. A lions claws take hold like a fish hook. A tiger or leopard gives with the paws a side slash that cuts like a knife.
    https://news.google.com/newspapers?...AAIBAJ&sjid=uzUNAAAAIBAJ&pg=831,1149737&hl=en


    (From smallest animals to biggest in order of the lions feats)



    Lion hits dog so hard the brains and guts come flying out:

    http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/l...t=lion fight &dateFilterType=yearRange&page=2


    Lion breaks female hyenas back with one blow:

    https://books.google.com/books?id=z...IBw#v=onepage&q=male lion paw hyena&f=false


    Lion kills hyena with one blow:

    One of the hyenas, engrossed in the feast and slower to retreat than his
    fellows, was killed by a single blow from a lion's paw.
    https://www.google.com/search?q=One...bks&ei=U0HEU7_mJ4K6oQSd74LYBw&sa=N&gws_rd=ssl


    Lion breaks leopards back with one blow:

    https://news.google.com/newspapers?...AIBAJ&sjid=IesFAAAAIBAJ&pg=1047,2002636&hl=en


    Lions paw blow flys man 15 feet, and kills another with one blow:

    Stone flew 15 feet through the air, while the lion sprang to its feet and made off. A native bearer ran up. The lion killed him with one blow of its paw
    http://www.newspapers.com/newspage/30989359/


    Lion kills female jaguar with a few blows from the paw:

    https://news.google.com/newspapers?...AIBAJ&sjid=sEkEAAAAIBAJ&pg=6579,3977562&hl=en


    Lion hits lioness all the way across the cage with one blow of the paw:

    A full grown lioness is a large animal, and more than proportionately heavy; yet I once saw a lion, with the very slightest imaginable wave of his paw, dash his mate from the corner of the cage, where she was rearing against the bars, and send her sprawling on her back as if she had been a little lamb
    http://books.google.com/books?id=RH...X&ei=SCx_U_GfFsTdoAS9oYDgDg&ved=0CA4Q6AEwBDgU


    Lion kills siberian tigress with a blow from the paw breaking its back:

    "detroit finally hit her with his paw and broke her back"
    https://news.google.com/newspapers?...AIBAJ&sjid=U2QEAAAAIBAJ&pg=3109,5557564&hl=en


    Lion breaks another male lions back with one blow of the paw:

    broke his rival's back with one swipe of his paw during a performance yesterday. Several hundred persons, including many children were witnesses to the killing.
    https://news.google.com/newspapers?...AIBAJ&sjid=9HENAAAAIBAJ&pg=5191,2470922&hl=en


    Lion crushes tigers skull with a blow from the paw:

    They grappled and rolled and roared and bit each other. And finally in a split second the tiger dropped motionlessly to the ground. Far too quick for the eye to see, but just at the right moment, this lion, delivered a well-timed blow to the side of the tigers head, and crushed his skull. The lion is a mighty beast.
    http://www.google.com/search?ie=ISO...ally got in a fight?&btnG=Google Search&gbv=1


    Lion kills zebra with one blow of the paw:

    https://books.google.com/books?id=G...ei=py1_U4aRK47xoAT7jYKABA#v=onepage&q&f=false


    Lioness crushes black bears skull with a blow of the paw:

    https://news.google.com/newspapers?...AIBAJ&sjid=cigDAAAAIBAJ&pg=3652,1785493&hl=en


    Lion caves in donkeys neck bones with a blow from the paw:

    https://books.google.com/books?id=z...6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=lion devoid donkey&f=false


    Lion kills horse with one blow of the paw:

    'These he had endeavoured to dislodge, but, insufficiently armed, he was compelled to beat a retreat, after losing one of his horses by a single blow of a lion’s paw.
    http://books.google.com/books?id=Eb...ei=uTJ_U-uxE8P9oAT_-4CIAQ&ved=0CAgQ6AEwATiCAQ


    Lion kills european brown bear with one blow of the paw:

    The bear, not liking this kind of salutation, growled, and endeavoured to parry it. This made the lion angry when, with one- fell swoop, with his paw, as the story goes, he laid the bear dead at his feet.
    http://books.google.com/books?id=Io...a=X&ei=6zR_U8D1HNDdoATcioFI&ved=0CAYQ6AEwADgU


    Lion breaks grizzly bears back with one blow of the paw:

    A few years ago an Englishman who had hunted lions In Africa ventured, upon a visit here, to express the opinion that an African lion could whip a grizzly in fair fight. His' opinion was so warmly disputed by partisans of the grizzly that he determined to settle the matter. He brought a full grown lion to this Park and it was put into a cage'along with a grizzly. The lion at once sprang to the attack leaping upon the bear's' back and trying to dig in with claws and teeth. The grizzly sincerely shook him off. The lion again sprang and was again shaken off. A third time it was shaken off, but this time the lion, annoyed, gave it a swipe with one of its paws, and broke its back killing it with a single blow
    http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...ghts grizzly&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&prmd=ivns&strip=1
    http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...ghts grizzly&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&prmd=ivns&strip=1


