African lion vs Grizzly bear

Discussion in 'Biology & Genetics' started by Monarch, May 10, 2015.

  1. Beer w/Straw Transcendental Ignorance! Valued Senior Member

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  3. river

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    Anyway the Grizzly has everything but the challenge to its domain.

    A lion doesn't walk up mountains ; day in day out .

    A grizzly in the Canadian Rockies does this every day.
     
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  5. Monarch Registered Member

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    I see no logic in that, so if a animal walks up a mountain, that makes it superior? Are you talking about cardio, because running down prey every day for miles at a time would promote vastly more cardio stamina and endurance than simply walking a different terrain, a bear doesnt do this every day, in fact the bear family sleeps more than any other animal on the planet, hibernation is literally half his life of sleep. In those times of no training, no fighting no anything the lion is game... hunting, fighting and killing. Size doesn't equate into strength when its not significantly apart, especially when comparing muscle vs fat, if what you said was true, your average obese person above 500 lbs would dominate the weight lifting world, mma world, and many other strength sports, but they dont. Sumo wrestlers are only good at fighting other sumo wrestlers, if they transition to any other sport like sprinting, racing or boxing they would be a huge flop.

    You seem to only favor the bear because he is bigger, theres no proof that the bear is stronger, especially at striking:

    Again, this happened at yellow stone park, the bears home turf:

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    A few years ago an Englishman who had hunted lions In Africa ventured, upon a visit here, to express the opinion that an African lion could whip a grizzly in fair fight. His' opinion was so warmly disputed by partisans of the grizzly that he determined to settle the matter. He brought a full grown lion to this Park and it was put into a cage'along with a grizzly. The lion at once sprang to the attack^ leaping upon the bear's' back and trying to dig in with claws and teeth. The grizzly sincerely shook him off. The lion again sprang and was again shaken off. A third time it was shaken off, but this time the lion, annoyed, gave it a swipe with one of its paws, and broke its back. killing it with a single blow.
    http://www.newspapers.com/newspage/1489912/

    A bear killing a baby moose with a blow is literally no such feat, show me countless of times bears have killed another bear as big as himself with just one blow of the paw, in fact...just show one account of that, then you will be able to say the bear is stronger overall, there are different types of strength, and the lion holds the record (as already shown) the most muscle mass % compared to any animal on the planet.

    The bear is only bigger in the body, the lion is bigger in size at the neck area, where the bear wont be able to do any heavy damage because of the lions mane.

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    http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=35987


    And bears dont have anything to prove their strength on? Thats a poor excuse, bears co-exist with moose and bison, both relatively larger than the bear, and yet its almost impossible to find any genuine accounts of bears killing bull versions, we arnt talking about a years worth, we are talking about all time... because theres 100s of videos on youtube where lions kill buffalo, eland and other stuff, with the biology abstracts from craig packer, george schaller and more who all state bull buffalo is taken regularly even by lone males. we are talking about records of tens of thousands of this pon biology books, yet not a single account of a bear killing a bull moose or bison? Thats probably because he is incapable or not evolved to be what you want him to be, a experienced or skilled fighter/killer. Its whats you can prove with facts and genuine accounts, not what you just want to make up.

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    https://www.google.com/search?tbm=b....2.0....0...1c.1.64.serp..0.2.292.giqW2PlBJYE

    A elephant is vastly bigger than a bear or bison combined, a eland can weigh almost 4x the weight of the bear, so can the giraffe, the rhino and hippo would decimate a bear 100/100 times, yet there are many records of lions bringing them down. Again, you are either ignoring that the bear hasnt any feats or denying the fact he already was tested, against pumas...and he lost more than vice versa. the bear has the poorest track record of being killed by his predator competitor of all apex animals, theres only about 10 times a leopard has defeated a tiger (mainly because the tiger doesnt have a protective mane), zero times a leopard defeated a lion, but over 40 times a puma has defeated a bear. Thats showing their capability's more than any strength test you can make up. Again, bears have no feats hunting or fighting, only a few tigers were ever killed by bears, lions basically dominate them nearly every time:

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    https://www.newspapers.com/image/82575405/?terms=Clyde+Beatty+lion+fights+tigers

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    The bear has everything but the challenge to his domain? Uuuum, I think you should go re-read the revamped version of this thread:
    http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/showthread.php?t=3889729

    He was challenged, by wild boars, cows, mules, horses, pumas, wolverines, donkeys, bulls, wolves....and lost.

