ALMA sees old galaxies before they merged. two ways to look back into the past?

Discussion in 'Alternative Theories' started by nebel, Dec 8, 2017.

  1. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Note that the zero sum state is already part of the universe, and does not prove this energy already existed prior to the BB.

    Moreover, in a purely permittive condition, any durable existence of anything could be creating its associated time-line. Time does not need to be a pre-existing dimension, it is a natural result of duration of change.

    A zero state nothingness would have no time-line, IOW, it would be timeless by definition.IMO.
     
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  3. nebel Valued Senior Member

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    Hilbert teaches an infinity of the future, at the minimum in time ( the "many mansions" mentioned elsewhere having no substance). but as mentioned earlier, the BB would be the beginning of that infinite time, which is contrary to the definition . infinity has no beginning. In assigning infinity to the future outcome, Hilbert assigns infinity to the past aslo, time at the minimum.
     
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  5. nebel Valued Senior Member

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    unless one considered the balance of the zero energy to be really that, a virtual balance, with +- "weights" on it. but
    Coming back to the Hilton hotel, If the universe really emerged from nothing, that had zero energy, permitting potential, that had intermittent appearances of "time" as intervals, sputtering along so to to speak until the big ignition.
    time was always at the disposal of any entity that needed it to exist.
    Carroll devoted 458 tightly packed pages of arguments to show there was an Eternity before here(and now). Prof Krauss 224 to show that there was nothingsic full of the something that our universe is derived from.
    Not that your observation is wrong, it is just too shallow, when considering the words of these two certified learned gentlemen
     
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  7. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    I disagree only in this respect that in a permittive condition time does not need to pre-exist to be drawn from, but becomes explicated as a result of duration of an event.
    a) Proof? b) Eternity without change is a meaningless term, IMO.
    Change is what creates time, which is nothing more than a measurement of duration. A permittive condition would permit for time to be created as a result of change and duration.

    I respect both Carroll and Krauss (a little less), but where it comes to beginnings I am a minimalist. To think that an eternal nothingness can have an associated timeframe of change seems contradictory to me. And then to speak of eternity as a concept, we are only talking about a timeless permittive condition, no more , no less.

    If we start speculating on the properties of nothingness as being a zero state energy condition, then that begs the question where this energy came from, etc, etc.

    It becomes the same question as who or what created God, also an assumed eternal being and you know where that leads us.....

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    p.s. I use the term Potential only in the abstract as (That which may become reality), which in that respect is a timeless probabilistic abstraction and as such is removed from energetic causality. Not all potential becomes expressed ever. David Bohm speaks of a universal condition of pure unformed potential, from which reality becomes implicated and eventually expressed as OUR reality, along with time as a by-product.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2018
  8. nebel Valued Senior Member

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    it indeed does, even the existence of the infinite Hilbert hotel , existing in an infinite future but in an infinity that is only half.
    By assuming that time and energy (locked in a balanced potential) are fundamental, at least we are beyond the hurdle that an explanation of our beginnings represent. leaving the better questions of the future to be answered then.
     
  9. nebel Valued Senior Member

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    Any condition, that the precipitated into the universe would have to have time to exist in. You can not have a timeline without time. that is why I was referring to an on again off again time even in the pre-big bang possibility. each time time is switched on, you would have the equivalent of an creation event. Of course, even now in our universe that for all practical purposes is moving through time, we have spacetime, quality time, sleeping time rec time, all one word in the languages that many thinkers used, but does that mean time is created when htose periods are traced in duration?
     
  10. nebel Valued Senior Member

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    The idea, that only change produces time to me is farfetched. With all these entities popping into existence and starting to string along, unreeling their timelines , maybe they should be asking what is going on here? where is all this yarn coming from it seems to available everyw May be it is fundamental, always has been? Maybe it is there, whether I use it or not, like a road to be traveled at choice?
    I know being able to create your own time sounds seductive, just the the illusion that we create anything from scratch. Creating things from what we have is hard enough.
     
  11. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    But that's all inside the universe, after the BB. The string field does not produce radiated energy, it produces mass and starts individual timelines within the greater universal timeframe!
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2018
  12. nebel Valued Senior Member

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    yes, unless the definition of the nothing with a void full of activities, zero-balance [dark] energy is real. The timeline of the Hilton motel units are thought to potentially stretch ahead of the expanding universe too,
    Could you recommend books to us that elaborate on the minimalist, time to go model? thank you. There could be more things in common therewith the dimension model than we understand.
    While spending a week preceding this years eclipse, it was striking how the predictions coming together at totality were making timing as palpable as the coinciding measurements in the space dimensions. If one can see the look ahead in the time dimension, one gets the feeling of being involved in more than unraveling timelines. It is easy to conceive that preparative condition let up to the greater event, the BB that required the presence of tiem.
     
  13. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    This is wholly speculative, but I can visualize a state of nothingness collapsing into itself, creating an energetic singularity. This could be an instantaneous quantum process at any point in a timeless void and would not exclude a multiverse, each universe with it's own timeframe.