    Lions paw blow shatters ox's back limb to peices:

    But whatever the lion's object, the result of the attack was sufficiently patent, and I have never seen clearer evidence of the marvellous strength of these brutes than the terribly crushed condition of that ox. The great bones of the leg were splintered and the flesh a mass of black pulp and extravasated blood; and yet there was scarcely a claw-mark upon the skin,—all this injury had been done by the mere force
    https://books.google.com/books?pg=P...d=otZp3FqL0swC&ie=ISO-8859-1&output=html_text


    Lion smacks down and stuns a female eland with a blow from the paw:

    http://books.google.com/books?id=hp...a=X&ei=SrocVMXpDYjYoASKqIK4AQ&ved=0CAgQ6AEwAQ


    Lion smacks down a male eland with a single blow of the paw:

    http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/736x/1a/96/ad/1a96ad6c1f091102231bef6a49f50079.jpg

    http://blog.africageographic.com/africa-geographic-blog/files/2013/12/lion-and-eland-attack.jpg


    Some visual proof:


    Lioness with paw knocks over tiger:

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    Lion knocks out another male lion with one blow:

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    Lion knocks down a tiger with a blow from the paw:

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    Lion knocks down tiger 3 meters away with one blow:

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    Feel free to post the bears case. Although the first post's link, states several biologist who implied that bears do not strike with thier paws as a primary method of attack, (they usually embrace, wrestler, grab, pull-in, and use their paws to hold their opponents and lacerate), but still there should be a few paw blow related content out there, sumo wrestlers fight similar to bears, and they do use a sumo-slap doward like whack, that could count as a blow, but since thats the only method, it will not yield a significant amount of force as the lions more boxing like haymaker blows are intended to stun, knock down, knock out and even kil by breaking limbs, backs and crushing in skulls.
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2015
  13. Q-reeus Banned Valued Senior Member

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    My second posting outside of physics related stuff. Monarch, I take it you are a lion enthusiast for some reason. Just typed in 'lion vs bear', and well, lots of Youtube vids to watch. Most of those shown has the lion sort of winning but no fights to the death. Then again there are far greater varieties of potential bear adversaries than lions. My money would be on a full grown Grizzly or especially Polar bear - and this site agrees: http://www.askabiologist.org.uk/answers/viewtopic.php?id=546
    [And looks like I should withdraw the Polar bear from the running, and stick with Grizzly over lion: http://www.lairweb.org.nz/tiger/conflict13.html]
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2015
  14. Monarch Registered Member

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    Lots...Alot, you sure? Because last time I checked there was only 3 on youtube with an african lion against a bear, 1 of the black bear and african lion (not really a real fight, just a sparring), the grizzly bear one that trys to take the lions food (and is unable too,) and the korean one where the tiger and bear square off on two lionesses, (as the narritartor said the african beast are no match for their native animals)...quite jarring since they could have used the male lions that appeared in the beggining of the film, why not him? Sounds quite bias to use the female than say the african species is inferior.

    Ive talked to Dr wynick several times regarding those accounts, none are verifiable, (you can go ask your self to see the records, the site is called....ask...a biologist, no records will be given) or even any where in existance, that person doesnt even have a photo of himself, nor a place of academic study, the way he answered it is of historic value via mentions old records, no place, date, people names, nothing, just his country, many many times... lol...thats actually a historians job to share its historical significance, not a biologist who should have biological answers, like weight, height, anatomy, temperment ect.


    So as of right now, you havent shown anything but empty opinions and no sources to be fact-checked, see my post and links? they all have links to its original documents. Theres actually not alot of info on the feats of bears, other than the first link I showed, which sourced almost a 150 times bears of black, brown and polar bears being killed by small animals such as leopards, pumas, wolverines, wolves ect, not as combative as you are making out to be. I know of several genuine accounts of bears killing lions, but it still falls short of how much times lion have been documented killing bigger bears.

    Tigers actually seem to be on fair ground with bears, only with a slight advantage to the bear, but not all that much desiciveness, in which case when its the lion against the tiger, we can see its feats well recorded as nearly fools proof that the lion usually beats the tiger:

    http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=17524&PN=7

    theres only a hand full of accounts of bears beating tigers, yet there is around a 100 times lions have defeated and killed almos every sub-species of tigers...so in terms feats, I'd say again the lion is ahead in the score cards. I'm not really a enthusiast of any of them, I am just interested in finding out the truth. Feel free to ask Dr wynik and all the others there for the root abstracts of what that self-proclaimed biologist stated. I'll await the original documents from you.
     