    The bear has nothing over the lion except for more quantity of fat. The lion has every advantage of... speed, agility, dexterity, quickness...power, explosiveness, striking strength...endurance, stamina, evasive maneuverability...fighting experience, hunts bigger animals, posses more killing skills...has the better killing weapons, bigger canines, sharper claws, harder bite...is excepted universally as the King of the jungle, King of the desert, King of the forest, and King of the beast.

    Hence bears and tigers combined arent even on 20 flags around the world, yet the lion is on over a 100, resounding through the rights of power:
    https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Flags_with_animals#Lion
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2016
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  7. river

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    My point about walking up and down the rocky mountains of BC. ; is the building of muscle; hence strengh; the grizzly is pulling 800 to a 1000 pounds up and down the slopes of mountains. The black bears of Alberta and British Columbia are 100 to 200 heavier than those of the province of Ontario.
     
  8. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    1oo to 200 times heavier???
    Is that a mistake? Even at 100 times heavier, wow!!!
     
  9. river

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    Yes

    100 to 200 pounds heavier .
     
  10. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    OK, that sounds much better. [although my mistake was with the word "times"]
     
  11. river

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    " times " did make me clue in about my "heavier ". As in pounds.

    Grizzlies in the Canadian rockies are very strong ; powerful animals.
     
  12. Monarch Registered Member

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    You have to prove it. This is the whole concept of science, to prove things are credible or not. Walking doesnt build muscle all over the body, if that were true, there would be no need for body builders to touch a single weight and mountain hikers would be the heaviest bodied people on the planet. Hibernating calls for an immense amount of fat storage to survive 6 months of sleep, muscle burns alot faster...and the bear would literally die in his sleep if he was made of pure muscle. Unlike any other apex predator, bears have 1,000's of fish that literally jump into there mouths without needing to expend energy. Hence science calls bear obesity healthy:

    Healthy obesity'" "Prof Brian Barnes, director of the institute of arctic biology at the University of Alaska Fairbanks, said: "It is exciting to see research being done on interesting comparative species, like grizzly bears, that have evolved adaptations to extreme conditions."
    http://www.bbc.com/news/health-28639884

    This week on The Wild Life, it's all bears, all the time. Dr Lynne Nelson, assistant director of the Washington State University (WSU) Bear Center, stops by to chat with Jason about how bears can eat a lot while remaining healthy ... and then sleep for five months.
    http://www.earthtouchnews.com/natur...dr-lynne-nelson-on-bears-obesity-and-diabetes

    Maternal condition determines birth date and growth of newborn bear cubs No Access Charles T. Robbins*, Merav Ben-David, Jennifer K. Fortin and O. Lynne Nelson No brown bear with a body fat content ≤ 20% produced cubs even though breeding occurred. Brown bears that were fat gave birth earlier than those that were lean. Cubs nursing from fat mothers grew faster than those nursing from lean mothers. The combination of an earlier birth date and faster growth by cubs produced from fat mothers increased mass of brown bear and polar bear (U. maritimus) twins at den emergence by 330–360 g
    for each unit increase in percent maternal body fat content when entering hibernation.
    http://www.bioone.org/doi/abs/10.1644/11-MAMM-A-155.1

    Thats why some of pregnate brown/polar bears are extremely obese: But once again ,obesity is healthy state for bears. So ,"obese 400-500 kg grizzly""Bears can eat like pigs, hibernate for months and still be healthy."
    http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2014/08/05/338045480/why-fat-grizzlies-dont-get-diabetes-like-we-do

    Again, any brown bear past 1,200 lbs is considered obese and in the final stages of hibernation. In these times they will be there most slowest, weakest, lumbering states, try and eat 10x your normal meal, then go see if you're up for a marathon run. I'd favor a lion against a 800-1,000 pound fit bear than a 1,500 pound salmon gorged bear, what exactly would a obese bear do to a lion?