    I see no reason why there should be time as a separate independent dimension. It is always connected to a measurable existence of something else.
     
  14. nebel Valued Senior Member

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    In this statement I see the germ of the need for infinite time, because there always was nothingness, and for that nothingness to concentrate it's energy into a point by a collapse would be an acceleration, time times time. t^2. (how far into the past would you need that acceleration to be triggered a la the "butterfly in the Amazon idea"?)
    The uniqueness of the time dimension, or timeline defined by a beginning and subsequent positions in space, is the big difference between our time and spatial experiences.
    We can have a choice in moving our spatial position (within monetary and immigration realities) but we can not escape the movement through time. Time is a more profound human experience than anything else, trust me, ( I have managed nearly 90 turns of the earth's orbit.

    By one definition, we are the universe's way of knowing itself. so: our perspective counts, and:

    Your state of nothingness collapsing , our experience, the expansion of the universe's growth in size aka movement through time, favour the model of an infinite past, infinite future, an expanding sphere membrane that we inhabit moving through it. while
    Allowing your realistic minimalist idea of measuring the duration/ distance in our neighbourhood.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2018
  15. nebel Valued Senior Member

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    I am picking up on the illustration of spacetime being deformed like a rubber sheet by a heavy ball. funnels like that make excellent demonstrations of balls rolling at higher speeds in closer orbits too). Extrapolating from that I assume that each of the 4 components are stressed and warped individually, and removing the space dimension would still leave time influenced, and if so, into the times before the BB and into the immediate future we are moving into.
    The model for illustration purposes deducts one space dimension from the zero thickness spherical membrane and uses it to picture time as an all encompassing nebel by nebel. In some views it is even easier to see the results if you remove one more space dimension and consider a great circle section, the paper and circular line image. seeing is believing.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2018
  16. nebel Valued Senior Member

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    Seattle, in the ESM model, the universe would be ~ 87 billion come from inflation? light years measured in a great circle diameter, where does your additional 6 billion come from inflation?
    predictions ?
     
  17. nebel Valued Senior Member

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    NE: on the membrane, a black hole would form a very stressed region, and if gravity is high enough, it would stop in time, not moving through time away from the BB any more. It would be a funnel on a radius. Stuck on the radius, it would still contain the information that fell into it , thoroughly spaghettified by tidal effects of course.so:
    A black hole would be a place in the model where information about the past would be held, and of course in the radiation that keeps circulating in the membrane.
    If black holes evaporate , that information would become radiation too. The funnel not becoming deeper, being smoothed out, with mass, gravity gone eventually.
    ESM model more compatible with mainstream SR science than you give it credit for.
     
  18. Seattle Valued Senior Member

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    Inflation and acceleration.
     
  19. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    1 quantum moment.

    How can there be infinite time? I can see that time can be infinitely created in a permittive condition, but time is associated with duration of "something", not the duration of nothing.
    In your scenario of a separate dimension of time, i.e. "something", how would you measure the duration of time?
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2018
  20. nebel Valued Senior Member

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    Time need not to be hacked into moments, from Plank moments in time to greater lengths. We might be given limited time to accomplish a certain task. I am thinking of time as a unlimited, infinite fundamental realm, It is only in our universe that it has become appropriated, acquired by moving through it, from a point of start topossible finish. In infinity, there is no need to measure it, until the quantum moment of the happening of the BB you mentioned came along. In mho, it was a longer process.
    From the BB on, the universe, in the model in the form of a spherical membrane has been expanding through time ever since. interesting details developing in the process, pictured in 2 space curved dimensions, and time pictured in the 3rd.
    A demotion for time, being moved from No.1 to 3. better than mainstream science though, , where it is an afterthought, no.4.
     
  21. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    I see this realm as an unlimited, infinite fundamental "timeless permittive condition"
    I see change as moving through the permittive condition acquiring time as a product of duration or geometric measurement.
    In infinity time cannot be measured, because it is meaningless, IMO. (Ockham's razor).
    And in the absence of time, a quantum change would be the beginning of countable time associated with the event and its subsequent deterministic physical (or probabilistic) evolution.
    Again, I see this expansion as allowed by a permittive condition and creating "spacetime" in that very process. But now we are already talking about the existing and expanding universe. I am not disputing the concept of "spacetime".
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2018
  22. nebel Valued Senior Member

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    Thank you, It is not that the expanding membrane containing all the universe could not expand at different rates on it's movement through time away from the big bang, simple geometry kept clear of accelerations, the GR.
     
  23. nebel Valued Senior Member

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    That definition is probably better than mine. The past is the past, I am more interested in the future, the outside of the membrane

    We are close to agreeing here, because acquiring time has the connotation of moving through it, covering it conquering it , in my mind as an existing territory. not creating it from scratch as you might picture it. That permittive condition stretches into infinity into the future. but based on the model, time might sense that something is coming as the expanding membrane gets nearer. no, Time is not some kind of a sentient being, but if influenced by velocity, gravity as part of spacetime GR, , might be influenced past the point where space stops.
     

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