  15. Q-reeus Banned Valued Senior Member

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    I will happily defer to your obviously greater research Monarch. Just goes to show one should never just trust 'authorities' touting 'hearsay', right? For a non-enthusiast you sure do seem to have lots of enthusiasm for this topic though. Which is ok.
     
  16. Monarch Registered Member

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    Again, not much of an enthusiast, like them all equal for what they are. As for the data posted on ask a biologist, again...I asked them several times to provide genuine proof, via tangible evidence. The root article, the book name, the location, the year ect...nothing was given. Thats nothing to frown upon a biologist, we dont even know if that person who stated that was a majoring biologist, or just some wiki-like member who wanted to hype up his own bias opinions. If the real documents can be shared I have no reason to dought them. (I respect everyones own opinion as long as its not too ubsurd and not backed up) I am aware of about 10 occaisons bears have killed lions (it would be stupid to think a animal such as a bear cant kill a lion) heres some that trumps that of the askabiologist site, real credible proof with its actual articles of bears beating lions:
    http://shaggygod.proboards.com/thread/798

    But their substance and specifics were lacking, not to mention the tally was still quite under the lion beating them on record. Its not just the accounts, its the sum up of everything combined that made me slightly favor the lion so far.

    I am in opinion that the average male lion would beat the average male grizzly bear more than vice versa, its not as high as 9/10, or near that, as more than vice versa can even mean 6/10, but I stand by the lion has more advantages, the bear no matter what size cannot by-pass it...the same way no amount obese human can just out perform mike tyson in skill, being 600+ lbs is not gona by-pass tysons record of exclusively knocking bigger people out.
     
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  17. Q-reeus Banned Valued Senior Member

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    And I don't doubt you have the perspective about right there. Thankfully pitting such beasts against each other for spectator entertainment/betting is (hopefully) a thing of the past at least in our western societies. Of course, such real life stuff has inspired some entertaining over-the-top 'art':

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  18. Monarch Registered Member

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    I agree, pitting them is pretty stupid. If hunters didnt have killed most of them off then we probably would have had our answer already of who beats who bear or lion or tiger (since atlas bears, syrian bears, eurasian bears and others did co-exist with leo leo, and leo perscia), or in other words...if we had video cameras, and youtube like features, back in the 12th century and up, we would have our answer of who won more, conservationalist are doing their part now, and with the help of the web and being connected with almost all the world, most people can help them...asiatic lions have made a huge comeback of an escape from extinction, and so have tigers, they're numbers are slowly going up.

    Its good the hunter days are almost over, back than it was billed if you dont kill them you're a coward, now its if you do, you are a f'in coward...since if you really wanna be rememberd for killing one, then fight them with your bare hands, no weapons, tools and guns, any one can use a gun, nothing forthtelling, impressive or hard about that, thats a cowards way in. These animals deserve to live just as much as we do, we dont have to shred down millions of achers to reform it into shyscraper lots, ( there are millions of abonded houses waiting to be sold, and yet we are looking to verge on making more houses? How about filling the empty ones up with homeless people first) and we can survive just find with out it. I like modern, but I dont like stupid.
     
  19. Dinosaur Rational Skeptic Valued Senior Member

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    I wonder if the Romans ever pitted lions versus bears.

    I think I remember a claim that a full grown male gorilla never lost to any other animal in ancient times when such contests were entertainment.
     
  20. Monarch Registered Member

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    If you read into the first link on this page it states several cases of roman accounts of lions killing bears. And gorillas? It seems they fall short to the occaisonal leopard:

    http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=35256

    But not that far off, since not even tigers can resist them if they get a vital area. But to be honest, the must have been litte fights actualy tooken place there or alot of records are still just dormant in roman-greek and italian written/artifact form, because in the english writings there is only a few of each animal being mentioned fought. They say by the thousands but nly one or two has been detailed and recorded. But then again, no one really is consulting a historian, they would know more.
     
  21. Monarch Registered Member

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    i posted one for trivial reasons:

    https://www.reddit.com/r/funny/comments/38asb9/mountain_lion_vs_grizzly_bear/

    Since that site has those type of questions nearly 100% of the time with bear supporters who flood the site with words like wrek, destroy, skull crush, no chance, ect...it seems those same people are even more silent than crickets now, now that facts out weighs their petty opinions.

    Lions can kill eland and giraffe alone, two animals who both can reach 4,000 lbs and one of them over 17 feet, I would think he is the more formidable of the two when the latter via bears, can hardly manage a near 100 lb puma.
     
  22. river

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    Hmmm...

    A Grizz. Is about on average 200lbs heaver than a lion.

    The Griz. Can have running speeds of 60km/hr

    Lions running speeds of 80kms/hr

    The rocky mountain grizz. Is all muscle. Climbing mountains and going down mountains. Will build a very solid animal.

    In the end I'll take the Grizzly Bear over the lion.
     
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  23. Monarch Registered Member

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