    Wolves seem to have the better show casing than bears:


    You can see how bears rush in, they lead with their heads down against the wolves like a battering ram, its on all the videos even against the puma videos, this would be the biggest mistake of a bears life, if he rushed in head first against a lion, the lion would cave in his skull with a blow from the paw. Lions are use to being assaulted by bigger animals every day by the thousand of herds, they battle test lions in open grounds, this is what made them what they are, fighters who would challenge anything. Bears are almost always isolated and feeding on vegetation, (requires no combative skill) they dig up clams, eat honey, fish, all these things dont fight back like the lions prey, whom almost all are stronger and bigger than the lion.

    You can keep saying that, but until you prove it, even your only argument of size is flawed. The bear is not a stronger striker than the lion. And the lion kills things 2-10 x bigger than bears. Having the advantage of 1 element doesn't make him bypass the over 20 advantages the lion has.
     
  13. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    Hi monarch.

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    No matter how many links you supply to support your view/stance, you will not ever get river to admit he is in error.....
    This is the same river with a chip on his shoulder with regards to science and mainstream in general, yet promotes and accepts Alien origin UFO's, ghosts goblins, giants and anything supernatural.
    That's what you are dealing with.

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  14. Monarch Registered Member

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    lol No biggie, I still like to hear opinions from opposing side, this lets me know what type of comments surface when data is brought fourth instead of the usual, this animal weighs this, that animal weighs that, so this animal here wins...The end. People have been doing that since ever, an still not a step closer to finding out the truth, I think with enough data a concrete or atleast fools proof answer can be made.

    But I too have to admit, if I didn't have the data on hand, and seen these two animals together like in the photo I recently showed above, I would be inclined to back the bear, well atleast the much naturally larger ones. One would really have to understand their feats, capability's and prowess to make a fair assessment, and from what I know of lions is, they might not be the biggest and baddest animal on the block, but they sure can kick some ass.
     
  15. river

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    Lions do " kick ass " but Grizzlies do better.

    Imagine a pride of Grizzlies; and what they could do ?
     
  16. Monarch Registered Member

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    They do have groups, and they kill fish:

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    Which is the equivalent of a fat man eating contest.

    When lions form groups, its to kill big game:

    Notch and his boys are very good at hunting hippos. In the last four months, they have killed five hippos

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    http://www.atta.travel/heritage/?tag=/Heritage Hotels Kenya&page=2

    Which is the equivalent of a spartan.

    A group effort would still do little against lions:

    A number of years ago I not only saw but personally participated in a battle to the death between a lioness and five grizzlies I was eighteen at the time— which explains why I did something a more experienced man would not have done. I slipped into the cage, armed only with a hammer, which was the one weapon within reach at the moment. My reception was that usually accorded peacemakers. The lioness and the bears, dropping their own row, pitched into me. I had to fight my way out of the cage with the hammer, and gained safety most inglo- riously, bespattered with my own and the animals' blood. I established peace, all right by the diversion, but one grizzly had closed his jaws over my nose and torn it in half. As referee, I awarded the battle to the lioness.
    https://www.google.com/search?q=%22As+referee%2C+I+awarded+the+battle+to+the+lioness.%22+%22participated+in+a+battle+to+the+death+between+a+lioness+and+five+grizzlies%22&tbm=bks&tbo=1&hl=en&spell=1&oq=%22As+referee%2C+I+awarded+the+battle+to+the+lioness.%22+%22participated+in+a+battle+to+the+death+between+a+lioness+and+five+grizzlies%22&gs_l=heirloom-serp.3...694.46231.0.46420.9.3.0.6.0.0.268.451.0j1j1.2.0....0...1ac.1.34.heirloom-serp..9.0.0.NX6qR1ls3tY

    Even things up, and you have a dead bear:


    From Lemberg the Vienna correspondent of the 'Daily News' learns that a terrible battle has been fought at the railway sta tion at Rawaruska. A menagerie was being conveyed by rail, and when the train stopped at the station a great noise was heard. The guards went to the wagons containing the wild beasts, and found the wooden partitions which separated three lionesses from three bears, and these again from three hyenas broken down and the animals engaged in battle. One bear was missing. The lions had eaten him, skin and all. They had bitten another bear's paw off, and a hyena lay dead on the floor. Two lions in a' neighboring compartment remained calm. No one dared interfere between the fighting beasts, until the owner arrived in a sledge and -se- parated them — not before he had been bitten by a bear however. - He claims damages from the. railway administration because the partitions gave way. One of the judges, or presidents, of the Tribunal of the Seine in Paris has acquired celebrity owing to the rapidity with which he disposes of the divorce cases brought before him.
    http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/text...=1405709827986

    As lions are tactical and battle envy'd, while bears are just salvagers and not looking to expend any energy.

    Plus, Its quite telling that theres some thousands of herds of horses in america too, yet no videos of bears killing them...hence the bear is is a poor predator and evolved more of a salvage'r. Bears arnt fast for their size, even rhinos an elephants can run just as fast, and carry 5-10x more bulk then them, when bears run they look clumsy, and only catch calves, who are weak sprinters an are confused in where to run, compared to adults. Its funny no bear has ever caught a horse, yet the 1 time a lion has ever been introduced to horses and the lion speed blitzes a horse silly:


    The bear has never faced a animal who is as aggressive and explosive as the lion. if a lion wanted to kill any sized bear, theres nothing the bear can do but struggle for his life, he wont be able to out run the lion. And white lions get pretty big too, the timbavati lions are said to just be naturally larger than your average lion, lions even if gained alot of weight, they would still be ripped with more muscle, its in their Dna:

    Lord Ivory, a 900 pound lion at jungle island:

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    http://traveltips.usatoday.com/miami...ren-25127.html

    Leo krugeri (white lions)
    5 feet tall, 650-950 lbs
    https://prezi.com/ib03rqqf9yhs/endarn/


    I dont think bears kick butt, atleast not an animal for its size, a 1,000 or 2,000 pound big cat like the lions ancestors would probably be in the level of bringing down dinosaur size prey, compared to how big of animals lions today can bring down. bears are stuck with the occasional calf killer, maybe their ancestors were the only ones to occasionally kill a bull bison.

    Not all that impressive.
     
  17. river

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    Enough; we will never know.
     
  18. Monarch Registered Member

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    I still stand by in the predatory world of beast, the animal that will do the most ass kicking will be the lion. The bear has only a small set of techniques and skill sets, grapple, wrestle down and bite while the occasional laceration. A lion will be landing bone crushing hay-makers and body paralyzing bites. He can take the most punishment because of his mane, and he can dish out the most damage through his skill, will and gameness as the only apex who has a protecting role, to instinctively guard his pride/cubs/females/kin/Kingdom.

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    DUFRESNE Charles-Georges, 1876-1938 (France)

    A:

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    I'll stick with what this expert said:

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  19. river

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    Enough.
     
  20. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

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    The leader of a lion pride is a female, not a male. They run the males out of the pride when they reach puberty and only welcome them back during mating season. Most of the adult members of the pride are females too. They might allow one or two old, large, wily males to travel with the pack.

    Younger males travel in pairs and threes, and try to avoid crossing paths with the pride except when the females are in estrus. Some end up solitary as their pals are shot by humans, but a solitary lion is more likely to be a scavenger, or to attack farm animals, than to do any serious hunting.

    Most of the big cat species (actually most felines) are highly intelligent and can be pretty wily--although this may obviously not apply to domestic cats. Like dogs, they've adapted at least partially to the easy life of a scavenger, pulling tasty bits out of our enormous piles of garbage. This generally leads to evolution of smaller brains that can subsist on a lower-protein diet.
     
  21. Monarch Registered Member

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    This is the general conception of what the entire mainstream society thinks on lions, though fortunately there are classified jobs that has already answered these questions, for us, via ecologist and biologist. There isnt a single one of them that would agree with your statement. The pride, is...ruled, by the male. Not females, theres only two types of males, a pride ruler or a nomadic male who is looking to over throw a pride...females protect the cubs only to an extant, in most cases if the males arnt there the nomads kill the cubs and then mate with the females.

    ..Lionesses generally prey on ungulates, comfortably taking down those sized between 50-300 kg.
    ..But male lions are also very good hunters,..They also take more risks in hunting and occasionally prey on much larger
    animals. They can fiercely take down bull buffaloes, giraffes and even hippo.


    http://globalsojourns.com/imagedump/Web_Articles/Articles_All_Africa/African_Lion.pdf

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    sorry, but you nasing scavanging rates out of thin air, this chart shows they hunt more than they scavange:

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    the males kill more buffalo than the females:

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    When lionesses kill buffalo, it takes hours to bring it down, males do all the heavy killing and can bring down a buffalo in a blink of an eye:


    We are talking about thousands of buffalos accounted for killed by lions, yet not a single bull bison is killed by a bear noted from an authority.


    If what you said was true, the females would have had all the rights to food:








    I'd like to see a lioness holding her own against many male lions:


    Dr packer

    ..Second, and perhaps most important, ownership rules are most likely to develop when the costs of fighting are high and contestants possess similar fighting abilities
    possess similar fighting abilities The lions’ extensive weaponry carries a greater risk of “mutually assured destruc- tion” than in other social species..The high mortality of large prides at low and high population densities presumably re- flects within-group competition
    http://tuvalu.santafe.edu/~bowles/Dominance/Papers/EgalitarianismFemaleAfricanLions.pdf

    ..Overall, males were more important in group-territorial competition than expected, and female mortality and wounding rates were significantly associated with male neighbours, suggesting that males may use lethal aggression to tip the balance of power in favour of their prides
    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S000334720900219X


    role of an adult male lion.

    1. Enter the pride, either kill the resident male or chase it out.
    2. kill all the cubs and sub adults if possible
    3. rule the pride
    4. Hunt the larger prey which the lioness (more than 1) cannot bring down
    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0003347213000468



    Lionesses do not go around and dominate other prides, other coalitions, or other rivals, only the males do that, hence the title King of the beast, its not a matriarchal world title for the females, you never hear queen of the beast, a single coalition of males has killed over a hundred lions:

    I counted more than 100 other lions killed by the Mapogo's.
    http://www.sunsafaris.com/blog/2012/04/history-of-the-mighty-mapogo-male-lions-by-brett-thomson/

    show me females that have killed just half that amount of lions.

    This is the reason why only lions have manes, because the males do all the fighting and are subjective to more harm when they play the role of the aggressor, no other big cat evolves this:

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    Again proves that lions are strikers and not the petty paty taps of a bear...You can almost hear some bones breaking: Lion confronts several intruders:
    https://youtu.be/itFhIgr5ZvQ?t=487


    Still waiting to see a blow from a bear knocking his competitor senseless, knocking them down, or killing them with a blow from the paw.
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2016
  22. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

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    A polar bear might be able to do that. But polar bears and lions are very unlikely to encounter each other, unless there's some horrible catastrophe at a zoo.

    Pound for pound, the 50-70 lb wolverine (or "glutton" as the Europeans call it) is probably the most powerful predator. Just one of them can take down a moose--something very few wolves can do. Since they are known to roam Arctic regions, I suppose they occasionally encounter polar bears.

    That would be one helluva fight.
     
    Last edited: Feb 29, 2016
  23. Monarch Registered Member

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    Science does not really adhere to could, would, should, maybe or might, if there hardly any accounts to verify let alone alot to make it even negligibly common, then most likely its just wishful thinking...again the only thing most people seem to want to go off is, the bear is bigger hence will be stronger, elephants could then hold the title of strongest striker, they hold much more mass, yet you dont see elephants going around and kicking other animals or using thier front limbs as offensive weapons.

    There are only several accounts I came across of bears striking animals dead, and either the abstract said it was a yearling, or the story its self is so seclusive, it always starts off with, when noooo one was around, this is what I saw. lol And this is the general conception of even authority's, when they read books of lions accomplishing the feat, they then add in there own un-observed opinion that a bear can swipe a horse, bison, or cattle dead with one blow, fortunately, there are testaments of true observers who refute and dispute these empty claims. This is what science is all about, honing in on the truth.

    I dont see it coincidental that the lion is as praised as he is on almost every natural history source or heraldic symbolism more than any other animal, and then not be true to his capability's and fall short when conflicted with other animals such as black, brown and polar bears, or tigers jaguars or any other beast contending in combat. Again, theres a reason why he was given such titles as King of the beast for thousands of years to every culture who has seen him, others can try to refute it, but so far when the evidence is weighed the contenders fall short.
     

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